Normal Topic Dragon endgame - does White have winning chances? (Read 4996 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Dragon endgame - does White have winning chances?
Reply #5 - 06/11/15 at 05:26:07
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MNb, have you looked at Shereshevsky's Mastering the Endgame vol 1? the Dragon endgame is the very first thing he deals with (pages 1-10 in my edition).


Regarding Tal-Portsich 1961 specifically, Khalifman argues that White had a substantial edge by move 25, and was winning by move 34 (Mikhail Tal Games 1949-1962, published in 1994)
  
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Re: Dragon endgame - does White have winning chances?
Reply #4 - 06/11/15 at 00:00:12
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ArKheiN wrote on 06/10/15 at 23:17:26:
Since then I have been even deeper and I can say that it is unfortunately worse than difficult, it's lost for Black


That does seem to answer the original question as to whether White  has winning chances. 

I'm not even sure it's specifically Dragon related. If you get an ending that's imbalanced with one player having a potential advantage of a pawn majority on the smaller side, there are always chances.
  
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Re: Dragon endgame - does White have winning chances?
Reply #3 - 06/10/15 at 23:17:26
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It might be interesting to analyse that rook ending indeed. I have studied the pawn endgame a lot and there is a thread on it in the Dragon forum with deep analysis. Since then I have been even deeper and I can say that it is unfortunately worse than difficult, it's lost for Black (some hopes from the other thread have been busted now but it's still unpublished yet, I may publish about that). Even with that knowledge, I used it to make an easy draw as Black against a MF OTB who even prepared a bit in this endgame before playing against me while I was not prepared to play this endgame that day. I used it because the way to win can not be improvised, it's very very deep.

To add something about the rook endgame, I have not analysed it very much yet but it looked quite unpleasant in practice. to add some thought for analysis, I can say that 22.Kb2 is very dangerous too and might transpose into the same rook ending, for example 22.Kb2!? Re3!? and now 23.Rc1, or 23.Rd2 or 23.b4 are natural moves.

After 22.Rc1 Re3!?, there is 23.Kb2 as a transposition, where Black should probably play 23..f5. White can play maybe 23.Rc2, or 23.b4 or Rc7 like Tal too.

Another idea, and a very dangerous novelty played in many blitzs by a strong internet guy against me (he couldn't beat me in the pawn endings): 22.e5!?N where I  have tryed 22..dxe5 dxe5 23.Rd7 a6, 22..Rc6, and 22..Rc7 but it's very difficult for Black. 

So, there is very much to discover in these rook endings and even if it's holdable, Black has to be very precise, often White can even sacrifice every kingside pawns to rush on the queenside and it's not obvious how Black should react.

Finally, I should add that the exchange sacrifice 17..Rxc3!? is not thaaat bad, and in fact one of the mainline is a double rook ending ressembling to this one, which is about +=.
  
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Re: Dragon endgame - does White have winning chances?
Reply #2 - 06/10/15 at 12:39:16
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brabo wrote on 06/10/15 at 07:35:35:
9... Bd7 hasn't been played at all in your examples so what do you mean?



I think he means that if 9. .. Nxd4 forces a draw, no-one will play 9. .. Bd7. 

I think that unlikely, given that at least some players are prepared to accept a bit of risk to play for a win with the Black pieces.
  
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Re: Dragon endgame - does White have winning chances?
Reply #1 - 06/10/15 at 07:35:35
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MNb wrote on 06/10/15 at 00:52:18:
  If White continues like Tal Black can try 29...f5 (in the actual game 31...f5) or 30...a4 (in the actual game 32...a4).
Hence my question. How realistic are White's winning chances? The answer is quite important for the theory of the Dragon. In the most extreme case (Black can easily hold the draw) 9...Bd7 can be thrown into the dustbin ......


This last piece I don't understand. Which actual game? 9... Bd7 hasn't been played at all in your examples so what do you mean?
  
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Dragon endgame - does White have winning chances?
06/10/15 at 00:52:18
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Tal-Portisch
EUchT-2 Oberhausen 1961
1-0



Something like this can be found in several books on the Dragon. Black can somewhat improve with



It's well known that the pawn endgame after 22...Rxc1+ is difficult. Dutch analyst Van der Tak argued that Black might hold, but unpleasant it is. However the active rook seems to provide active counterplay. If White continues like Tal Black can try 29...f5 (in the actual game Tal-Portisch (this is on request of Brabo) 31...f5) or 30...a4 (in the actual game 32...a4).
Hence my question. How realistic are White's winning chances? The answer is quite important for the theory of the Dragon. In the most extreme case (Black can easily hold the draw) 9...Bd7 can be thrown into the dustbin ......


« Last Edit: 06/10/15 at 09:52:44 by MNb »  

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