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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Fianchetto Solution (Read 43957 times)
Keano
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #45 - 12/19/16 at 02:57:00
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All very interesting but sounds like just another mediocre book that nobody really needs.
  
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #44 - 12/18/16 at 18:02:35
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I wish to thank CBS for a very well-written (except for the lack of paragraphs) post. I agree with everything he said and I really enjoy the book. I think that it can be used with The Modern Tiger and Davies' very good Starting Out The Modern to construct a viable and hopefully not too theory-intense repertoire. 
As I proceed, I might try it as a basis for White, perhaps using Davies' 1. g3 DVD from Chessbase (note to Keano: it won't play on the telly). Possibly I could also start 1. a3 and then play as if I were Black (unless I meet 1...a6!!). 
As an aside, I also wish to thank JEH, especially, for years of interesting and frequently amusing posts on these sorts of lines. I almost always learn something from them.
  
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #43 - 12/18/16 at 10:24:27
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 12/18/16 at 02:56:30:
This is not the kind of book that would appeal to someone searching for a complete repertoire in the style of a Quality Chess openings manual. It does not have the analytical rigor of Tiger's book, but there are a number of interesting ideas throughout the book. The style of the book fits well with the fluid mindset that I tend to see among successful Modern players. I have a friend in the 2300-2400 range who has a similar repertoire, but he is willing to play slightly offbeat King's Indian lines as Black and mainline systems with White like the Catalan, but often he will aim for English transpositions to avoid sharp lines like the Benoni. His knowledge of mainline theory is not always so exact, but he has a good feel for the associated structures in fianchetto openings. This book has an interesting philosophy on opening preparation and might be a good starting point for someone new to learning fianchetto openings. Before reading the book, I had been studying mainline theory in both the Pirc and King's Indian, and while reading I learned some new ideas that are sometimes only possible through Modern move orders. (Having the option of the Modern move order is one of advantages of playing the King's Indian alongside the Pirc.) The 4...Nc6 approach against the Austrian Attack is an interesting offbeat line that seems to fall between both Tiger's recommendations in terms of risk. I'll have to think more about 5.Bb5!?, as mentioned earlier in this thread, since it is not mentioned in the book. If you check 4.f4 Nc6 in Greet's repertoire book recommending the Austrian Attack, Greet only has a short note about 4...Nc6 with the suggestion that it will likely transpose to the 6.Be3 Pirc mainlines, but I don't see mention of any ideas involving the fluid center approach with ...e6 combined with 4...Nc6. Overall, 4.f4 Nc6 is an approach I may consider against lower rated players to avoid mainline theory, as some of the forcing 6.Bd3 Nc6 Austrian Pirc mainlines can peter out quickly to drawish positions. Another interesting idea in the book is that Black can play both ...a6 and ...c6 (to prepare ...b5) with a King's Indian move order against a standard English setup with Nf3, c4, g3 when White refrains from d4. This meshes with either a Panno or Kavalek approach against the Fianchetto King's Indian (both are mentioned in the book). If the authors had attempted to write a complete repertoire book based on all the lines they suggested, the book would have become incredibly bloated. Consequently, a lot of the coverage is sketchy and incomplete in many of the mainlines, and often more analysis is spent on rarer pet continuations favored by Shoker. While there are many lines you can find in more detail in other books like Tiger's, I like the variety of ideas and there are several interesting offbeat twists that could be a good starting point for independent investigations. I admit that a lot of work is left to the reader, but I think that is the nature of book in the way it is intended to be read. The "modern" approach to opening preparation as detailed in the introduction is variable and open-ended. In most cases, I wouldn't use this book as a primary reference for opening theory, but I think it is useful for supplementary ideas and inspiration. I found several ideas exploiting the flexibility of the Modern move order (1...g6) that could be useful surprise weapons to sharpen the struggle and avoid the main highways of opening theory. In nearly every section, I found a new idea that I had not seen in earlier books on the Pirc/Modern complex.



