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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Expenses of Playing Abroad (Read 11891 times)
Keano
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #16 - 07/21/15 at 18:57:18
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I would love to be a chess "professional" but if you have a family best to stick to the conventional career route. As Bibs commented earlier chess is a great hobby.
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #15 - 06/27/15 at 01:15:03
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I am still curious about IMs and GMs who are maybe between 20 and 30. Do these players usually have a full time job? Or is it normal for the parents to be rich? Til example, is it possible for a 25 year old GM to travel all over the place for tournaments if his or her family is in financial trouble?

Obviously a 25 year old GM who has parents who earn more than 5 million € a year probably can travel more, but does that mean that the less financially healthy one has less chances to improve?
  
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brabo
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #14 - 02/02/15 at 07:51:27
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 02/02/15 at 02:59:13:
Also the other factors, like if one attends university, at any cycle, especially extended, like after undergraduate, postgraduate like Masters, PhD, and postdoctorate where some do not even finish until 35(?!) and then if someone has a full time job. 

Til example, someone who is around 2400 and improving, but does Masters degree or a full-time job, may or may not have a spouse, may or may not have children. Even with a part-time job, how to explain to the human resources that have to take off 1/3rd of the fiscal year to play chess abroad (and not get sacked!)? The cost may or may not break even, and a 2300-2400 probably has less chance than a 2600 who plays abroad in terms of prize win.

If you want to achieve the maximum out of something then you need to make sacrifices. If you don't want to make big sacrifices then it just means that chess isn't so important for you.

My HR clearly told us that we have to choose between our job or chasing our own dreams.
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #13 - 02/02/15 at 02:59:13
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Also the other factors, like if one attends university, at any cycle, especially extended, like after undergraduate, postgraduate like Masters, PhD, and postdoctorate where some do not even finish until 35(?!) and then if someone has a full time job. 

Til example, someone who is around 2400 and improving, but does Masters degree or a full-time job, may or may not have a spouse, may or may not have children. Even with a part-time job, how to explain to the human resources that have to take off 1/3rd of the fiscal year to play chess abroad (and not get sacked!)? The cost may or may not break even, and a 2300-2400 probably has less chance than a 2600 who plays abroad in terms of prize win.
  
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #12 - 02/01/15 at 21:03:27
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Very true I suspect. Also the sorts of competitions you end up playing in up to a certain level really don't need massive levels of preparation.

Even with say the 4NCL - the top UK teams competition - I imagine that  Div 1 is fairly serious/hard work, but below that? 

Definitely in Div 3, yes the games are published online, but the board orders/team compositions shuffle around all over the place and there's little advance warning so all you really need to do is avoid playing the same thing over and over unless you're very sure of it. Div 2 probably somewhere in between.
  
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brabo
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #11 - 02/01/15 at 19:55:37
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One of the big benefits of having an average rating is that you don't need money to play abroad as you can find enough challenges at home. I covered this topic in my last article : http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2015/02/challenges.html
  
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #10 - 01/30/15 at 18:19:59
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/30/15 at 11:26:44:

When I started playing professionally the prizes were much, much larger, and the tournaments much weaker (before the Berlin Wall fell) so I made more money playing chess than being a programmer. Shocked
After that I made a decent living from tournaments with the addition of writing and a lot of club matches (I played for teams in 6 countries).
I guess the World recession hasn't helped, and there always seems to be less tournaments and more strong players. Sad
Chess is a lot less fun now, I'm afraid, as when I started there no computers, so we didn't have to waste much time preparing and could do more enjoyable things! Huh

I only started to play abroad after the fell of the Berlin Wall but I do remember the stories of players living before. Before you even had 2300 players playing professional. The flood of players from East-Europe changed everything. 
In an interview Jan Timman stated "If I had been 18 today, I would not have become a professional player." see http://www.chessvibes.com/?q=reports/jan-timman-tata-gm-group-b-i-dont-have-illu...
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #9 - 01/30/15 at 11:26:44
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Bibs wrote on 01/30/15 at 01:33:52:

Perhaps Tony K can comment in this regard...?


