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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Kornev's QGD (Read 12867 times)
MarinFan
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #15 - 05/09/18 at 21:41:18
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Black can certainly use the semi-tarrasch more universally if wants too. However, Kornev doesn't want to cover 1.d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nf3 Nf6 4Nc3 c5 5e3, and after 5pxp Nxp 6e3 chooses 6...pxp 7pxp NxN 8pxN Qc7 playing against the hanging pawns, rather than covering the traditional IQP positions that could be transposed too from other openings like the Caro-kann and Nimzo-Indian. Generally goes for ultra solid, Kramnik influenced lines, but the cost is losing some universality. I think a chessbase dvd by Marin shows how can use a semi-tarrasch approach against a wider selection of openings.

The line against the catalan, was also covered by Koutranous in "Beating the Flank Openings" from '96. The main differences in the books are analysis from the older one, which was a minor classic, has since become played lines in elite/correspondence games, and Koutranous explored some riskier "fighting" choices, whilst Kornev chooses dry, ultra corrent ones, at least according to software. Haven't noticed much original analysis in new book. This justifies the a6 when only a win good enough final section of new book, which haven't really looked at yet.

The Nitrlis book is certainly a nicer read, the introduction chapters are virtually middle game improvement in the detail of explanation.



  
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gewgaw
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #14 - 05/09/18 at 15:23:36
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This book is more recent than Ntirlis, but is it better? Which would you buy?
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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gillbod
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #13 - 05/06/18 at 21:33:31
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ErictheRed wrote on 05/06/18 at 20:47:38:
I wonder why he chose to give those move orders?  Was it laziness, sloppiness, or something deliberate and well thought out that I don't see? 


Well, it seems you understand the question now!

ErictheRed wrote on 05/06/18 at 20:47:38:
...he said "Mainline with 7...Nbd7" and then later wondered why you couldn't use the Semi-Tarrasch as a weapon against "the mainline."  Well, the problem is that White forces a "Mainline with 7...Nbd7" and avoids the Semi-Tarrasch by simply altering the move order of "the mainline." 


I suppose this is a way of suggesting that I talk in specific variations to avoid ambiguity. I apologise, will be more specific in the future.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #12 - 05/06/18 at 20:47:38
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I don't see how the repertoire could really be streamlined.  I don't have the book in question, but it seems that some move order editing would have cleared up some confusion.  Yes, if you're happy with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5 then you should be just as happy with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5, unless Kornev has some idea in the first line that forces White out of a Semi-Slav. 

Chapters 5 through 10, and let's say specifically 7 through 10, probably should not have given the move order 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5, but rather the more traditional 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.Nf3.  In this way, it would be clear that you need to know another QGD defense, and can't simply stick to the Semi-Tarrasch against everything. 

I wonder why he chose to give those move orders?  Was it laziness, sloppiness, or something deliberate and well thought out that I don't see? 

So to Gillbod's question, yes, go ahead and play the Semi-Tarrasch against White bringing his knights out on moves three and four.  But it doesn't really streamline or simplify your repertoire as far as I'm concerned, since White can simply develop his bishop on move four instead, bypassing the Semi-Slav and forcing you into another line anyway. 

I think that the confusion came about because in Gillbod's original post, he said "Mainline with 7...Nbd7" and then later wondered why you couldn't use the Semi-Tarrasch as a weapon against "the mainline."  Well, the problem is that White forces a "Mainline with 7...Nbd7" and avoids the Semi-Tarrasch by simply altering the move order of "the mainline." 
  
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gillbod
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #11 - 05/06/18 at 18:51:23
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ReneDescartes wrote on 04/09/18 at 10:06:34:
I don't understand. I too thought the OP was wondering about a general Semi-Tarrasch response to the QGD. So the answer for him is that he would sometimes be able to get it, but only against an early Nf3.

Or was that the message, just with some Semi-Trash talk?


Nope, my question was correctly interpreted by 'an ordinary chessplayer'. It seems to me that Kornev's repertoire could potentially be much more streamlined by incorporation of the semi-Tarrasch. White can more or less force one with Kornev's choice against the exchange variation, so I'm curious why Black doesn't also use it against the mainline.