  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #42 - 12/18/16 at 02:56:30
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This is not the kind of book that would appeal to someone searching for a complete repertoire in the style of a Quality Chess openings manual. It does not have the analytical rigor of Tiger's book, but there are a number of interesting ideas throughout the book. The style of the book fits well with the fluid mindset that I tend to see among successful Modern players. I have a friend in the 2300-2400 range who has a similar repertoire, but he is willing to play slightly offbeat King's Indian lines as Black and mainline systems with White like the Catalan, but often he will aim for English transpositions to avoid sharp lines like the Benoni. His knowledge of mainline theory is not always so exact, but he has a good feel for the associated structures in fianchetto openings. This book has an interesting philosophy on opening preparation and might be a good starting point for someone new to learning fianchetto openings. Before reading the book, I had been studying mainline theory in both the Pirc and King's Indian, and while reading I learned some new ideas that are sometimes only possible through Modern move orders. (Having the option of the Modern move order is one of advantages of playing the King's Indian alongside the Pirc.) The 4...Nc6 approach against the Austrian Attack is an interesting offbeat line that seems to fall between both Tiger's recommendations in terms of risk. I'll have to think more about 5.Bb5!?, as mentioned earlier in this thread, since it is not mentioned in the book. If you check 4.f4 Nc6 in Greet's repertoire book recommending the Austrian Attack, Greet only has a short note about 4...Nc6 with the suggestion that it will likely transpose to the 6.Be3 Pirc mainlines, but I don't see mention of any ideas involving the fluid center approach with ...e6 combined with 4...Nc6. Overall, 4.f4 Nc6 is an approach I may consider against lower rated players to avoid mainline theory, as some of the forcing 6.Bd3 Nc6 Austrian Pirc mainlines can peter out quickly to drawish positions. Another interesting idea in the book is that Black can play both ...a6 and ...c6 (to prepare ...b5) with a King's Indian move order against a standard English setup with Nf3, c4, g3 when White refrains from d4. This meshes with either a Panno or Kavalek approach against the Fianchetto King's Indian (both are mentioned in the book). If the authors had attempted to write a complete repertoire book based on all the lines they suggested, the book would have become incredibly bloated. Consequently, a lot of the coverage is sketchy and incomplete in many of the mainlines, and often more analysis is spent on rarer pet continuations favored by Shoker. While there are many lines you can find in more detail in other books like Tiger's, I like the variety of ideas and there are several interesting offbeat twists that could be a good starting point for independent investigations. I admit that a lot of work is left to the reader, but I think that is the nature of book in the way it is intended to be read. The "modern" approach to opening preparation as detailed in the introduction is variable and open-ended. In most cases, I wouldn't use this book as a primary reference for opening theory, but I think it is useful for supplementary ideas and inspiration. I found several ideas exploiting the flexibility of the Modern move order (1...g6) that could be useful surprise weapons to sharpen the struggle and avoid the main highways of opening theory. In nearly every section, I found a new idea that I had not seen in earlier books on the Pirc/Modern complex.
  
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #41 - 10/01/16 at 21:11:17
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Well, after reading these comments I have to say I was disheartened. Without wanting to challenge these observations I would just like to offer to potential buyers that my own experience was quite positive.

By way of context, I am a perfect candidate for the book as described in the advertising. I want a way to "constrain the problem" and allow some focus given that I play infrequently. I am a "club player" (by which I assume the authors really mean someone who has limited ability or who doesn't have aspirations to mastery). And I want to be able to play positions from familiarity rather than explicit concrete knowledge. I have searched for something like this and never found it until now.

I like the interplay between the authors concerning solidity versus dynamics. I'm sure most people can identify with one or other of the authors and can follow the corresponding advice. There were many choices offered, which ordinarily drives me nuts when the presentation is concrete, but I thought it was useful given that the presentation is supposed to be a kind of starting point for positionally driven play that suits you, and for independent research. I like the kind of explanatory material that accompanies the repertoire - it's very rare to get such explicit fundamental material from the same source as a repertoire. I liked the bibliography, which I thought was more than adequate for this kind of work and suggests further reading that is very focussed (the repertoire follows the listed sources quite closely) and doesn't send you off down an expensive and fruitless rat hole. I liked that the authors present early theory with pedagogical annotations and then refer you to unannotated example games for further study (I could contrast that with another very popular author who drives me insane by insisting on annotating every game to its conclusion, no matter how irrelevant the conclusions are to the matter at hand). I have the Forward Chess version, so they're particularly accessible in that medium.

I personally liked the repertoire choices, which I think are rich enough to keep my interest for a very long time but constrained enough that I might actually learn something in some depth. I have tried to perform this kind of construction by myself out of necessity, and I have failed repeatedly. I don't think it's as easy as the authors make it look. And whatever loose ends are there are never going to be any worse for me than my current experiences.

I commend the authors, both for the book's execution and for recognizing (and admitting) the need for it in the first place. Thank you.

And I recommend it to any chess player who would like to have an opening library consisting of this and the few books in the bibliography, and no more. You will be a rarity in the chess world and no worse off for it if my experience is anything to go by.
  
