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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Extreme case of opening obsession (Read 25200 times)
brabo
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #34 - 04/24/14 at 09:24:19
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RdC wrote on 04/24/14 at 08:59:39:

League chess in London isn't FIDE rated for various reasons, one being the necessity for three hour sessions as matches are played after work on weekdays.

This year i also started to play games with only 1h KO simply because I don't manage to play a sufficient amount of interesting standard games . Friday I even subscribe myself for a handicap tournament (time handicap linked to the rating) just to get sufficient challenges and stay active (besides having fun of course). 
Ratings or improvement play clearly little or no role anymore in those type of tournaments.
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #33 - 04/24/14 at 09:08:54
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As Miki is already close to 2000, thinking today what happens if he does achieve the goal of improvement is not silly. I wished somebody warned me when I was trying to improve without realizing that I was just making it very difficult for myself to find interesting opponents. 
Do you love travelling, do you have the means for travelling (car, money, time,...) ?
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #32 - 04/24/14 at 08:59:39
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MartinC wrote on 04/24/14 at 08:43:18:
I think it changes at ~2200 even, certainly for England. You've still got stuff like the 4NCL/British etc I suppose but you've got to travel a lot for that. The local competitions would definitely start running out a bit.


It's only really in London that you can consistently play that standard of opposition without having to travel very much. In the 4NCL, if a two hour journey is acceptable, its venues in central to southern England have a lot of players within the catchment area.

League chess in London isn't FIDE rated for various reasons, one being the necessity for three hour sessions as matches are played after work on weekdays.
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #31 - 04/24/14 at 08:43:18
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I think it changes at ~2200 even, certainly for England. You've still got stuff like the 4NCL/British etc I suppose but you've got to travel a lot for that. The local competitions would definitely start running out a bit.

Some of the really strong ameteurs do just seem to like winning though Smiley If you like that then no problem!

At the level a bit below that, you end up where there's very few players you 'have' to lose to, but also some who are quite clearly stronger than me and a whole batch of rough peers on either side.

Improvement is still worth it of course, because if you're playing at a level notably below your potential you'll just frustrate yourself. Obssession with it over other things? Probably not.
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #30 - 04/24/14 at 08:26:25
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ReneDescartes wrote on 04/23/14 at 15:34:20:
In almost every game we play, we have memorized x moves of theory, but on analyzing our game it turns out we have been following previous games until move x+a, where a is often quite large.


I would imagine that's the experience of many players, particularly those who try to study the underlying themes of typical positions rather than exact sequences.

It's just the beginners and super GMs who will find the new paths. The beginners obviously because they don't know what has gone before and the GMs because they aren't going to trust lines that haven't been played at their level of understanding, no matter what an author might have written about it.

Quote:

Would you be afraid of a tactically and strategically weaker player who is booked?


You might worry about going into a tactical melee where you weren't sure of the normal moves, particularly one where there was only one safe but obscure path through. Thinking about Kings Gambit players in particular, in part they are bluffing and trying to get their opponents to play inferior moves to "avoid book". In practice when confronted with main line defences, they can be the ones to find the lines where the annotations would start "dubious is" or "losing is"
  
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brabo
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #29 - 04/24/14 at 05:36:09
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Gerry1970 wrote on 04/24/14 at 00:26:01:
Hello:

Maybe I misread the article but it seems to be saying don't get too high as you will run out of good opponents and will then have to try and travel to international tournaments. 2200/2300 was mentioned. Many of us are so far from this!

Nevertheless the idea of continuing to improve is an interesting one. Say you are at 1900. And want to return to chess and improve. Many of us associate this with the rating system. Overall it is the best measure over time of our level. It is very hard to play competitively and ignore the rating. Admittedly this affects the amount of fun.

But what does one do? If you are 1900 and don't focus on your game (openings/middlegame/edngame) do you still go and play in tournaments. Surely that gets old quickly. Over time you will beat the same people and lose to the same higher-rated opponents.

I am really interested in this question.