In summary:

It seems to me that if you are happy with:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5

then you should also be happy with:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #10 - 04/09/18 at 13:42:40
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Maybe you are right. It would certainly explain the answers stating that 4.Bg5 is a problem for the Semi-Tarrasch. But I read the OP very differently, to wit:

Given Kornev's repertoire...

Contents
(006) Preface
Part 1.  Queen's Gambit Declined 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6
(008) ch01 3.cxd5 exd5 4.Nc3  c6
(020) ch02 3.Nc3 Nf6 Rare; 4.Bg5 Be7
(030) ch03 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 Nxd5
(052) ch04 3.Nf3 Nf6 (A) 4.Bg5 Be7 (B) 4.e3 Be7
(062) ch05 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 (A) 5.Qc2 c5 (B) 5.e3 O-O
(080) ch06 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.cxd5 exd5 (A) 6.Bf4 c6 (B) 6.Bg5 c6
(098) ch07 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bf4 O-O (A) 6.Rc1 c5 (B) 6.a3 b6 (C) 6.e3 Nbd7 (C1) 7.Qc2 c5 (C2) 7.Be2 dxc4 (C3) 7.a3 c5
(119) ch08 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bf4 O-O 6.e3 Nbd7 7.c5 c6
(130) ch09 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6 (A) 6.Bf4 O-O (B) 6.Bxf6 Bxf6
(158) ch10 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 O-O 7.e3 Nbd7
Part 2.  Catalan Opening 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 Be7 5.Bg2 O-O
(170) ch11 A) 6.Nbd2 b6; B) 6.Qc2 c5; 6.Nc3 dxc4
(186) ch12 6.O-O dxc4  Rare; 7.Ne5 Nc6
(203) ch13 6.O-O dxc4 7.Qc2 a6 8.a4 Bd7
(219) ch14 6.O-O dxc4 7.Qc2 a6 8.Qxc4 b5
Part 3.  When Winning is a Must 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6
(237) ch15 3.Nc3 a6 w/o 4.Nf3
(257) ch16 3.Nc3 a6 4.Nf3 Nf6
(277) ch17 3.g3 a6; 3.Nf3 a6
(300) Index of Variations

... instead of 4...Be7 as given in chapters 5-10, wouldn't 4...c5 be more consistent with chapter 3? That is how I read his question anyway.

The OP did use the word "mainline", but I think it's just a consequence of the way Kornev structured the book, with the "mainline" in chapter 10 beginning 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3, whereas most books would have it as 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 O-O 6.Nf3 h6 7.Bh4 Nbd7. Kornev has 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 in chapter 2. I don't think the OP was intending to avoid 4.Bg5 Be7.

Again, maybe you are right, and I simply read too much into the OP's question.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #9 - 04/09/18 at 10:06:34
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/05/18 at 05:05:40:
LeeRoth wrote on 03/04/18 at 18:20:24:
The problem with using the Semi-Tarrasch as a defense to the main line is that it does not work against the traditional move order: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/04/18 at 18:33:53:
The problem is that neither 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 nor 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 leads to the Semi-Tarrasch.

The problem is that his question was about 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3.


I don't understand. I too thought the OP was wondering about a general Semi-Tarrasch response to the QGD. So the answer for him is that he would sometimes be able to get it, but only against an early Nf3.

Or was that the message, just with some Semi-Trash talk?
  
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #8 - 04/08/18 at 00:51:29
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Main line stuff with
1 d4 d5
2 c4 e6
3 Nf3 Nf6
4 g3 Be7
5 Bg2 0-0
6 0-0 dxc4
7 Qc2 a6
  
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #7 - 03/19/18 at 11:15:11
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Hello,
Has anyone purchased the book?
What is the recommended line in catalan ?

  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #6 - 03/05/18 at 05:05:40
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LeeRoth wrote on 03/04/18 at 18:20:24:
The problem with using the Semi-Tarrasch as a defense to the main line is that it does not work against the traditional move order: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5.

ErictheRed wrote on 03/04/18 at 18:33:53:
The problem is that neither 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 nor 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 leads to the Semi-Tarrasch.

The problem is that his question was about 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3.

