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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort) (Read 14653 times)
Stigma
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #31 - 02/24/18 at 00:06:54
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I once claimed a draw citing this rule in a theoretical rook ending where I was a pawn down and had only seconds (around 5) left on my clock. This was in a team match were I had to draw for us to draw the match.

To my surprise, the experienced arbiter asked me to explain at the board how I would draw the position, and then declared the game drawn, commenting that "you are both strong players and this should be drawn at your level".

I actually think this was too kind to me, and if I were the arbiter I would have ordered play to continue and very likely end in a loss on time! Even though the position was a theoretical draw, it was still possible to mess it up with a careless move. I still feel a bit guilty thinking about this; I felt I had to try a claim for the team's sake, but I didn't expect to actually be awarded the draw.
« Last Edit: 02/24/18 at 02:01:54 by Stigma »  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #30 - 02/23/18 at 23:15:59
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@Leon_Trotsky - It's nice to know you are so very safe from cheating.

The best article I ever read on chess, when I was still a youngster, was by a TD (arbiter for the Europeans), on the subject of how to protect yourself from cheats. It was full of devious tricks like fake resignation, fake draw acceptance, switch-the-clock, etc. All of which the author had observed directly in his tournaments. He quoted the advice from the referee to the boxers: "No hitting below the belt. No hitting after the bell. Protect yourself at all times." My reaction to that article was to purchase the rulebook and read it cover-to-cover.

Heat-of-the-moment cheating, I can somewhat understand. For example, "did he let go of the piece?", and the like. It's not good, but it is very human, especially in time pressure. I did this once myself, for which I am ashamed. Fortunately for my opponent, with the help of a witness I came to my senses and so the game correctly ended in stalemate. I hope I never do it again, but then again I never thought I would do it even once. So in these situations I just resort to the rulebook and don't get too emotional.

Premeditated cheating I cannot abide. The worst one that happened to me was in the first round of a rapid tournament. My opponent had a trick clock ("Quartz clock", battery operated analog) where when it was my turn, my clock ran, when it was his turn, both clocks ran! As my time ran lower and lower, I moved faster and faster, until finally I stopped looking at the chessboard at all, except to move, and looked only at the clock. And that's when I figured it out. The TD gave me the time back, and I won, but I really wanted to break this guy's teeth.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #29 - 02/23/18 at 22:57:54
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I do know that things are typically run much more professionally in other countries, but it's not so easy to travel internationally just to play chess!
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #28 - 02/23/18 at 19:49:47
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/23/18 at 17:49:06:
My opponent had the Black pieces and some kind of digital clock that I wasn't familiar with at the time (this was perhaps 8 years ago), though I don't remember the make.  Time control was G/60 or G/75, with 5-second delay.  Because I wasn't familiar with the clock, before the game I asked my opponent how to operate it, how to stop it in case I needed to, and made sure that the delay was working.


Just wanted to let you know that in basically most countries in the chess world, especially Latin America and Europe, this is impossible because the tournament organisers provide not only the boards, but also the clocks. The clocks are almost invariably the FIDE clocks withthe big lever buttons on each side.



Arbiters set the clocks for the players before each round, with the button for White on "up". The rounds begin with shake of hands, Black player presses the "start" button in middle of the clock, and White player makes move and hits clock. That is all we need to know when handling clocks in tournaments.

Reconsider tournament chess, maybe just in a different country? Smiley
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #27 - 02/23/18 at 17:49:06
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ReneDescartes wrote on 02/14/18 at 12:05:21:
The player who restarted the clock was, as I was later told, himself an arbiter. He knew it was wrong. This was poor sportsmanship, not ignorance.


I have had and seen so many instances of poor sportsmanship and cheating that it really soured me on playing competitively for long lengths of time.  One of the worst that happened to me directly went like this:

In a small local evening tournament, I was paired against a TD who ran most local events, though he was playing in this one and someone else was acting as arbiter.  This was when I was rated about 2150 or so and really trying to make a climb to 2200, whereas my opponent was only rated about 1750 or so.

My opponent had the Black pieces and some kind of digital clock that I wasn't familiar with at the time (this was perhaps 8 years ago), though I don't remember the make.  Time control was G/60 or G/75, with 5-second delay.  Because I wasn't familiar with the clock, before the game I asked my opponent how to operate it, how to stop it in case I needed to, and made sure that the delay was working.  It all was.  The one slightly odd thing that I noticed was that there was a move counter set as though there was a time control at move 40, but he showed me that the "second" time control was set for 0 minutes, so that there wasn't any additional time coming; he said that he didn't know how to change the mode, and I thought nothing of it.