I can remember one or two cases where I played against a GM (from Eastern Europe) who didn't smell very nice (always towards the end of a tournament), but no more.
Personally, I always shower and have clean clothes (!) and I only play in tournaments where they supply a decent hotel and food (or some money) otherwise you can't make enough money from prizes to live.
When I started playing professionally the prizes were much, much larger, and the tournaments much weaker (before the Berlin Wall fell) so I made more money playing chess than being a programmer. Shocked
After that I made a decent living from tournaments with the addition of writing and a lot of club matches (I played for teams in 6 countries).
I guess the World recession hasn't helped, and there always seems to be less tournaments and more strong players. Sad
Chess is a lot less fun now, I'm afraid, as when I started there no computers, so we didn't have to waste much time preparing and could do more enjoyable things! Huh
  
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #8 - 01/30/15 at 10:20:27
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 01/29/15 at 23:19:11:

In later years I noticed that some of my friends played in the same tournament, World Youth, and they put it several times in Vung Tau, South Vietnam. Man can imagine that this is quite far from many places, especially Western Europe, Western Russia, the Americas, and so forth, and long haul flights cost a big amount of money than short haul. So I am not sure how they afford. Also much less, when FIDE has a lesser role, like if someone in Europe or Latin America travelled to play Millionaire Chess Open in Las Vegas, the Canadian Open in Canada, or any of the big events in Khanty-Mansisyk.

It seems to me you're focusing on the exceptions rather than the general picture here. Most tournaments and most professional players (yes, even many originally from the Americas) are in Europe. If they want to play many tournaments with limited means, they won't travel across the globe if they have to pay the travel expenses themselves. Often they can find tournaments close enough in distance and time that no plane ride is required. 

But what other people have been pointing out here is that even without the high air fares you're worried about, it's very hard to make a living just from playing if you're not a world class player.

About the concrete exceptions you mention: I assume strong GMs travelling across continents may get travel expenses covered by the organizers. Both the World Youth Ch. and the tournaments in Khanty-Mansiysk have been official FIDE events, so many players will have gotten some support from their federations for those. Most players in the World Youth are still supported by their parents as well, of course. And Gibraltar and the Millionaire Open are exceptional in another respect: Their unusually high money prizes may entice more players to make a calculated gamble to go there.
  

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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #7 - 01/30/15 at 02:08:47
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I'll only chime in to say that my own limited experience with chess professionals corroborates what's already been said, unfortunately.
  
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #6 - 01/30/15 at 01:33:52
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My knowledge from friends is not dissimilar to that noted from Brabo. Romantic and exciting in one's teens and early 20s, perhaps, for a limited time. 
Then poverty and a lack of stability - 'the great unwashed' refers not to the French here, but to professional chess players below say, yes, 2650-2700. And, hmm, not so great. That is why the sartorial rules introduced a while back I thought to be a good idea. Obviously, they should be unnecessary. Obviously, people should know to wear clean clothes, to wash and not to give the impression they have slept under a bridge for the last few years. Oh, and to dress smartly for the prize giving. But, alas, enough of an issue, that 'guidance' is required. 

'Choose chess, choose being destitute' - I'd rather not.
Fascinating hobby though, and I would like to play more!

Perhaps Tony K can comment in this regard...?
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #5 - 01/29/15 at 23:19:11
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That sounds very bad. The cost of the plane must also be big cost on their wallets too. I used to play abroad much earlier, when I was younger. 10 years ago when I played in the highest level event in my life, the World Youths (basically for all U18), I payed cost of plane both ways, with connections, as well as hotel, although if I remember well, part of it was discounted(?). 

The food was provided for lunch, but I remember getting my own for breakfast and dinner. And also I preferred to get my own for lunch if possible because, let me put it mildly, I did not very much like it. So I spent two weeks in the same place with flights to connect both to come and go, and I remember that it cost me quite a lot, and I never fly business in my life. I always fly economy class. 

