Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line (Read 13936 times)
TonyRo
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #12 - 09/16/14 at 17:38:12
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Yeeeeeah that's the one - I couldn't find it because I didn't search in General.  Angry
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #11 - 09/14/14 at 06:20:33
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/30/14 at 12:53:39:
We had discussed this line a few years ago at another thread where i think that i have posted another "reutation" and "CHessexplained" agreed! I don't remember where is this though... Smiley


I think you're talking about this thread starting around here:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1326379027/135
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #10 - 07/30/14 at 12:53:39
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We had discussed this line a few years ago at another thread where i think that i have posted another "reutation" and "CHessexplained" agreed! I don't remember where is this though... Smiley
  
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TN
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #9 - 07/30/14 at 09:08:17
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I came to the same conclusions 2-3 years ago myself - I couldn't find any real improvement for White over the Nakamura games and looked elsewhere. My knowledge is a bit out of date, but I still think the Bayonet is White's best try to prove something in the Mar del Plata. 

Kaufman also gave a suggestion of 8.Be3, but he didn't cover a simple way for Black to equalise (see Kotronias's 'GM Battle Manual' for the antidote). Actually, I think other methods to hold the balance have been discovered since as well. 

  

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TonyRo
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #8 - 07/30/14 at 02:47:57
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I agree - the real problem for White (to me at least) is that the system tries to do too much. If you want to play Nb5, I don't think you need to preempt it with Rc1, and if you want to play c5, you can play it right away, or prepare it with Rc1 & b4, but without Nb5. Both plans together is a bit inconsistent.
  
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #7 - 07/30/14 at 01:09:19
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I was looking at this line this past weekend.  Of course, the main move for white is the pawn sacrifice with 14 c5 Nxc5 15 b4 Na6.  And, further, I don't see why White should play 13 Rc1 if he intends 14 Nb5.

The big advantage of getting ...Nf6 in is that it discourages Nb5 because ...g4 comes right away (or after some pawn moves on the Queenside to prevent the Bc8 from being traded).

I was looking at adopting this for White (13 Rc1, that is) but eventually decided to stick with my Nd3 / Bd2 setup because this is all too double edged.
  
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tony37
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #6 - 07/29/14 at 19:52:13
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all right, I'll admit that a6 isn't that great combined with b6 and after looking at some more games there seem to be ways to defend, for example https://www.iccf.com/game?id=392531, but I still think black has more chances than white
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #5 - 07/29/14 at 18:23:59
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I agree that ...Rf7 is a very useful move in most MDP positions, but I don't think I totally agree that ...a6 and ...b6 are good moves in general for Black. You certainly wouldn't play them if you weren't forced to do so, which is a sign that in general perhaps they're slight concessions. Whether or not they are more useful that b4 and the free tempo from Nc3-b5-c3 is certainly up for debate. I might rather White have the knight on b5 for instance!

I think it's silly to judge winning/losing via such simple (and one-sided) deductions in some of the most complicated positions chess has to offer, but to each their own I suppose! Maybe you're right - Vass posted some really nice wins!

tony37 wrote on 07/29/14 at 17:52:32:

a competent White doesn't play this line


This is an awfully audacious claim given the pedigree behind this line. It's likely not super-challenging for Black theoretically, but that's also very easy to say when we sit at our desks chatting over the internet while strong GMs like Giri and Lenderman are out there actually playing high-level chess!

tony37 wrote on 07/29/14 at 17:52:32:

Analysing these lines can be very fun


With this I agree 110%! I have even played 9...Ne8 against the Bayonet in ICCF games just to analyze Mar Del Plata type positions! 

Grin
  
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tony37
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #4 - 07/29/14 at 17:52:32
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I've been thinking a bit more about this and the idea that the sequence 14.Nb5 b6 15.b4 a6 16.Nc3 Rf7 is somehow best play for White is totally ridiculous (and I'm not exaggerating)
let's compare the position after 13...Ng6 and the one after 16...Rf7:
- White has made one move (b4), while Black has made three (Rf7, b6, a6)
- b4 is only useful in preparing c5, without that it is generally a harmful/weakening move because it blocks the white queen after Qb3, and a queenside pawnstorm is about the most useless thing White can do (because as you know, Black is attacking some vitally important piece)
- but c5 didn't need to be prepared anyway, 14.c5 is a good move and White manages to draw here (Wink) because 14...Nxc5 15.b4 Na6 is more or less forced and the knight is too far away from where it wants to be (f6) and g4 is difficult to prepare
- let's suppose Black plays b6 after this and now it can be argued that Black's b6 is actually more useful than White's b4 because after 14.b4 b6 15.c5 (what else?) Black can play 15...Nf6 because after 16.cxd6 cxd6 17.Nb5 there is no pawn hanging on a7 (not because this pawn is so important but a knight on a7 attacks the light-squared bishop, which is essential to push the g-pawn)
- but it gets even worse: White has simply passed two moves, maybe he was looking at the computer evaluation and out of generosity wanted to give Black some chances to survive
- Black on the other hand played a6, a moderately useful move because it stops Nb5; one might argue that b6 is weakened now but there's still a pawn on c7 (without that, Na4 can be irritating) and the only way to do something about that involves playing c5, after which the b6-pawn can be exchanged anyway
- moreover Black played Rf7, which is 100% useful: it covers c7, it prepares a future Rg7 or Rh7, and it makes room for Bf8 (but sometimes this isn't necessary and Bh6 can be played)

so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Black is objectively winning after this 

