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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB? (Read 33201 times)
Stigma
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #31 - 08/04/17 at 22:35:37
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The misunderstanding here is you are looking at special exceptions and treating them as if they are the general rule to make the argument work.

The general rule is that analyzing on another board apart from the game board is not allowed.

Blind players using those small special boards to feel the pieces is an exception that allows them to play at all.

Thinking while looking at a demo board of the game is an exception because demo boards are a nice feature tournaments can offer to spectators, and it would usually be impractical to stop the players from ever looking at them.

The Monroi and the PlyCounter are exceptions because ... I have no idea! Commercial interest and good lobbying work perhaps? I have never seen one in use anywhere in Europe. If you ask me, they shouldn't have been allowed in the first place. Their use is certainly not an argument for going even further in the wrong direction by allowing players who don't really need it more outside assistance.

Arguably these devices could enable children and illiterate players to participate without/before learning to write the moves, but once again that's an exception.

I also don't get how simply training with and getting used to 3D boards can be such an insurmountable hurdle. I grew up with almost only 3D boards, but I adjusted to Chessbase, online servers, etc. just fine when they became widespread. And I've seen many make the transition from online players only to OTB players with great results from the start.
  

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exigentsky
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #30 - 08/04/17 at 20:04:00
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/04/17 at 19:07:40:
If using a second board is truly equivalent to using a Monroi, I must ask: why not just use the Monroi?  Since you're pushing for an alternative to the Monroi, you must realize that your alternative is not actually equivalent.


You're right that it's not equivalent. It does a lot more than a regular 2D chess set (like being able to visually navigate back and forth in the history of the game) and you take it with you when going to the bathroom.

Are you willing to part with $360+ for a Monroi? It's incredibly overpriced for what's essentially a locked down 90s Palm Pilot. I was considering the PlyCounter 2 at $200 but I still feel a bit ripped off spending that much for something that I think should cost $70-$100. I'll buy one or the other if there are no other options. 

This is what I'm considering assuming the USCF has consistent rules:
 
It's basically the same size as the screens on those devices.

Anyway, it's not like I truly NEED a 2D representation. I got to 1800+ without ever using one in a tournament. It's just uncomfortable and I probably play 10% worse than I can (just a guess). In the past, I've tried 3D chess setups online (ChessBase, chess.com's real3D etc.) to get used to it for tournaments but my playing strength in sub 10 minute time controls drops over 100 points.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #29 - 08/04/17 at 19:07:40
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If using a second board is truly equivalent to using a Monroi, I must ask: why not just use the Monroi?  Since you're pushing for an alternative to the Monroi, you must realize that your alternative is not actually equivalent.
  
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exigentsky
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #28 - 08/04/17 at 18:55:10
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RoleyPoley wrote on 08/04/17 at 16:30:13:
exigentsky wrote on 08/04/17 at 13:06:52:
I am skeptical of any rules in a competition which allow something for one group but not another. It would make the most sense, in the interest of fairness that ANYTHING a blind player can do (within the rules), so can any other player.


As far as i am aware from playing games against blind players in the UK, the braille board is to enable them to play the game, while their opponent if fully sighted will make moves for them on the official board.

exigentsky wrote on 08/04/17 at 13:04:26:
Although, FIDE's rules are nonsensical if you can't use a pocket chess set of equal or smaller dimensions than a Monroi (which they certified). It would be one of those cases where if that's how it's interpreted, the rules need to be changed for consistency. Either ban the Monroi or allow this too


I'm unfamiliar with the monroi and plycounter but they appear to be for the purpose of recording moves.

So, i still dont see how you bringing in another set to a game is equivalent to the above, nor understand why you cant get accustomed to a proper board and set.



They have a secondary 2D board representation, just like a travel set with circular discs and a 2D symbol printed on them. You don't just type your move; you make the move on their board. 

Compare:


Pocket chess set


PlyCounter


Monroi
  
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RoleyPoley
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #27 - 08/04/17 at 16:30:13
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exigentsky wrote on 08/04/17 at 13:06:52:
I am skeptical of any rules in a competition which allow something for one group but not another. It would make the most sense, in the interest of fairness that ANYTHING a blind player can do (within the rules), so can any other player.


As far as i am aware from playing games against blind players in the UK, the braille board is to enable them to play the game, while their opponent if fully sighted will make moves for them on the official board.

exigentsky wrote on 08/04/17 at 13:04:26:
Although, FIDE's rules are nonsensical if you can't use a pocket chess set of equal or smaller dimensions than a Monroi (which they certified). It would be one of those cases where if that's how it's interpreted, the rules need to be changed for consistency. Either ban the Monroi or allow this too


I'm unfamiliar with the monroi and plycounter but they appear to be for the purpose of recording moves.