In later years I noticed that some of my friends played in the same tournament, World Youth, and they put it several times in Vung Tau, South Vietnam. Man can imagine that this is quite far from many places, especially Western Europe, Western Russia, the Americas, and so forth, and long haul flights cost a big amount of money than short haul. So I am not sure how they afford. Also much less, when FIDE has a lesser role, like if someone in Europe or Latin America travelled to play Millionaire Chess Open in Las Vegas, the Canadian Open in Canada, or any of the big events in Khanty-Mansisyk.
  
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #4 - 01/29/15 at 10:16:33
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Before my daughter was born in 2007, I've played many times abroad. I've seen and heard a lot of stories from professionals.

Professionals not belonging to the top 100 (so above 2650elo) and only playing chess (no giving courses or any other way of income) have a very difficult time. Some anecdotes.
1) At the end of an open tournament often the smell at the top-boards wasn't bearable. Some professionals didn't wash themselves for the whole tournament and I really wondered if maybe I better played a bit worse to avoid sitting nearby.
2) Some professional was between games, playing guitar outside just to get a bit extra money.
3) Another professional went to the toilet to drink free water of the tap during his game. There was no money for a simple coffee.
4) One told me that he bought at the beginning of each week 1 big bread + big piece of cheese and tried to survive.
5) Many of them are divorced or have difficulties to find a good partner.

It is no surprise that from age 30 many professionals stop when they want to settle and have a family.

Travelling, winning tournaments, a high rating, playing your favorite game, looks very romantic and attractive but reality is very different. I regularly got requests from professionals to give them a lift to the next tournament or even a place to stay. I sometimes helped. I even feel pity for my professional opponent when I beat him in the last round and pick up the 500 euro which he could use much better. On the other hand I don't feel so pity that I want to throw the game as in the end this professional life was his choice.
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #3 - 01/29/15 at 02:05:58
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From one region from Europe to another, like for example Norway or Sweden by plane to Switzerland would be cheaper. But I meant in general like if the tournament is a bit farther from home in general for anyone, like Norway to Brazil, or the UK to Russia, or those who live in countries wherein tournaments of high calibre or abundant of norm possibilites are very few, like those who live in the USA, Canada, Latin America, etc., and have to travel regularly or face the effect of having a lower than deserved ELO or less norms than they could make had they lived in Europe.

Of course I know some titled players who are from the USA, Canada, Argentina, Brazil, Peru, and countries that host very few norm tournaments, they made a very drastic decision and emigrated to Europe, especially Spain, Hungary or Germany, my guess might be that they have a visa or permanent residence status. Of course someone who is not in good financial state would be in more trouble than me when I play against the Wolga Gambit if they did this, but those that do not move abroad live at their home countries but fly long haul almost every month for chess. I suppose that they have the tournament venue cover housing and food, but then that leaves the plane costs. Then also if they have no job, i.e. play professionally, they have no income. Or if they only do chess stuff for a job, then their income is basically from lessons(?) or simuls I guess, how can that break even for them to survive economically?

Til exemple, some of the players whom I know are playing now in Gibraltar Masters. They live maybe 10000 km away, and they play professionally. Perhaps they might go to another country to play again soon thereafter. How does their winnings break even with all of the costs to do this?
  
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Re: Expenses of Playing Abroad
Reply #2 - 01/29/15 at 00:38:30
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@DenVerdsligeRejsende: And if you were to pay for housing and food yourself, your rates for plane ride and hotel look outlandish to me. I mean, In many cases you could win the tournament and still not break even!

With a little research you can usually find a longer route with a low-prize airline and a train or bus instead of that business-class direct flight. And you don't really need a suite with a hot tub and a large seating area (or even a TV set) to play good chess, do you?

No title here, but I'm not ashamed to admit I often go for some of the cheapest options when I play abroad, to be able to afford a few trips per year. 

It's also possible to choose destionations carefully: In a European context, tournaments in smaller cities and in the eastern parts of the continent are likely to be more affordable, but may still be quite strong. I've also found many affordable tournaments in Germany over the years.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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