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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!? (Read 45711 times)
TonyRo
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #17 - 08/17/14 at 18:26:09
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kylemeister wrote on 08/17/14 at 18:14:16:
not to mention that "GM Fisher" should also be (sic) ...


True!  Shocked
  
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #16 - 08/17/14 at 18:14:16
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not to mention that "GM Fisher" should also be (sic) ...
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #15 - 08/17/14 at 17:51:59
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Grobmeister wrote on 08/15/14 at 19:43:52:


Hi Tony, being from Cleveland, you probably have heard of IM Calvin Blocker who is a close friend of mine and a personal mentor for over 10 years. He taught me alot about chess and I owe a large part of my success in the game to him. Perhaps you have even participated in some of my chess tournaments I sponsored for 15 years at Edgewater Beach? Calvin also instilled in me a deep respect for the game, of which I take quite seriously and is not just a "phase" that I am going through. So I wouldn't be so quick to judge a person off the cuff, especially when you know virtually nothing about them, as it is indeed very disrespectful homeboy. 



I know Calvin well. I've never played in the Edgewater tournaments (I don't play in many, but I heard good things about these). None of this means a particularly large amount with respect to the current topic - you can have a chess playing friend and sponsor tournaments out of a love for the game without ever amounting to anything as a player, and that's not bad! Rex Sinquefield is one of the richest people in the US and has done more for the game in this country than perhaps anyone else, and he's a 1600 player. 

When you say things like, "For me, conventional lines are redundant and boring", and "But gambits, for the most part, do not appeal to more sensible, defensive, "prophalactic" (sic) styled players such as GM Fisher, whose approach was to sit back and defend while waiting for an opportunity to strike...", it undermines your point about respecting the game and knowing a lot about it. 

There are non-gambit openings far, far richer than anything the Englund has to offer, e.g. the KID Mar Del Plata, any of the popular Open Sicilians like the Najdorf, Dragon, Sveshnikov, Taimanov, the entire Semi-Slav Complex, the Ruy Lopez, the list goes on and on. To call those redundant and boring is an absolute abomination and an insult to the game. And to call Fischer a defensive, lurking player shows you've never studied his games seriously. You've certainly got a fascinating perspective on the game, that's for sure.

  
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #14 - 08/17/14 at 15:58:11
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The englund gambit is just garbage. While clearly 1...g5 takes the cake as black's worst response to d4, e5 is a strong contender for second place. Maybe h5 and Nh6 also have something to say about it, though.
  
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #13 - 08/17/14 at 11:52:53
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Grobmeister wrote on 08/15/14 at 19:43:52:
instilled in me a deep respect for the game, of which I take quite seriously

You show the opposite with

Grobmeister wrote on 08/14/14 at 20:04:04:
Surely, any gambit can be termed an immediate "refutation".

The Najdorf Poisoned Pawn and the Marshall Gambit against the Triangle are anything but refuted. Anyone who places the Englund Gambit in the same category as these two doesn't show respect for the gambit aspect of the game.
Showing respect means recognizing "the Englund Gambit has a bad reputation; let's find out why and see what we can do about it." You have made no such effort. Yet?

Before you ask: I have played all kind of gambits for more than 30 years.
  

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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #12 - 08/17/14 at 09:26:14
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Grobmeister wrote on 08/15/14 at 19:43:52:
Hi Tony, being from Cleveland, you probably have heard of IM Calvin Blocker who is a close friend of mine and a personal mentor for over 10 years.

It seems every Moody has their Alburt.  Grin
  
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Grobmeister
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #11 - 08/16/14 at 02:10:16
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Jedi, simply put, I'm not a chess romantic. For me, conventional lines of play are redundant and boring. Perhaps that is where you get my "so what" attitude. But it's really not like that, I just enjoy innovating the game by breaking new ground and could care less about what anyone thinks about my choice of play. I get a kick out of watching a player who may be as much as 200 points stronger than me squirm in their seat perplexed while trying to deal with what I throw at them. I play to win, and I do whatever it takes to win. Cool

SWJediknight wrote on 08/15/14 at 23:45:31:
This is quite a common area for debate and I can live on either side of the "fence".  I think that specialising in unorthodox (typically dubious but trappy) opening lines is a legitimate way to get enjoyment out of chess.  They can be interesting to analyse and have the merit of often leading to unusual positions which catch opponents out.  Even for more "serious" players, it can be useful to develop an understanding of why these openings are objectively bad, and also why some of them are often successful in practice (most lines following 1.d4 e5 fall into both categories).

But I quite often see discussions on unorthodox lines descend into chaos where fanatical supporters argue, "Yes, this line is dubious, but so what?  Practice!", implying that if one can score 80% with it in rapid games then it makes it an objectively "good" opening, and opponents argue that if it's dubious (and maybe even refuted outright) then it isn't worth analysing seriously.  Those who are interested in analysing these lines seriously can then be tarnished by association with either group. 

What concerns me about Grobmeister is a tone which suggests a "So what?  Practice!" mentality, though I hope I am wrong.

  
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #10 - 08/15/14 at 23:45:31
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This is quite a common area for debate and I can live on either side of the "fence".  I think that specialising in unorthodox (typically dubious but trappy) opening lines is a legitimate way to get enjoyment out of chess.  They can be interesting to analyse and have the merit of often leading to unusual positions which catch opponents out.  Even for more "serious" players, it can be useful to develop an understanding of why these openings are objectively bad, and also why some of them are often successful in practice (most lines following 1.d4 e5 fall into both categories).