So, i still dont see how you bringing in another set to a game is equivalent to the above, nor understand why you cant get accustomed to a proper board and set.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #26 - 08/04/17 at 15:54:17
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Oh my God, email the USCF. We've already heard your side and can't wait to hear what the officials have to say.
  
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exigentsky
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #25 - 08/04/17 at 13:06:52
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tipau wrote on 08/04/17 at 09:54:45:
I'm not sure that special allowances made for blind players would help support unusual requests made by fully sighted players.

Imagine someone arguing that they want to announce their moves out loud. It's not really clear why, just that they really really want to, and using games involving blind players to support the argument. Sounds pretty silly right?


It shows that the USCF is open to special accommodations (including external boards).

It's true that the rules were somehow not designed to generalize despite it being a competitive game. I am skeptical of any rules in a competition which allow something for one group but not another. It would make the most sense, in the interest of fairness that ANYTHING a blind player can do (within the rules), so can any other player. I don't think the hypothetical situation of everyone announcing moves is likely simply because players don't like to be conspicuous and don't want to make the effort to do something like that with no benefit. Although, hypothetically, you could also end-up in a tournament comprised of 90% blind players and encounter the same situation as in the slippery slope result.
  
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #24 - 08/04/17 at 13:04:26
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RdC wrote on 08/04/17 at 10:34:06:
exigentsky wrote on 08/04/17 at 09:07:41:


I never had any doubt whatsoever that allowing what I proposed was the only consistent outcome with USCF rules based on the precedents set with the Monroi and PlyCounter.


FIDE (International) laws of chess

http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=207&view=article
11.3.1
     
Quote:

During play the players are forbidden to use any notes, sources of information or advice, or analyse any game on another chessboard.



We're not talking about analyzing the game (which usually implies moving pieces in a way different than the position being played). Also, I care most about how the USCF deals with it.

Although, FIDE's rules are nonsensical if you can't use a pocket chess set of equal or smaller dimensions than a Monroi (which they certified). It would be one of those cases where if that's how it's interpreted, the rules need to be changed for consistency. Either ban the Monroi or allow this too.
  
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #23 - 08/04/17 at 12:58:40
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/04/17 at 10:56:05:
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People agreeing with me or not doesn't make the truth change.
The truth is you're a troll.


Since you can't compete with ideas, you resort to ad hominems.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #22 - 08/04/17 at 10:56:05
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Quote:
People agreeing with me or not doesn't make the truth change.
The truth is you're a troll.
  
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RdC
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #21 - 08/04/17 at 10:34:06
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exigentsky wrote on 08/04/17 at 09:07:41:


I never had any doubt whatsoever that allowing what I proposed was the only consistent outcome with USCF rules based on the precedents set with the Monroi and PlyCounter.


FIDE (International) laws of chess

http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html?id=207&view=article
11.3.1
     
Quote:

During play the players are forbidden to use any notes, sources of information or advice, or analyse any game on another chessboard.

  
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #20 - 08/04/17 at 09:54:45
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I'm not sure that special allowances made for blind players would help support unusual requests made by fully sighted players.

Imagine someone arguing that they want to announce their moves out loud. It's not really clear why, just that they really really want to, and using games involving blind players to support the argument. Sounds pretty silly right?
  

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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #19 - 08/04/17 at 09:07:41
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/03/17 at 02:56:52:
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I think it would be silly if I'm not allowed to use a pocket set of a similar size to a Monroi to display the position on the board after I make a move.

I would be surprised if you could find a single adult chessplayer who would agree with your opinion.

 
People agreeing with me or not doesn't make the truth change. 

I never had any doubt whatsoever that allowing what I proposed was the only consistent outcome with USCF rules based on the precedents set with the Monroi and PlyCounter.

My only question was whether this was officially approved or not. It likely would be allowed but was never considered explicitly because this is an edge case and many people would probably be embarrassed to do this at a tournament even if it helped them.

I will try to contact the USCF about this soon. I think if there's a special accommodation for the blind that would be another point in my favor. I think blind people use a special braille board.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #18 - 08/03/17 at 16:10:51
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Well exigentsy, why not email FIDE and get back to us with their response?
  
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dfan
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Re: Are you allowed to have a 2D representation OTB?
Reply #17 - 08/03/17 at 11:16:47
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It seems like you had already made up your mind before you asked the question, which makes all the following debate sort of pointless. I look forward to hearing what happens if you try it.
  
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