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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Repertoire for a Go player (Read 5184 times)
IsaVulpes
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #10 - 01/01/18 at 00:59:17
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nocteus wrote on 12/31/17 at 15:53:59:
I am not sure Morozevich's repertoire would suit a go player.

Moro plays Go now https://chess24.com/en/read/news/morozevich-on-go-computers-and-cheating, so who knows, maybe it would actually be a perfect fit Wink
  
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dfan
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #9 - 12/31/17 at 17:41:27
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Two things Go players would naturally understand instinctively are the value of tempi and the initiative.

Go is all about playing as efficiently as possible; if you can demonstrate in retrospect that your opponent has wasted one of his previous moves because that stone no longer accomplishes anything useful in the current board state, that's a huge advantage (it can easily be worth 10+ points).

Go players are always constantly fighting for the initiative (called sente in Japanese; basically it means that your opponent is responding to you rather than vice versa) and are often willing to take a local loss if it means gaining sente to be the first to play elsewhere.

Local sacrifices for a global gain are also common.

So I think that a dynamic open repertoire focused on quick development could actually fit rather well!
  
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nocteus
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #8 - 12/31/17 at 15:53:59
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dfan wrote on 12/18/17 at 21:54:27:
. There's no real analog to the slow maneuvering and repositioning that can show up in chess. For this reason I think blocked pawn structures might actually be a bit weirder to a Go player than more open games.


That one I did not see coming! I guess we would need to define what type of open games would be acceptable. I am not sure Morozevich's repertoire would suit a go player.
  
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dfan
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #7 - 12/18/17 at 21:54:27
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LeeRoth wrote on 12/18/17 at 20:44:37:

I don't know anything about Go, but the pictures of the board with all the White and Black stones interlocked remind me of pawn chains and blocked positions.  Hence the French, the Czech Benoni, and the Huebner Nimzo.

It's funny; you can't move stones once placed, so you'd think Go would be a pretty static game. But on the other hand the rule means that the game is always moving forward. There's no real analog to the slow maneuvering and repositioning that can show up in chess. For this reason I think blocked pawn structures might actually be a bit weirder to a Go player than more open games.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #6 - 12/18/17 at 20:44:37
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nocteus wrote on 12/18/17 at 10:58:04:
My first toughts were repetitive openings (is that what you call 'formulaic' Leeroth?) : London/Scandinavian, Caro-Kann, Slav.


When I used "formulaic," I was referring to your "single-minded pattern approach."  Maybe its not what you meant, but I took it to mean an opening with a clear and direct plan.  For example, the Stonewall, where White is basically going to play for Bd3, Nf3-e5, f4, g4-g5, Qh5 and Qxh7 mate.  

I don't know anything about Go, but the pictures of the board with all the White and Black stones interlocked remind me of pawn chains and blocked positions.  Hence the French, the Czech Benoni, and the Huebner Nimzo.    

   
  
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dfan
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #5 - 12/18/17 at 13:33:50
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/18/17 at 11:45:01:

My actual advice would be to just ignore that they're Go players, because it's very unlikely that they will learn chess the same way they learned Go, their set of skills won't really transfer either way, and it's unclear yet what they will enjoy the most.

Speaking as someone who plays both chess and Go seriously, I agree completely. There are more similarities (or at least analogies) between the two games than most people think, and sometimes the aspects that are the most different are the most charming. If he turns up his nose at chess's "need for memorization" (spoiler: Go requires just as much), you might want to keep him away from super-sharp openings, but if he's just starting out, none of that matters a huge deal anyway.
  
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #4 - 12/18/17 at 11:45:01
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So just complex, positional middlegames? 
Ruy Lopez with both colours (with White early d3 instead of engaging in theory discussions, Black Breyer), Be2/Bb5 Najdorf + similar, Nimzo/QID against 1.d4?
Page out of Karpov's (and Carlsen's) playbook

My actual advice would be to just ignore that they're Go players, because it's very unlikely that they will learn chess the same way they learned Go, their set of skills won't really transfer either way, and it's unclear yet what they will enjoy the most.