Gerry

Running out of good opponents is certainly something which I encountered as +2300 player. It is one of the main-reasons why this year I only achieved to play 13 rated games (for national rating while only 11 of them for fide). On my Dutch blog I wrote an article about the increasing difficulties to find interesting opponents: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/09/inactiviteit.html

I know many club-players playing the same opponents for decades and having fun while not caring about their ratings. I am often jealous as that kind of fun is something that I can't obtain anymore.
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #28 - 04/24/14 at 00:26:01
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Hello:

Maybe I misread the article but it seems to be saying don't get too high as you will run out of good opponents and will then have to try and travel to international tournaments. 2200/2300 was mentioned. Many of us are so far from this!

Nevertheless the idea of continuing to improve is an interesting one. Say you are at 1900. And want to return to chess and improve. Many of us associate this with the rating system. Overall it is the best measure over time of our level. It is very hard to play competitively and ignore the rating. Admittedly this affects the amount of fun.

But what does one do? If you are 1900 and don't focus on your game (openings/middlegame/edngame) do you still go and play in tournaments. Surely that gets old quickly. Over time you will beat the same people and lose to the same higher-rated opponents.

I am really interested in this question.

Gerry
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #27 - 04/23/14 at 19:54:19
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Miki wrote on 04/23/14 at 19:33:19:


I don't like to study openings but I would like to improve my play and rating as much as possible. I guess these 2 preferences don't go too well together. Smiley

While improving the play and the rating sounds great, it also is often the cause why people forget to just enjoy playing.
The Britisch GM Nigel Davies often writes interesting articles on his site and a recent one was about England's retired GMs. He summed up a long list of GMs not playing anymore: http://chessimprover.com/englands-retired-gms/
These players surely have worked very hard to get to the top and for what? 
Another related interesting article is http://chessimprover.com/can-you-improve-too-much/

So don't fall in this trap of focusing too much on improvement as many players already did !
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #26 - 04/23/14 at 19:33:19
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brabo wrote on 04/23/14 at 18:36:54:

If you don't like to study openings and you have no goals to become a master then you can as well just ignore theory and play exclusively the hippo.


I don't like to study openings but I would like to improve my play and rating as much as possible. I guess these 2 preferences don't go too well together. Smiley
I've been looking around for easy solutions for a long time, bought tons of opening books, only to realize that all these obscure lines are more or less suspect. At least on long-term basis, if I am ever going to significantly improve in the future, and that would certainly be my goal if I seriously take up chess again.
Thanks for the translation, MNb's suggestions look interesting, I will take a look at them.
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #25 - 04/23/14 at 18:36:54
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On the Dutch version of my blog, I published the article a week earlier and got a very interesting reply from MNb: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2014/04/universele-systemen.html?showComment=13...

I try to translate:
"A nice combination is also, if one can spend a bit more time:

1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.e4 (4.g3 Nd7 5.Bg2 e5 and 6...Ne7; 4.Nf3 Nd7 and 5...e5; 4.e3 f5 becomes a good Leningrader) Nd7 5.Nf3 (5.f4 e5) e5 6.Be2 Ngf6 7.O-O O-O 8.Re1 (8.Be3 Ng4) c6 9.Bf1 a5 10.Rb1 Ng4!? and here some homework is necessary as it is very rare. The point is 11.h3 exd4 12.Nxd4 Qb6 with threats against f2 and Nc3.

1.c4 g6 2.Nc3 Bg7 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 e5 5.d3 (5.Nf3 f5 6.d4 e4) f5 6.e4 (5.Nf3 Nf6 6.O-O O-O) Nf6 7.Nge2 O-O 8.O-O (Botvinnik-system) c6 or Nc6.

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 (3.c4 d6 see above; 3.f4 d6 4.Nf3 c5 5.d5 Nf6 6.Nc3; else the Hippo) d6
a) 4.f4 Nc6 (a pure Hippo again doesn't look very good, white follows the scheme of the Grand Prix Attack) 5.Be3 e6 6.Nf3 Nge7;
b) 4.Be3 c6 5.a4 (else 5...b5 with more counterplay than the Hippo) a5 6.Pf3 Pa6;
c) else the Hippo.