@Gillbod - Yes as you point out 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 dove-tails with 4.cxd5 Nxd5. It may be that Kornev feels 4...Be7 5.Bf4 O-O 6.e3 Nbd7 equalizes more cleanly. This sort of question arises in every repertoire: whether to transpose, or instead to "punish" the opponent's move order. Actually it is nice that Kornev presented this line, because now you have a choice whether to follow his repertoire to a T, or vary with 4...c5. It's also nice since if a problem arises with 4.cxd5 Nxd5, now you only have to patch one system rather than two.
  
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #5 - 03/04/18 at 20:14:42
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I am confused by why he chose 3. Cc3 Cf6 4. cxd5 Cxd5, because I quite like the line that Ntrlis offered with the ...h6/Ch5 idea in his book.
  
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #4 - 03/04/18 at 19:26:28
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/04/18 at 18:18:51:
gillbod wrote on 03/04/18 at 10:32:09:
Another new Kornev book, it seems, providing a full repertoire to d4, c4.

Quick overview of lines (stolen from the Forward Chess preview):

Exchange variation with 4...Nxd5.
Bf4 variation met with 6...Nbd7.
Mainline with 7...Nbd7.
Catalan, mainline stuff with ...Be7, ...0-0, ...dxc4, ...a6

The most interesting part to me is the last part of the book, which provides a repertoire which meets both Nf3 and Nc3 with ...a6. The aim to to try and wrangle some winning chances.

I've never really played the QGD seriously. I'm curious about the 4...Nxd5 against the exchange. Does it not make sense to have the semi-Tarrasch as the weapon against the mainline if this is what black is going to do against the exchange? I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable might enlighten me here.


Your reasoning seems valid to me.

I couldn't find this on Amazon. I found it at:
https://www.chessdirect.co.uk/acatalog/Play-1.d4-d5-2.c4-e6--x8818.html

"1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.e3, Kornev analyses a variation, which has been lately preferred by Vishy Anand and Vladimir Kramnik - 7..Nbd7"

I haven't been so happy with black when white plays 6Bxf6. I expect he covers those lines also.


I imagine it will be very similar lines to those covered in the excellent Quality Chess book by Ntirlis. In that case, the preferred move order is Be7 / Nbd7 before h6. That way there are no problems with the 6.Bf6 lines you dislike Free Republic, as Nf6 would take away most of the point.
  
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #3 - 03/04/18 at 18:33:53
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The problem is that neither 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 nor 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 leads to the Semi-Tarrasch.
  
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #2 - 03/04/18 at 18:20:24
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4..Nxd5 is an interesting choice, especially since Korneev thought it was advantageous to White in his earlier book from the White side. 

After 4.. Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 c5, Korneev recommended entering the Semi-Tarrasch with 7.Nf3.  But White can also try 7.a3 and 7.Rb1.  The theoretical verdict of all these lines seems to shift between +/= and =. 

The problem with using the Semi-Tarrasch as a defense to the main line is that it does not work against the traditional move order: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5.
« Last Edit: 03/05/18 at 02:11:28 by LeeRoth »  
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Re: Kornev's QGD
Reply #1 - 03/04/18 at 18:18:51
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gillbod wrote on 03/04/18 at 10:32:09:
Another new Kornev book, it seems, providing a full repertoire to d4, c4.

Quick overview of lines (stolen from the Forward Chess preview):

Exchange variation with 4...Nxd5.
Bf4 variation met with 6...Nbd7.
Mainline with 7...Nbd7.
Catalan, mainline stuff with ...Be7, ...0-0, ...dxc4, ...a6

The most interesting part to me is the last part of the book, which provides a repertoire which meets both Nf3 and Nc3 with ...a6. The aim to to try and wrangle some winning chances.

I've never really played the QGD seriously. I'm curious about the 4...Nxd5 against the exchange. Does it not make sense to have the semi-Tarrasch as the weapon against the mainline if this is what black is going to do against the exchange? I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable might enlighten me here.


Your reasoning seems valid to me.

I couldn't find this on Amazon. I found it at:
https://www.chessdirect.co.uk/acatalog/Play-1.d4-d5-2.c4-e6--x8818.html

"1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.e3, Kornev analyses a variation, which has been lately preferred by Vishy Anand and Vladimir Kramnik - 7..Nbd7"

I haven't been so happy with black when white plays 6Bxf6. I expect he covers those lines also.
  
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