It's like saying.. an ex-basketball player picking up football shouldn't go in defense, because from basketball the player learned to never touch an opponent, so they can't defend; and vice versa they're good at dodging opponents, so they'd make a good striker. 
But will they still be good at dodging opponents with a ball on their foot? And maybe they'd love tackling their opponents to the ground, precisely because it is something entirely different to what they're used to (if they want to play "Go in Chess", why not just continue playing Go.. surely Go will be closer to Go than any "Go in Chess" you can find)?
  
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nocteus
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #3 - 12/18/17 at 10:58:04
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Indeed, ErictheRed, I very much agree with you! I advised him to read Soltis and Stean's Simple Chess.
I was not clear enough in my post. I took his request more as a thought experiment. 
If he reaches an expert level, given the different analytical process at stakes between Go and Chess, which openings would suit a Go-player the best?

My first toughts were repetitive openings (is that what you call 'formulaic' Leeroth?) : London/Scandinavian, Caro-Kann, Slav.
Then, I realized Go's complexity is about strategical decision, long-term plans. It is not about the repetition of the same shapes or structures or plans but the ability to subtlely side-step them. I guess it would be better to play the most strategically complex positions where the plans (or moves sequences) are not determined. You need openings that give you the freedom to steer the game to completely different shapes, structures each games.
That's why, after a while, I rejected the French (highly complex but the plans and manoeuvres to me seem to vary little), while the Nimzo (as black) makes a lot sense. But I am surely wrong.

  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #2 - 12/17/17 at 15:31:18
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Just have him play chess and not worry about openings very much. Have him read books on strategy, tactics, pawn structure, endings, game collections of great players, etc, etc. There is a ton of enjoyable material out there that your relative can work on that will help him to become a better player. 

Books like Pawn Structure Chess will teach him a ton about openings without having to memorize much, if any, "theory."  Eventually if he falls in love with the game, he'll become interested in a particular opening and want to study it more deeply. If he's starting out, he shouldn't have to worry about theory, there is so much more to learn. 

I think that it's a common misconception that a person has to learn a ton of "theory" to start playing chess well. You can get pretty far by just studying master games,  strategy, tactics, endgames, etc. When someone wants to learn heavier theory, they may.  A player really only needs to know enough to get a playable game against their opponents, and when someone is starting out it's much more useful to frame their mistakes in the opening as tactical or strategic errors, or as violating general principles, instead of talking about theory, which is off-putting and unhelpful. 

So I wouldn't recommend any openings to your relative, give them an inspiring game collection that would suit their level, and let them enjoy and investigate the game for themselves. I loved Winning Chess Brilliancies by Yasser Seirawan as one of my first books, and through it I became interested in a couple of opening systems.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: Repertoire for a Go player
Reply #1 - 12/17/17 at 14:08:36
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So closed, encircling openings or formulaic ones?  As White, maybe the Colle or Stonewall.  Perhaps the Reti.  As Black, the French vs 1.e4.  The Nimzo or Czech Benoni vs. 1.d4.  For the Nimzo, a black-squared blockading strategy.  Show him some of the classic Nimzo zugzwang games.  As far as books, perhaps Soltis’ Pawn Structure Chess or My System would appeal to him.
  
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nocteus
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Repertoire for a Go player
12/17/17 at 12:58:03
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A relative of mine, 1st dan in Go, decided to learn chess and confronted me to an interesting challenge.
Obviously, he is not thrilled about learning opening theory and asked me for a 'pattern-friendly repertoire'. As a go-player, he is more interested in collecting and memorizing patterns of all sort related to an opening or a structure than anything else. 
I gave him Sterren's 'Fundamental Chess Openings'. He is pleased with it but will not memorize theory beyond it, that is to say up to fundamental tabyias (10ish moves-deep).

Which openings do you think lend themselves the better to a single-minded 'pattern' approach and would maximise his strengths?
  
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