Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) which line?? (Read 13086 times)
George Jempty
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Re: which line??
Reply #14 - 11/06/15 at 19:42:05
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brabo wrote on 11/06/15 at 18:38:27:
George Jempty wrote on 11/06/15 at 10:47:54:
how about a different move order to get to the closed Ruy, via the Modern Steinitz?
3...a6  4.Ba4 d6 
And then there is 5. 0-0 to which Black can respond beginning with 5...b5 and a round-about way to the closed Ruy can be reached: 6. Bb3 Nf6 7.Re1 or 7.c3 (there's also 7.Ng5 with a sort of Two Knight's: see http://www.365chess.com/eco/C78_Ruy_Lopez_...b5_...d6 -- if you want to avoid this you can play 6...Be7 before 7...Nf6) 7...Be7 8.c3 or 8.Re1 8...0-0 9.h3 etc.

Actually in the above move order if you'd eventually like to play 9...Bb7 if White plays 7.c3 you might play 7...Bb7 when White must protect e4 (presumably with 8.Re1) because he will no longer have Bd5 in response to ...Nxe4.  Again something you might catch somebody out with at faster time controls.

I published a month ago some analysis about this line on my blog http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2015/10/the-sequence-part-2.html


Thanks for pointing that out.  What I like about the immediate 5...b5 is that it rules out c3 followed by Bc2 in response to a later ...b5.  On the other hand it might be vulnerable to an earlier a4 by White as appropriate -- I have to do some more research.
  
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brabo
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Re: which line??
Reply #13 - 11/06/15 at 18:38:27
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George Jempty wrote on 11/06/15 at 10:47:54:
how about a different move order to get to the closed Ruy, via the Modern Steinitz?
3...a6  4.Ba4 d6 
And then there is 5. 0-0 to which Black can respond beginning with 5...b5 and a round-about way to the closed Ruy can be reached: 6. Bb3 Nf6 7.Re1 or 7.c3 (there's also 7.Ng5 with a sort of Two Knight's: see http://www.365chess.com/eco/C78_Ruy_Lopez_...b5_...d6 -- if you want to avoid this you can play 6...Be7 before 7...Nf6) 7...Be7 8.c3 or 8.Re1 8...0-0 9.h3 etc.

Actually in the above move order if you'd eventually like to play 9...Bb7 if White plays 7.c3 you might play 7...Bb7 when White must protect e4 (presumably with 8.Re1) because he will no longer have Bd5 in response to ...Nxe4.  Again something you might catch somebody out with at faster time controls.

I published a month ago some analysis about this line on my blog http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2015/10/the-sequence-part-2.html
  
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George Jempty
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Re: which line??
Reply #12 - 11/06/15 at 17:32:45
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JEH wrote on 11/06/15 at 13:38:13:
[quote author=5659541C0 link=1446165386/10#10 date=1446807451]My plan is to get it down to 3, a solid/strategic line, a sharp line and a surprise line.


I think you get all of the above with my suggestions.  The Modern Steinitz 4...d6 is played 1/10th as much as 4...Nf6 according to 365chess.com so there is your surprise (and I think it is this surprise factor that still lets you catch people with the Noah's Ark trap).  After that White dictates whether you play sharply (the Siesta 5.c3 f5) or solidly (5.0-0 b5 and transposing into a closed Ruy).
  
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JEH
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Re: which line??
Reply #11 - 11/06/15 at 13:38:13
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JEH wrote on 11/06/15 at 10:57:31:
My plan is to get it down to 3, a solid/strategic line, a sharp line and a surprise line.


Probably overthinking this a bit too much, but I think the problem with answering this question, which occurs a lot on this forum, is that there seems to be no satisfactory answer by sticking faithfully to one defence. 

Even though it's a lot more work, I thought going with the three defence approach might solve this. 

e.g.

Solid: Berlin Wall
Sharp: Open
Surprise: Something else without 3. ...a6, e.g. Berlin Classical, Schliemann-Jaenisch or Bird, i.e. worth a punt but not for full time use.

or with 3. ...a6

Solid: Breyer
Sharp: Marshall
Surprise: Could be as list above, but options like Neo-Archangel or Gajewski Gambit

or

Just surprise opponent with different defence each time until they all go 5. d3  Cheesy
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: which line??
Reply #10 - 11/06/15 at 10:57:31
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This is the eternal question. I'm down to about 8 possible lines now  Roll Eyes

My plan is to get it down to 3, a solid/strategic line, a sharp line and a surprise line.