My opponent played well for a while, but finally made some kind of error after 30 or 40 moves or so that I capitalized on.  Soon he was down a piece, some pawns, then a queen for a rook...eventually, after many moves, my opponent only had king and pawns whereas I had two pieces and pawns, with one of them queening shortly.  I expected my opponent to resign, but he didn't.  That's fine; I assumed that he was hoping for stalemate as all of his pawns were locked and he only had king moves.  I was also down under two minutes while he had about ten, but with the delay I knew that I was fine.  

At this point my opponent started behaving really badly: he pounded the table, huffed loudly, picked his king up and slammed it into the board while hitting the clock very hard instantly on every move, etc.  He was also staring intently at the clock.  I glanced at the clock a few times and saw that I had more than a minute and, with the delays, should be completely fine on time.  

So instead of "stooping to his level," I tried to play very "politely," taking a few seconds to move, adjusting his king (which was never in the center of a square), that sort of thing.  I deliberately took 3-5 seconds or so per move, just to make sure that I wasn't going to queen into stalemate, or otherwise inadvertently stalemate my opponent.  My opponent still stared intently at the clock.  

To my astonishment, with mate only a couple of moves away, my opponent triumphantly screamed "FLAG!!".  And he was correct; my clock had expired.  I had no idea how it happened, I protested to him, asked to see the delay, etc.  The TD had been watching our board from some distance off and said that my time had expired.  He also said that the clock didn't seem to have any delay!  I protested, saying that I had been shown the delay working before the start of the game, which my opponent denied.  I was also told that even if the delay had somehow stopped working, that it was my responsibility to notice that before my time expired.  

So I lost the game, which left a huge sour taste in my mouth, set me back quite a ways on the road to Master, and turned me off from playing for a while.  My opponent was one of the most prominent local TDs, and he knew full well that he had demonstrated the delay to me before the game began.  

What I believe happened was that the second time control was NOT set to have delay.  Whether that was intentional on his part I do not know; at best, he noticed that the clock was not set correctly and did nothing about it so that he could win on time after having misled me before the game.  At worst, he deliberately removed the delay after the second time control in an attempt to flag his opponents who likely would not notice.  Given his personality as I came to know him better, I suspect the latter.  

Anyhow I'm venting a bit, but I want to warn people that there are all sorts of ways to cheat that we may not have thought of and take us by surprise.  The instance still bothers me this many years later, and it was one of a few that really soured me on competitive rated play, unfortunately.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #26 - 02/22/18 at 17:33:09
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RdC wrote on 02/22/18 at 15:50:38:
In the FIDE Rules it's an arbiter action to substitute a clock, as one may not be available. That's why it has to be triggered by a player request which is regarded as a draw offer.
I don't agree. There could be a clock available or not, regardless of whether the onus is on the player or the arbiter. The two are not logically linked. If there is no suitable clock available, the arbiter would have to take a different action, is all.
  
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #25 - 02/22/18 at 15:50:38
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/21/18 at 03:45:19:
Placing a delay clock on a game where one of the players in sudden death is below two minutes (or whatever arbitrary threshold) should be standard operating procedure.


Outside of the USA, it is normal for tournaments to supply the equipment. If there's a clock to hand that has delay or more likely increment capability, it's more logical to use it from the start of the game. 

In the FIDE Rules it's an arbiter action to substitute a clock, as one may not be available. That's why it has to be triggered by a player request which is regarded as a draw offer. 
  
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gwnn
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #24 - 02/21/18 at 15:53:30
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Thank you for that ironically extraordinary post, chessplayer. I'm not sure I like the idea that I be judged by a different standard than kids just because I can grow a beard. They regularly beat me after all.

On the other hand, I see your point, too. In bridge (a game I'm better at but far from world class - maybe a 2200) they have the idea of a jury of your own peers to decide whether my action was logical or not*. I was always a bit put off by the prospect of a bunch of semi-amateurs (albethey equally successful to me) deciding that some crackpot bid/play is logical. I'd much rather it were a single standard for all in this case, I think.

*The idea goes like this. If I notice something strange about my partner, usually a break in normal tempo, I need to consciously ignore it, in fact I have to choose whichever "logical alternative" is least suggested by the information. Now, whatever is a "logical alternative" can vary wildly between players of different levels, so the tournament director needs a poll of my "peers".
  
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #23 - 02/21/18 at 03:45:19
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After further reflection on gwnn's question about "normal means", and more particularly whether what is normal depends on rating...

