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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4 (Read 26955 times)
TN
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #28 - 08/25/17 at 10:43:52
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If you want to play this ...Nbd7 QGD stuff, throw in ...h6/Bh4 and you get a lot of Kramnik games.  Smiley
  
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Bondefanger
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #27 - 08/25/17 at 05:56:19
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kylemeister wrote on 08/25/17 at 05:38:12:
Bondefanger wrote on 08/25/17 at 04:59:23:

And a somewhat low-theory way of mending that hole could be to after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 O-O 6.Nf3 Nbd7 go 7.Rc1 a6 and 7.Qc2 c5


Now you're getting into some really old stuff.  Has it been advocated in a recent repertoire book?


It was mentioned as a secondary option in a Daniel King Powerplay DVD. There was not much on it. A videoanalysis of a single game, and a few pointers, as far as I remember. 

Thus we can check the "low-theory" box. Wink
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #26 - 08/25/17 at 05:38:12
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Bondefanger wrote on 08/25/17 at 04:59:23:

And a somewhat low-theory way of mending that hole could be to after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 O-O 6.Nf3 Nbd7 go 7.Rc1 a6 and 7.Qc2 c5


Now you're getting into some really old stuff.  Has it been advocated in a recent repertoire book??
Sorry, couldn't help myself ...
  
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Bondefanger
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #25 - 08/25/17 at 04:59:23
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/24/17 at 17:59:46:
3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c5 is of course the pure Semi-Tarrasch, so that only leaves 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 when Black needs something else.  


And a somewhat low-theory way of mending that hole could be to after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 O-O 6.Nf3 Nbd7 go 7.Rc1 a6 and 7.Qc2 c5
  
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Monocle
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #24 - 08/24/17 at 21:28:06
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I looked at 1...g6 as a universal defence years ago, back when I was more inclined to play sharp stuff (it looked to me sort of like a bargain-basement Dragon), and it was actually the Averbakh that put me off it at the time.  I thought Black's only good option was to play Nf6 and go into a regular King's Indian.

But yeah, I wouldn't exactly call it solid.  I think the modern is one of those openings that looks great when it works, but the rest of the time you get blown off the board in 20 moves without ever really knowing what went wrong. 
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #23 - 08/24/17 at 20:55:30
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I have a feeling that he meant 1.d4 d6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 without ...Nf6, which I believe has been called the Averbakh variation of the Modern.  Or something similar; again, not at all "solid" in my mind.  Frankly, it's hard for me to imagine a less solid opening choice!
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #22 - 08/24/17 at 20:01:49
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CarriedbyGg wrote on 08/24/17 at 08:32:01:
If you do not want to continue playing the dutch, then consider the KID with Nbd7 lines, or the Averbakh. 

They are underrated as solid and "low on theory"-lines. Especially the classical KID often leads to czech benoni pawn structures, but with more counterplay.


Which Averbakh line are you talking about? The only one I'm aware of is the line White chooses to play that includes Be2 and Bg5.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #21 - 08/24/17 at 17:59:46
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If one is happy with 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5, then it makes sense to at least look into playing the Semi-Tarrasch proper, or at least to make use of it for particular move orders.  For instance, 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bf4?! c5! is at least fine for Black already because 5.dxc5 Bxc5 puts him a tempo ahead of the main line.  3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c5 is of course the pure Semi-Tarrasch, so that only leaves 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 when Black needs something else.   

Of course Black will need something against the Catalan as well, but at least his move order gives him a full range of options to choose from.

I'd note (not for the first time) that often people recommend the King's Indian Defense and whatnot in these "low-theory, solid" recommendation threads.  Frankly, I can't think of many defenses for Black to 1.d4 that are less "solid" than the King's Indian!  Some lines are more solid than others of course, but...
  
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #20 - 08/24/17 at 08:32:01
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If you do not want to continue playing the dutch, then consider the KID with Nbd7 lines, or the Averbakh. 

They are underrated as solid and "low on theory"-lines. Especially the classical KID often leads to czech benoni pawn structures, but with more counterplay.
  
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #19 - 08/24/17 at 04:39:15
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RoleyPoley wrote on 08/23/17 at 09:08:15:
How about keeping the dutch, and keep playing through the 1...e6 route?

Not everyone you face will transpose to a french, so you will normally get that opening. You can keep the french in your repertoire as a back up to 1..e5 if you still plan on using that as your main defence against 1.e4.


This seems like really good advice not that there aren't good ways to play for a win with the Exchange and the Advance French against lower rated opponents if you are willing to take some risks (e.g., early c5 in the Exchange).  Another idea is to play the Triangle complex to avoid Bf4 and Exchange QGD and problematic Exchange Slavs.  You can keep the Triangle down to a small amount of critical lines that you will probably know better than your opponent anyway.  Personally, I find the d-pawn Specials more annoying as Black against lower rated players than the French Exchange so I really like the French/Stonewall idea a lot.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #18 - 08/23/17 at 23:27:16
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Monocle wrote on 08/23/17 at 20:52:54:
ErictheRed wrote on 08/23/17 at 18:10:20:
The 4...Nbd7 move order in the QGD may be a good option.  Also regarding the Exchange, Black might strongly consider playing 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd Nxd5.

Doesn't that lead to the Semi-Tarrasch?


Maybe.  After 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 c5, White can play 7.a3 or 7.Rb1, instead of 7.Nf3. 
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #17 - 08/23/17 at 22:55:18
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By the way, regarding the (avoidance of the) Nge2 exchange QGD, I have wondered whether people have a particular argument with Max Illingworth's treatment of it in Chess Publishing.
  
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #16 - 08/23/17 at 22:39:31
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I used to play the czech benoni, then one day I tried the Benko and found that I really liked it. Now I vary between czech benoni and benko. At the moment I'm pairing it with the QID (if 4.g3 then Bb7 5.Bg2 Bb4 6.Bd2 c5, I don't fear whites alternatives to 4.g3).

BTW I used to not worry at all about the QGD exchange & Nge2 stuff. I used to find it gave me a psychological thing-that-felt-like-an-advantage. But since Carlsens novelty the psychological balance has shifted to something more horizontal.
  
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #15 - 08/23/17 at 21:11:42
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Re the Semi-Tarrasch and related stuff, there was this.
http://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/marin_semi_tarrasch_a_univeral_weapon_agai...
  
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Re: Solid, low-theory openings as black against 1.d4
Reply #14 - 08/23/17 at 20:52:54
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/23/17 at 18:10:20:
The 4...Nbd7 move order in the QGD may be a good option.  Also regarding the Exchange, Black might strongly consider playing 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd Nxd5.


Doesn't that lead to the Semi-Tarrasch?  That might actually be a solution to the exchange and Bf4.  I don't know of any books on it, although I have a vague recollection of a Sam Collins DVD about central majorities.

Maybe ...b6 vs Bf4 is worth a look.  I think I'm leaning towards trying to fix my problems with the QGD one way or another.   

Re: the Schlecter Slav, what is the best move order for reaching it?  I heard Smyslov used to play it, but he doesn't seem to have used the 1.d4 d5 move order.
  
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