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #40 - 09/29/16 at 22:36:37
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JonathanB wrote on 09/29/16 at 19:47:49:
[quote author=05223F313B37560 link=1473943311/37#37 date=1475151656]

Perhaps more significantly after 1 Nf3 Nc6 2 d4 they write,


I briefly switched from playing 1. .. Nf6 against 1. Nf3 to playing 1. .. d5. The logic was that if they played 2. c4, you met it with 2. .. d4 and then played a system with .. f6 and .. e5. If they played 2. g3 you would follow up with 2. .. Nc6 with a reversed 150 in prospect. If they played 3. d4, you would play .. Bg4 and if 4. h3, play Bf5. You can then follow up with .. Qd7 and .. 0-0-0 making king side castling difficult for White. 

That's all sophisticated stuff, but you have to be prepared to play the position arising after 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 to which they can transpose by abandoning their initial refusal to occupy the centre with pawns. 

The "can't be bothered to learn very much about the English or Reti" approach is to just meet 1. Nf3 or 1. c4 with 1. .. Nf6 2. .. g6 3. .. Bg7 4. .. O-O and 5. .. d6. You have to know Kings Indian stuff and be confident that the KID isn't complete rubbish.
  
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #39 - 09/29/16 at 19:47:49
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Stigma wrote on 09/29/16 at 12:20:56:

A last-ditch attempt at logic ...


Sure there are reasons to play 1 Nf3 - I prefer it to 1 g3 on aesthetic grounds alone - but however many reasons we come up with they’ll still all be our reasons not the authors’

I think we should perhaps prepare ourselves for the fact that TFS is simply not a very logical book in many ways big and small. I mean, look at the chapter headings from earlier. There’s not an awful lot of logic in many of them. Do they really need to point out that against the Dutch, for example, they recommend an anti-Dutch system?

Perhaps more significantly after 1 Nf3 Nc6 2 d4 they write,

"Our main line with 2 g3 is perfectly feasible, but as White you do not want to give up the centre to the opponent (we allow Black to set up a centre with ... e7-e5 and ... d7-d5). Then the move d2-d4 will allow White to count on a safe - if small - advantage."

Let’s leave aside the fact that the English used does not express what the authors mean and whether than matters*, where’s the logic in saying "White or Black, you should play a system based on the king’s fianchetto ... but if you don’t fancy letting the other guy build a pawn centre, here’s what you do". Rather than, say, "if you don’t want the other guy to build a pawn centre why on earth are you reading this book? Get a grip on yourself."


However, if we allow for the sake of argument there might be some point to his diversion, where’s the logic in not giving an alternate line when Black builds an even bigger pawn centre with ... c5 as well as ... d5 and ... e5?












* actually let’s not: it obviously does
  

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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #38 - 09/29/16 at 12:58:16
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A point of 1. Nf3, even if you were intending always g3 is to keep the opponent in the dark about your intentions as they still don't know if you will go e.g. d4/c4 without one

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #37 - 09/29/16 at 12:20:56
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JonathanB wrote on 09/29/16 at 07:54:17:
Stigma wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:13:04:
Haven't seen the book myself.


Indeed.


Obviously if you don’t play 1 g3 it’s because you want to avoid early ... e5 lines. Except as pointed out above - and in the contents in my earlier post - there is a section on the Reversed Pirc - albeit with an alternative line given too.

My apologies for assuming some logic behind the repertoire...  Roll Eyes

A last-ditch attempt at logic: There could still be the small point that Black has to play ...Nc6 to get to the reversed Pirc, taking setups without ...Nc6 (...c6 and ...Bd6 for instance) off the table?
  

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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #36 - 09/29/16 at 09:05:34
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JonathanB wrote on 09/29/16 at 07:54:17:
When they give a second system it’s because they think the first offering is a bit dodgy.


There are sort of two Black repertoires in the book that I've also come across in my Modern journey. 

1. Gurg vs e4 and Nc6 Modern vs d4 which I got originally from a nice old book called "Opening Tactics for Club Players" by Sergiu Samarian, which despite it's title contained a number of repertoire selections, including the KIA giving a fianchetto solution! Then I picked this up again from Norwood's book on the Modern.

The Gurg, with its Caro-Kann like c6 (you can even start with 1. ...c6) is pretty solid.

