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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim? (Read 7152 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #14 - 11/20/14 at 04:15:19
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If you can prove that an illegal move was made and you didn't make any move after that, you should be able to claim a win in blitz. 


The pertinent rule is appendix B.3 section c:

B.3
Where supervision is inadequate the following shall apply:
Play shall be governed by the Rapidplay Laws as in Appendix A except where they are overridden by the following Laws of Blitz.
Article 10.2 and Appendix A.4.c do not apply.
An illegal move is completed once the opponent’s clock has been started. The opponent is entitled to claim a win before he has made his own move. However, if the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves, then the claimant is entitled to claim a draw before he has made his own move. Once the opponent has made his own move, an illegal move cannot be corrected unless mutually agreed without intervention of an arbiter.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #13 - 11/19/14 at 19:36:02
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I don't think that I'd count what was said as resignation either, as it was clearly a reaction to a perceived checkmate.  If some other move had been played (such as capturing hanging piece) and a player explaimed "argghh, 0-1 for them" I might think of that as resignation, but not when the person thought they had just lost due to checkmate.   

I don't know blitz rules very well, though.
  
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Scarblac
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #12 - 11/16/14 at 18:55:41
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I am an arbiter (but not a very experienced one), and I would not count this as a resignation. Especially since it would make no sense for you to resign during the brief moment when you thought you had been checkmated -- if that were true, there would have been no point to resigning anymore. So whatever you said, it was very unlikely to be meant as "I resign".

The idea that you have to claim within a few seconds is nonsense.
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #11 - 11/16/14 at 17:23:09
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Whatever about declaring a loss aloud, I would be a little scared of anyone who said that sighing acknowledged defeat.
  
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gwnn
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #10 - 11/15/14 at 17:50:45
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We (in the Netherlands) actually often have slips of paper even for blitz tournaments which both players have to sign, to make reporting scores easier - that would be a clear sign of agreement (a handshake seems like one too). Thanks for all the replies!
  
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fling
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #9 - 11/15/14 at 17:40:22
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Sorry, yes, missed that part! Hm, in blitz. Well, in that case you should have one I guess, since he pressed the clock after an incorrect move.
  
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gwnn
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #8 - 11/15/14 at 16:29:47
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Did you miss the part that this was a blitz game? I'm not sure whether there was any score sheet for the blitz part. There was a score sheet for the results of the long games (4 results, 2-2) but that was to be signed by the captains only.
  
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fling
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #7 - 11/15/14 at 15:37:01
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And normally, isn't both players supposed to sign the score sheets in agreement? In this case, I wouldn't count your statement as a resignation and since you hadn't signed the score sheet, I would think a reasonable referee would ask for the same thing as Tony asked, i.e. go back to the game after Bxh7+.
  
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gwnn
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #6 - 11/15/14 at 12:45:40
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That would have been the wisest thing probably (given that I kind of botched the claim - otherwise I'd have given no second thought to claiming). My opponent actually offered this but I refused. In a team game I was trying to get the maximum for my team, I guess. And I definitely got carried away Smiley
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #5 - 11/15/14 at 12:33:25
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As ...Qxh2 was illegal, why didn't you both go back to the previous position (after Bxh7+) and continue the game? Or was this blitz tournament really so serious?
I know it's possible to get a bit carried away in the heat of the moment, but here the game has barely started.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #4 - 11/15/14 at 10:31:37
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Humm. Probably just about getting away with it this time - think I'd have accepted without question as your opponent when it was pointed out.

It does seem very unclear when things stop: when you stop the clock? What about if at an event where someone will be inputting the game and notices it much later?!!?

I had a vaguely similar thing last season where I had someone resign the move I rather comically stalemated them in a totally winning ending. But we both thought I'd won at the end so think that one was a legitimate win.

Actually pointed out by a team mate spectating that time so just a total mess legally!
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #3 - 11/15/14 at 08:30:06
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Not entirely sure on this, just to get the rules in the thread:

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/?id=124&view=article

B.3.c. An illegal move is completed once the opponent’s clock has been started. The opponent is entitled to claim a win before he has made his own move. However, if the opponent cannot checkmate the player’s king by any possible series of legal moves, then the claimant is entitled to claim a draw before he has made his own move. Once the opponent has made his own move, an illegal move cannot be corrected unless mutually agreed without intervention of an arbiter.

5.1.
a. The game is won by the player who has checkmated his opponent’s king. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the checkmate position was a legal move.
     
b. The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns. This immediately ends the game.

---

The way I interpret the rules (mind you, I'm not an arbiter):
- 5.1.a. doesn't apply (not a legal move)
- You didn't do your own move, so you'd be able to claim (no time limit at all)
- 5.1.b. MIGHT apply - if your statement is the same as a resignation
- There is no way to claim after you have resigned at all (not 3 seconds after the resignation, either), as the game has ended

The question would now be whether "argh, 0-1 for them." counts as a formal resignation.

I would say no, as 
1) This isn't talking to your opponent at all, but rather to your teammates (could also say this as a joke after the opponent plays 1.e4, or whatever - I doubt anyone would register that as a resignation); 
2) The only thing I found regarding resignation procedure in the rules was "The game is won by the player whose opponent declares he resigns.", and your statement seems to me like less of a 'Declaration of Resignation' and more of an 'Expression of Shock' (like shouting "Oh, damn!" as your opponent sacrifices a rook on e6, which you completely overlooked)

Again, I'm not an arbiter, this just looks like the most logical interpretation of the rules to me.
  
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gwnn
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #2 - 11/15/14 at 01:51:58
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FIDE rules. Added to OP as well.
  
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dfan
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Re: Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
Reply #1 - 11/15/14 at 01:34:51
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FIDE or USCF (or other) rules? I'm not sure it would make a difference, but it's good to nail down the context.
  
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gwnn
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Checkmate with illegal move, when can you claim?
11/15/14 at 01:15:15
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I was one of the players here so I will not pretend to write in 3rd person (it may or may not be an objective account of what happened but I'm doing my best to convey facts as agreed by both parties). I had white in this position in a team match, blitz tiebreaks, FIDE rules:

* * * * * * * *
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Black just played Rh6, threatening mate in one. I played Bxh7+ and black replied Qxh2"#", pressing the clock. I was confused for a second, sighed and said out loud "argh, 0-1 for them." Within a fraction of a second I tried to claim, noticing that Qxh2 was illegal. All in all, I would say that me trying to claim was about 3-5 seconds after he'd pressed the clock. My opponent retorted that I "accepted defeat" so it is too late to claim. If it matters at all, we did not shake hands and there was no communication between me and my teammates. There were some who said that from the moment that I sighed it was too late to claim, while others said that I could have claimed even 5 minutes after the game if I have witnesses.

I have looked for this in the rules and online and found nothing on this particular case (there was a thread on this but a slightly different scenario). What should the result be? As it happens, our team would've lost anyway even if I had won this game (it was a tiebreaker in a cup fixture), so the result did not matter.
  
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