This is pretty waterproof, although complete equality can never be guaranteed."

If this looks still too much then maybe starting with 1...b6 2...Bb7 inviting Nc3 can be a remedy. In the article of the German FM Stefan Bücker: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss54.pdf this is mentioned as the preferred choice of e.g the expert Maurits Wind.

Finally I also want to add that one has to make a balanced choice of what kind of risks are acceptable and how much time one really wants to spend. Personally I believe with a national rating of 1900-2000 and I assume almost no games in the database that you take very little risk by playing exclusively the hippo against your peers. I mean your results will very likely not be much different if you would study mainstream theory.

If you don't like to study openings and you have no goals to become a master then you can as well just ignore theory and play exclusively the hippo.
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #24 - 04/23/14 at 16:11:36
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brabo wrote on 04/23/14 at 14:54:21:
For people having the opposite of opening obsession, I recommend to read my latest blogarticle: http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2014/04/universal-systems.html

Thanks, interesting article!
First of all I should say that while I am obsessively detailed and perfectionist when studying opening I in fact hate that characteristic of mine and would prefer if I could see the bigger picture and forget about the unimportant details sometimes. Also I hate memorizing opening and would love to find some easy-to-play systems. But so far my search hasn't resulted with anything strong and I have come to conclusion that I should just learn some regular openings.
I have experimented with universal systems in the past. Hyppo can definitely be a good weapon, I have Andrew Martin's book on it which is very good, and also the chapter on Hyppo from Tiger's Modern is fantastic.
But there is a problem: if white goes for the e4-d4-c4 set-up I hate my life. Smiley
Even harder is when he postpones Nc3 a bit and you are unsure whether he is gonna go for c4 or not, you continue your Hyppo approach and boom there goes c4. Very unpleasant to face as black, and the only reason I stopped with Hyppo.
But maybe someone has some ideas to counter this set-up for white? Hyppo is nice to have as back-up weapon, and I feel I know a lot about it thanks to the above mentioned books. Problem is: Andrew Martin doesn't cover e4-d4-c4 setups at all, while Tiger suggest going for Averbakh variation for which he admits he doesn't like it (or play it) too much (and I don't really like it myself, as well).
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #23 - 04/23/14 at 15:34:20
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I read the paper. The authors are quite forthright in outlining their logic:  

Quote:
The central methodological assumption of this paper is that the player who first departs from a theoretical opening line (player of interest, PI) knows the theory up to the point of rupture. For example, assume that in the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6, white plays 3.a4. Assuming that 3.a4 is a novelty, knowledge is 4 ply deep. [...] Note that the goal of the present paper is to estimate the amount of rote opening knowledge, rather than to evaluate the quality of the novelty and to assess problem-solving skills. Thus, there was no point in discarding part of the data (i.e., bad novelties).


Bad novelties, it seems to me, might indicate that the preceding moves were memorized, as the player erred as soon as he was out of book. At any rate, the authors support their assumption in the following way:
Quote:
The probability of playing a sequence of theoretical moves by each side randomly choosing a legal move or randomly choosing a master-game-like (mgl) move (see below) is negligible. Based on the estimates for legal moves (n = 32.3) and mgl moves (n = 1.76) given in [1], [14], the corresponding probabilities for Masters are (1/32.3)18.01 = 6.596×10−28, and (1/1.76)18.01 = 3.787×10−5, respectively.

The master-game-like move idea would seem to be the authors' best chance to defend themselves. But this estimate turns out to be a simple mathematical assumption, namely that there are three master-like alternatives at each ply. Thus at move 10 there must be 3^20 or about 3.4 billion "master-like" sequences. The theory in a 3.4-million game database would then be 50 times smaller than that (3.4 billion/3.4 million, divided by 20 ply) even if every game were different from every other at move 10. As it is, of course, many, many games share the same path to move 10, so the database is many more times smaller. The authors conclude that unless good players were following memorized theory they would be for the most part choosing "master-like" moves that were not in the database.