The Nc6 modern with lines like 1. d4 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. e4 Nc6 5. d5 Ne5 6. f4 Nd7 where you've given white two moves for free over 1. d4 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. e4 Nd7  are what I'd describe as solid, but then you've trying to provoke White into coming at you full tilt and hoping they will fall on their face  Wink

2. Tiger's Modern (a6) vs e4 and the Averbakh (early e5 allowing ending) vs d4, which was expanded in detail in the Modern Tiger, and verbagly diluted in a Move by Move book. 

There is also a solid option offered against the Austrian with 6. ..Nc6, as already covered in the Modern Tiger.

Hence solid and flexible  Cool

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #35 - 09/29/16 at 07:54:17
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Stigma wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:13:04:
Haven't seen the book myself.


Indeed.


Obviously if you don’t play 1 g3 it’s because you want to avoid early ... e5 lines. Except as pointed out above - and in the contents in my earlier post - there is a section on the Reversed Pirc - albeit with an alternative line given too.

When they give a second system it’s because they think the first offering is a bit dodgy. Quite often in the book they’ll say something like (I paraphrase): "hmm, this is a bit shit, isn’t it? Not to worry. We’ll give you something better a little later"

They don’t do that for the Reversed Pirc though, which, if you read the section you’d be forgiven for thinking is all going swimmingly for White from the authors’ point of view. Except we know they not that keen on it.


I’m not that bothered by the choice of 1 Nf3 per se, it’s just that it seems to me that we should remember what our maths teachers taught us and show our working out when we make decisions like that. I can’t understand what the authors are thinking and therefore I can’t learn from it. All I can do with the book is blindly follow their suggestion. Which makes the it somewhat less than usual as an educational resource.

It’s a small point in a way - although then again the first move of you White system is quite a big choice, it seems to me. I don’t care which choice they make 1 Nf3 or 1 g3 - you can make an argument either way - but I’d like to know why they went the way they did.

Also, I tend to feel that if I find a lack of attention to detail, a lack of polish, in one part of a book I’m likely to find it in other places too.
  

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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #34 - 09/29/16 at 02:31:40
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kylemeister wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:18:15:
But the TOC as given earlier includes Reversed Pirc.


They also include 1. Nf3 Nc6 2. d4 d5 3. Bf4, a shocking use of a non-Fianchetto  Shocked

Not seen anything in there apart fron a Reveresed Pirc for 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6 as now d4 would be a different Chigorin (as recommended in Davie's Dymanic Reti), but at least it's one with a fianchetto  Cool

Although the Nc6 stuff is fine in theory, it requires a repertoire combination from Black which is pretty rare at my level, and the blurb does say this book is for club players who's likely opponents won't likely have specialised anti-KIA lines, and if they do, will not have the middle game experience.

With 1. Nf3, you've also got 1. ...f5 2. d3, however this book has a solution with a fianchetto in it for some reason.

If you are fianchetto or bust, then you can go 1. g3, but my fianchetto solution doesn't involve fianchettos all the time!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #33 - 09/28/16 at 22:18:15
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But the TOC as given earlier includes Reversed Pirc.
  
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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #32 - 09/28/16 at 22:13:04
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JonathanB wrote on 09/28/16 at 21:02:46:

So why not 1 g3? More to the point, why don’t the authors explain why not?

Agreed, they should explain it. But if g3 is played soon in every line, the reason for 1.Nf3 is pretty obvious, isn't it? 

There must be some line(s) after 1.g3 e5 they want to avoid, and 1.Nf3 makes Black work harder to get ...e5 in, at the cost of losing some non-Nf3 options. 

Perhaps they're even avoiding the reversed Pirc by meeting an early ...Nc6 with d4 and a Chigorin transposition? Haven't seen the book myself.
  

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Re: The Fianchetto Solution
Reply #31 - 09/28/16 at 21:02:46
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JEH wrote on 09/27/16 at 10:53:31:
JonathanB wrote on 09/27/16 at 05:53:06:


I’m afraid to say that the Bibliography for TFS is abysmal. 



They've mentioned The Modern Tiger and Neil McDonald's KIA Move By Move, both great books ....


My problem with the bibliography is what’s not there rather than what is. Aside from the Keene books and Norwood’s Modern as mentioned earlier, how about Bent Larsen’s Best Games - which features 7 or 8 games which begin with 1 g3?

Talking of which, I find it a bit odd that TFS has it’s White repertoire beginning 1 Nf3 with 2 g3 3 Bg2 and 4 0-0 to follow. Seems to me that if your whole system is based on a king’s fianchetto it’s more flexible to go ahead and play it and then choose where to put the king’s knight later.

So why not 1 g3? More to the point, why don’t the authors explain why not?
  

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