First I want to say that the current rules are crummy. Placing a delay clock on a game where one of the players in sudden death is below two minutes (or whatever arbitrary threshold) should be standard operating procedure. It should not depend on a claim by one of the players; it should not constitute a draw offer; it should not depend on the position on the chessboard; it should not require any judgment by the arbiter. The arbiter should have the clock in hand as the two minutes approaches, when the player going below two minutes presses his clock, the arbiter steps in and makes the substitution. Only if the arbiter is not looking / not present would either player need to take any action. Actually, the rule should say that the player below two minutes is not required to summon the arbiter, but can simply wait at the table with the clock paused until the arbiter arrives. If that takes a minute or an hour or a week, so be it.

Okay, enough fantasy. Dealing with the rules as written, "normal means" is only ambiguous as it relates to "realistic chance of winning". Here I don't think there should be a single standard, nor do I think there should be a sliding standard. I think there should be a junior standard and an adult standard.

Junior chess is something else. I'm thinking here not of the talented juniors who are probably playing against adults anyway, but of the vast ocean of unrated and low-rated beginners whose only problem with the clock is remembering to press it. For these youngsters, the arbiter should have total discretion. The only difficulty I can see here would be at a massive championship tournament where both types of "juniors" are competing, as well as some in-betweeners. But total arbiter discretion could also amount to strictly enforcing adult rules on some games and not others, so it could probably still work. With some protests and appeals, of course, because this is chess.

Adult chess should be played to a single standard. I am not a GM, but I want to play by the same rules as GMs. If I make a claim against a GM, whichever way that decision goes, I want the decision to be the exact same in the next game when a class player makes the same claim against me. But I believe it's not only me who wants this, the GM wants it and the class player also wants it. As a practical matter, I think "realistic chance of winning" can be a complex call in many positions. Imagine if the arbiter were now asked to make that call based on the abilities of the actual two players involved. That's complexity squared, and I can't say that I have ever met an arbiter who would be up to the task, including me back when I had that role. (Although there are plenty of arbiters who think they would be up to the task.)

That's my take on it.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #22 - 02/14/18 at 19:46:21
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/14/18 at 14:28:54:
Karpfenkopf wrote on 02/14/18 at 06:59:58:
ReneDescartes wrote about blitz chess.
Actually he wrote "a game where, in blitz ...". Someone who is casual about language might have been talking about a blitz game. ReneDescartes is not casual about language. Ergo, this was not a blitz game but a longer game. He confirmed this in a later post.

Similarly I knew that the "normal" in his expression "normal arbiter" was significant, but he didn't like my joke. No doubt the incident still rankles, understandably so.


Thanks; the incident was very unpleasant, yes. I thought the point of your joke was to remind me that arbiters have discretion--if you meant that arbiters were abnormal, that was funny (doubly so under the circumstances). Also, you're giving me too much credit: though I am not casual with language (language and I don't know each other that well), I was unaware of the blitz exception to the normal-means rule.
« Last Edit: 02/15/18 at 02:09:56 by ReneDescartes »  
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gwnn
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #21 - 02/14/18 at 15:17:09
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/14/18 at 14:28:54:
Karpfenkopf wrote on 02/14/18 at 06:59:58:
ReneDescartes wrote about blitz chess.
 

@gwnn - I'm still thinking about "normal means". Sleeping on it helped a little, I have some new ideas this morning. brabo in Reply #7 gave a good example with his son. I am still trying to integrate that with my thoughts on the issue as a whole.

Do you have an Amazon link to the book? I'd like to pre-order it.
  
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #20 - 02/14/18 at 14:28:54
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Karpfenkopf wrote on 02/14/18 at 06:59:58:
ReneDescartes wrote about blitz chess.
Actually he wrote "a game where, in blitz ...". Someone who is casual about language might have been talking about a blitz game. ReneDescartes is not casual about language. Ergo, this was not a blitz game but a longer game. He confirmed this in a later post.

Similarly I knew that the "normal" in his expression "normal arbiter" was significant, but he didn't like my joke. No doubt the incident still rankles, understandably so.

@gwnn - I'm still thinking about "normal means". Sleeping on it helped a little, I have some new ideas this morning. brabo in Reply #7 gave a good example with his son. I am still trying to integrate that with my thoughts on the issue as a whole.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #19 - 02/14/18 at 12:05:21
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The player who restarted the clock was, as I was later told, himself an arbiter. He knew it was wrong. This was poor sportsmanship, not ignorance.
  
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #18 - 02/14/18 at 11:59:36
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It's not surprising that someone would restart the clock if they don't know that you're entitled to stop it; and many supposedly serious players are lamentably ignorant of the rules.
  
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #17 - 02/14/18 at 11:29:03
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Being ground on time with Ks&Rs and having my clock restarted when I sought the arbiter (I had to get up for that)--these have happened to me in a long time control. Finding my clock run down was disgusting. The arbiter was not normal in that he was inexperienced, whatever else he was. The situation was a mess. I don't want to give more details because I don't want to identify anyone involved.
  
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