TonyRo wrote on 07/29/14 at 17:20:08:
If you're active in CC, you may have two approaches: that an easy draw with Black is exactly what you want, and that pressing your luck against a competent White player is risky, or that you'd rather just complicate the game as much as possible and go for the win.

a competent White doesn't play this line
and it would be a complete shame not to try to win when your opponent plays the Mar del Plata, simply analysing these lines can be very fun, I still remember stuff like Houdini going from +2 to -9 in mere seconds
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #3 - 07/29/14 at 17:20:08
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I am familiar with the Nakamura line, and I agree that this line is also good enough for Black. Thanks for the extra games and ideas Vass! 

The main point of this thread was to show that Black has a very straightforward and obvious way to equalize, that being ...Nf6 and ...g4 straight away. It doesn't get any more basic than this.

If you're active in CC, you may have two approaches: that an easy draw with Black is exactly what you want, and that pressing your luck against a competent White player is risky, or that you'd rather just complicate the game as much as possible and go for the win. In either case, you have a possible path to equality here - Kaufman's variation certainly isn't a possible refutation as billed in the book.

Grin
  
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #2 - 07/29/14 at 15:44:31
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TonyRo wrote on 07/29/14 at 02:49:22:
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Rc1 Ng6 14.Nb5, the best line appears to be 14...b6! (with the pressure on a7 this seems closed to forced - Black can't allow Nxa7) 15.b4 and now the easiest is 15...Nf6! - a move not examined by Kaufman. Any KID player worth his salt knows that when White tosses the knight out to b5 too early in these Mar Del Plata lines it allows Black to cheat in ...g4 without ...h5 on account of the weakened e4-pawn. Not only does this save a move, but the h5-square is very useful down the road for the f6-knight.

my reasoning would be (based on some correspondence KID games I played) that this may be good enough for a draw, but if you want to win (and that's why you are playing the KID) playing h5 is needed, after h4 the knight can still go to h5
I also don't think that saving a tempo is that important in the Mar del Plata
  
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Vass
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Re: Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
Reply #1 - 07/29/14 at 14:47:39
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I tend to believe Nakamura than Kaufman. After Giri-Nakamura, Reggio Emilia 30.12.2011, the second player played the same variation against Kasimdzhanov in London GP 22.09.2012 and even made a small correction (18...bxc5) to his previous play. Both games he won. And in both he used 15....a6 and not 15...Nf6. As long as the engines are irrelevant to give a proper evaluation here, I think that following Nakamura is good enough, at least until someone proves the contrary against him.  Wink
  
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TonyRo
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Debunking the Kaufman/Kacheishvili Line
07/29/14 at 02:49:22
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I'm obviously pretty late to the party, but I've been updating my KID notes now that I have some time, and noticed that Kaufman's recommendation in The Kaufman Repertoire for Black & White has been relatively popular within the last couple of years (and not examined by Vigorito in his books - I'm guessing at the time of writing it was a very rare sideline). Calling this variation a refutation is insulting, but what can you do?

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Rc1 Ng6 14.Nb5, the best line appears to be 14...b6! (with the pressure on a7 this seems closed to forced - Black can't allow Nxa7) 15.b4 and now the easiest is 15...Nf6! - a move not examined by Kaufman. Any KID player worth his salt knows that when White tosses the knight out to b5 too early in these Mar Del Plata lines it allows Black to cheat in ...g4 without ...h5 on account of the weakened e4-pawn. Not only does this save a move, but the h5-square is very useful down the road for the f6-knight. Now critical is 16.c5 g4! 17.cxd6 cxd6 18.Nc7 Rb8 (without b4 and ...b6 inserted, 19.Bxa7 would be crushing, winning an exchange and allowing ...g3 to be met by h3. Instead 18...g3? 19.Nxa8 is probably losing for Black) 19.Ne6 Bxe6 20.dxe6 Kh8!? (20...g3 also looks fine) 21.Bc4 g3! 22.hxg3 fxg3 23.Bxg3 Nh5 24.Bf2 Qg5! gives Black good counterplay on the kingside. The only game to occur in said variation is below:



It's unusual that Black can allow Nc7-e6 and not be much worse, but here it works because Black's attack picks up steam really fast, and ...g3 comes with tempo so h3 can't plug up the kingside. Black's success in the above game almost makes me contemplate retreating the knight with 16.Nc3. An interesting variation!

What are your thoughts? What did I miss?


  
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