But I quite often see discussions on unorthodox lines descend into chaos where fanatical supporters argue, "Yes, this line is dubious, but so what?  Practice!", implying that if one can score 80% with it in rapid games then it makes it an objectively "good" opening, and opponents argue that if it's dubious (and maybe even refuted outright) then it isn't worth analysing seriously.  Those who are interested in analysing these lines seriously can then be tarnished by association with either group. 

What concerns me about Grobmeister is a tone which suggests a "So what?  Practice!" mentality, though I hope I am wrong.
  
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Grobmeister
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #9 - 08/15/14 at 19:43:52
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Hi Tony, being from Cleveland, you probably have heard of IM Calvin Blocker who is a close friend of mine and a personal mentor for over 10 years. He taught me alot about chess and I owe a large part of my success in the game to him. Perhaps you have even participated in some of my chess tournaments I sponsored for 15 years at Edgewater Beach? Calvin also instilled in me a deep respect for the game, of which I take quite seriously and is not just a "phase" that I am going through. So I wouldn't be so quick to judge a person off the cuff, especially when you know virtually nothing about them, as it is indeed very disrespectful homeboy. And if you have any other snide remarks, please give me the courtesy of a PM the next time. Thank you.

Diddos... Roll Eyes

TonyRo wrote on 08/15/14 at 14:39:53:
I would just let him go. I mean no disrespect by this, but judging by his post, he's just getting into the game more seriously. Everyone goes through "that phase".

  
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TonyRo
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #8 - 08/15/14 at 14:39:53
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I would just let him go. I mean no disrespect by this, but judging by his post, he's just getting into the game more seriously. Everyone goes through "that phase".
  
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #7 - 08/15/14 at 14:36:46
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The key word in my comment was "unsound". I doubt Tal would approve of 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 d6. The Albin or the Schara-Hennig, on the other hand...
  
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #6 - 08/15/14 at 09:06:58
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Forgive me, I forget who said it, but I recall a GM once stating that "a gambit is just an excuse to give up a pawn." I had to chuckle when I heard that. Gambits appeal to "swashbucklers" who enjoy an exciting and daring game. And a gambit is a sacrifice which is an art form in chess. GM Tal for example, was a master of sacrifice and played a very risky, daring game. I was astonished by a game he played once where he gave up his entire queenside of pawns in favor for open lanes of mobility and attack and delivered a shocking defeat in under 30 moves. Although brave, he certainly wasn't a foolish man rushing blindly into battle. He understood and mastered sacrifice. But gambits, for the most part, do not appeal to more sensible, defensive, "prophalactic" styled players such as GM Fisher, whose approach was to sit back and defend while waiting for an opportunity to strike. And this is the beauty of Chess. It's complexity allows for varied approaches to the game.

Touché.  Cool

Aziridine wrote on 08/15/14 at 00:08:19:
People who enjoy unsound gambits because they're somehow macho or "daring" remind me of this:

"Grushnitsky has the reputation of an exceptionally brave man. I have seen him in action: he brandishes his sword, he yells, he rushes forward with closed eyes. Somehow, this is not Russian courage!"
- Mikhail Lermontov, A Hero of Our Time

  
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #5 - 08/15/14 at 00:08:19
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People who enjoy unsound gambits because they're somehow macho or "daring" remind me of this:

"Grushnitsky has the reputation of an exceptionally brave man. I have seen him in action: he brandishes his sword, he yells, he rushes forward with closed eyes. Somehow, this is not Russian courage!"
- Mikhail Lermontov, A Hero of Our Time
« Last Edit: 08/15/14 at 01:18:27 by Aziridine »  
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Grobmeister
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #4 - 08/14/14 at 23:25:07
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Some keen insights Jedi, and well received. Thank you. However, keep in mind that this is a blog addressing "Daring Defences" after all. Roll Eyes

SWJediknight wrote on 08/14/14 at 22:17:58:
1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 d6 can be effective at fast time limits (and probably to a higher level than most would like to admit) but it is certainly dubious.  After 3.exd6 Bxd6 Black gets about half a pawn's worth of compensation and practical chances.  The main problem with it is 3.Nf3, when if 3...Bg4 then 4.e4 transposes into a dubious line of the Philidor Defence: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4?! (3...exd4, 3...Nf6) 4.dxe5.  Then I am not convinced that Black has much to show for the pawn after 4...Nd7 5.exd6 Bxd6 6.Nc3.

As for the Queen's Gambit (1.d4 d5 2.c4) it can be side-stepped with the Albin Counter-Gambit, 2...e5.

  
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Re: Englund Gambit 1.d4 e5!?
Reply #3 - 08/14/14 at 22:17:58
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1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 d6 can be effective at fast time limits (and probably to a higher level than most would like to admit) but it is certainly dubious.  After 3.exd6 Bxd6 Black gets about half a pawn's worth of compensation and practical chances.  The main problem with it is 3.Nf3, when if 3...Bg4 then 4.e4 transposes into a dubious line of the Philidor Defence: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4?! (3...exd4, 3...Nf6) 4.dxe5.  Then I am not convinced that Black has much to show for the pawn after 4...Nd7 5.exd6 Bxd6 6.Nc3.

As for the Queen's Gambit (1.d4 d5 2.c4) it can be side-stepped with the Albin Counter-Gambit, 2...e5.
  
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