So there you have it. The whole study is founded on assumptions that each of us knows from personal experience to be false. In almost every game we play, we have memorized x moves of theory, but on analyzing our game it turns out we have been following previous games until move x+a, where a is often quite large.

The authors do consider the possibility that their assumption is wrong: Quote:
it is possible that some players played theoretical moves without knowing it, just by applying general heuristics. However, as suggested by the estimates provided earlier about the likelihood of finding a theoretical sequence by chance (e.g., 3.787×10−5 by sampling from master-game like moves), we do not expect this effect to be large, even if we cannot rule it out completely. Regularly finding theoretical moves without prior knowledge would imply that players play near perfectly in complicated situations, but we know that players of similar skill levels commit multiple errors during a game.

Again, we all know from experience that this is false. The authors seem to picture every opening moment as being as sharp and unclear as a middlegame from the Botvinnik Semi-Slav. It is not necessary to play incredibly well to reproduce theory "from applying general heuristics."  A lot of theory is just obvious. A lot more is natural. If a 4-move general liquidation of rooks on the only open file occurs in theory, the players must have memorized those 8 ply, because their play was near-perfect in a complicated situation! And the player who follows the Back side of the Milner-Barry gambit without knowing it after 3.e5 c5 and wins the d-pawn after Bd3 must be a genius.

The authors incorrectly employ a statistical test called an analysis of covariance (ANCOVA): Quote:
An ANCOVA was carried out on opening knowledge with skill as the independent variable and length, color and relative skill as covariates. As predicted, the PI's skill level significantly affected opening knowledge, F(1, 76555) = 822.11, p<.01, MSE = 43.01, showing that opening knowledge varies as a function of skill.  This is a crucial result showing that chess players accumulate static knowledge that guides them in the first phase of the game.

But this test must not under any circumstances be used when the independent variable could affect the covariate! So not only the authors' interpretations, but also their mathematics, depend on the incorrect assumption that ELO strength cannot affect the rate of playing book moves.

Then the authors move from correlation to causation, as Stefan suggests, making another scientific howler without apparent embarrassment. Quote:
In general, our results add further support to [a] view emphasizing the role of declarative knowledge in high levels of expertise; indeed, they support the importance of monochrestic and rote knowledge.


Would you be afraid of a tactically and strategically weaker player who is booked?


« Last Edit: 04/23/14 at 18:42:06 by ReneDescartes »  
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brabo
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #22 - 04/23/14 at 14:54:21
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For people having the opposite of opening obsession, I recommend to read my latest blogarticle: http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2014/04/universal-systems.html
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #21 - 04/23/14 at 11:20:42
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Bonsai wrote on 04/23/14 at 10:07:00:
[quote author=596E757F6874794E79781C0 link=1398047022/15#15 date=1398231914] I suspect that most of the GMs that got the position on the board did not know theory or the previous games, but more likely understood the structure.


That can be a circular argument, because some at least might have "understood" the structure by familiarity with the old Alekhine game and others from that era. 

Again I'm not sure whether it's strictly opening theory, but if you see a game, perhaps in live coverage, where one top GM convincingly defeats another top GM with a fresh opening idea, it can as a 2000-2100 player be worth punting against an IM. They don't have the all-seeing knowledge you might expect and may not have caught up with the new idea. 
  
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Re: Extreme case of opening obsession
Reply #20 - 04/23/14 at 10:50:07
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/23/14 at 07:02:52:
GMs follow established theory for dozens of moves as a kind of peaceful agreement. 


That's true of course, but at the really highest level, players write their own theory and it can be part of the match strategy to surprise the opposition with new ideas and reassessments. We saw in the Candidates tournament that players were dipping into the rich heritage of opening ideas and trying ones which in England anyway, we usually associated with players in the lowest league divisions.
  
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