George Jempty wrote on 11/06/15 at 10:47:54:
I find this thread interesting for it's mention of a couple of lines in the closed Ruy (9.h3 Na5 10 Bc2 c5 11 d4 exd4! 12 cxd4 Re8


The Graf doesn't seem that bad as far I my investigations can see. Is it just out of fashion? Maybe it's just a suspicion of Benoni type formations?

[Edit: Ooops realised this isn't the Graf  Embarrassed]
« Last Edit: 11/06/15 at 11:58:41 by JEH »  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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George Jempty
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Re: which line??
Reply #9 - 11/06/15 at 10:47:54
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I find this thread interesting for it's mention of a couple of lines in the closed Ruy (9.h3 Na5 10 Bc2 c5 11 d4 exd4! 12 cxd4 Re8 and 9. h3 Bb7 10.d4 Re8 11.Nbd2 exd4 12.cxd4 Nd7!?) that bear investigating.  But since it seems the OP isn't interested in the Marshall, how about a different move order to get to the closed Ruy, via the Modern Steinitz?

3...a6  4.Ba4 d6 and up to 5% of my opponents at fast time controls (blitz or rapid) fall for the Noah's Ark trap 5. d4!? b5  6.Bb3 Nxd4  7.Nxd4 exd4 8. Qxd4?? c5 9. Qd5 Be6 10. Qc6 Bd7 11. Qd5 c4.  Free points are great and there are even two dozen instances of this in 365chess.com!

On 5.c3 there is the Siesta 5...f5 which I'm having success with in engines-on correspondence play; see the next thread on this Spanish board: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1446586192  

And then there is 5. 0-0 to which Black can respond beginning with 5...b5 and a round-about way to the closed Ruy can be reached: 6. Bb3 Nf6 7.Re1 or 7.c3 (there's also 7.Ng5 with a sort of Two Knight's: see http://www.365chess.com/eco/C78_Ruy_Lopez_...b5_...d6 -- if you want to avoid this you can play 6...Be7 before 7...Nf6) 7...Be7 8.c3 or 8.Re1 8...0-0 9.h3 etc.

Actually in the above move order if you'd eventually like to play 9...Bb7 if White plays 7.c3 you might play 7...Bb7 when White must protect e4 (presumably with 8.Re1) because he will no longer have Bd5 in response to ...Nxe4.  Again something you might catch somebody out with at faster time controls.
« Last Edit: 11/06/15 at 17:04:36 by George Jempty »  
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Re: which line??
Reply #8 - 11/03/15 at 03:58:07
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The line with 9...Bb7 10.d4 Re8 11.Nbd2 exd4 12.cxd4 Nd7!? followed by the active Bf6 is quite interesting if you like unexplored lines. Svidler game with white against Kjartansson is annotated in Informator 123. Black can get pressure on white's e pawn if white tries Nh2-g4-f6 to snap of Black's bishop. Surely this can't be an improved version of the old Karpov Nd7 line? Svidler must have been impressed because he successfully used this line against Giri who probably rarely loses with white.

Karpov's old 9... Nd7 line might still be okay but you hardly see it these days. Is it that bad?



  
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Re: which line??
Reply #7 - 10/30/15 at 23:38:42
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Zatara wrote on 10/30/15 at 00:36:26:
Hi all,
I have taken up 1...e5 as black.  2 knights vs Guico and Nf6 vs scotch and early d5 vs King's gambit.  However,
not sold on what to play vs Spanish.  Here is why:
1. Marshall has drawish lines and in endgames.  I need and want to be able to win all games!  (I think most people under 2200 think the same, unless you are 1700 vs GM then draw is good Smiley    
2. The open according to the GM Repertoire seems to end in a drawish endgame as well. 
sooo, I am looking for something that doesn't lead into a drawish/drawn endgame and if possible is open or semi open with a good amount of pieces and possibly a sharp position (is that too much to ask??)  SOOO: 
1.  Been thinking of the Aronian 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nge7 and have dangerous weapons book and Drev's book.
2. Shcliemann but in Nc3 variation the Nf6 seems to lead to drawn ending (Hopefully wrong on this)
3. Archangel or some form of it??
4.  the line in the back of Dagerous weapons that Mark Hebden has palyed supposedly : 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5, 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8. c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10 Bc2 c5 11 d4 exd4! 12 cxd4 Re8
Thank you for your time and patience,
Marc


I think this is a good variation wich scores well for black. And also it ends up in interesting positons if white play along. Ok, you must sometimes face the exchange variation, but its the only downside and there must be hope here too...?

GG
  
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Re: which line??
Reply #6 - 10/30/15 at 22:05:52
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Svidler's video series on chess24 is certainly worth a look. He is a great presenter anyhow so anything by him is just really good for your chess, but this line may be what some of you may be looking for. 
Archangels.
Black is black btw. White, to a small extent, can control direction a little. Don't expect to overturn chess in your repertoire choosing.
  
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Re: which line??
Reply #5 - 10/30/15 at 16:00:49
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I am in a similar predicament myself Undecided

I would suggest the Neo-Archangelsk, i.e. delay Bb7 for a bit longer and keep option for Bg4.

I am eagerly awaiting Bologan's book though  Cool



  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: which line??
Reply #4 - 10/30/15 at 14:52:09
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About  Schliemann and draw, there is also d3  line where black can play objectely inferiour replies or play enter a line where white can choose between two options where one of the options leeds to a position where whites controls the only open file but it is bascially an easy draw unless black slips. White can also play an other option and aim for more.

About exchange variation I would say that all three results are possible, it is a game of chess.
  
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Re: which line??
Reply #3 - 10/30/15 at 12:07:04
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Zatara wrote on 10/30/15 at 00:36:26:

1.  Been thinking of the Aronian 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nge7 and have dangerous weapons book and Dreev's book.



I know the subsequent tactics appear to require the inclusion of 3. .. a6, but one of the points of playing 3. .. Nge7 was to take Exchange variation players out of their comfort zone. 

Whilst GMs can make drawing level endgames look easy, it isn't always so simple. Positions that Black wants to avoid in practice are where there are only two results, namely White wins or draw. 
  
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Re: which line??
Reply #2 - 10/30/15 at 03:01:58
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I think it's good that you consider different options, but you shouldn't be too worried that some lines ends in "drawish endgames". If you're too worried about it, you might end up playing sub-optimal variations just because you want to avoid a draw. 

Here's a few suggestions, but there are tons of variations to explore: 

3...g6!? usually leads to interesting strategical play and is the main weapon of GM Chanda Sandipan.

The old Chigorin Main Line with 9...Na5 leads to strategically rich positions where Black probably is fine.

Svidler has experimented with 9...Bb7 10.d4 Re8 11.Nbd2 exd4 12.cxd4 Nd7!?, a nice idea which I believe he got from IM Kjartansson from Iceland. Check his recent World Cup game against Giri. 
  
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Re: which line??
Reply #1 - 10/30/15 at 01:11:23
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What is your rating? I don't think you have to worry about any opening being "too drawish" until you're at least a master. Until your rating is very high, it will be pretty rare that you have a game where

1) your opponent is so low-rated that you'll be unhappy with a draw
2) despite being low-rated, he knows how to reach that drawn endgame
3) despite being low-rated, he can hold that drawn endgame.
  
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which line??
10/30/15 at 00:36:26
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Hi all,
I have taken up 1...e5 as black.  2 knights vs Guico and Nf6 vs scotch and early d5 vs King's gambit.  However,
not sold on what to play vs Spanish.  Here is why:
1. Marshall has drawish lines and in endgames.  I need and want to be able to win all games!  (I think most people under 2200 think the same, unless you are 1700 vs GM then draw is good Smiley    
2. The open according to the GM Repertoire seems to end in a drawish endgame as well. 
sooo, I am looking for something that doesn't lead into a drawish/drawn endgame and if possible is open or semi open with a good amount of pieces and possibly a sharp position (is that too much to ask??)  SOOO: 
1.  Been thinking of the Aronian 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Nge7 and have dangerous weapons book and Drev's book.
2. Shcliemann but in Nc3 variation the Nf6 seems to lead to drawn ending (Hopefully wrong on this)
3. Archangel or some form of it??
4.  the line in the back of Dagerous weapons that Mark Hebden has palyed supposedly : 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5, 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8. c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10 Bc2 c5 11 d4 exd4! 12 cxd4 Re8
Thank you for your time and patience,
Marc
  
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