Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni? (Read 10087 times)
George Jempty
Senior Member
****
Offline


Participant 1996 US Corres.
Champ. Qualifying Rd.

Posts: 300
Location: Carrollton, TX
Joined: 03/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #20 - 12/07/25 at 04:00:40
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 10/04/25 at 19:55:19:


<SNIP>

The major objection goes:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. h3 Bg7 6. Nf3 O-O 7. e4 e6 8. Bd3 ed5 9. ed5!? Re8ch 10. Be3 Bh6 11. O-O!? Be3 12. fe3

I learned today that Black has been doing well lately with the exchange sacrifice 10...Rxe3!?


Black gets some compensation, but still labors under a -0.7 disadvantage with SF at depth 55+, but obviously White needs to know to react
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George Jempty
Senior Member
****
Offline


Participant 1996 US Corres.
Champ. Qualifying Rd.

Posts: 300
Location: Carrollton, TX
Joined: 03/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #19 - 12/07/25 at 01:33:01
Post Tools
Um, because the Modern Benoni practically loses by force?  I've absolutely crushed it in FICGS centaur correspondence play.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 940
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #18 - 10/14/25 at 16:04:47
Post Tools
Speaking of the delayed and modern benonis, Modern-chess has reduced the price of some older titles that could be of interest:

Complete Repertoire against 1.d4 - Late Benoni by GM Boris Chatalbashev      March 6, 2016 

Complete Modern Benoni Repertoire - Part 1 & part 2 by GM Mihail Marin      November 7, 2017

among others.

There are newer titles, but they cost more. A dabbler might want to economize with an older title. A devotee might want old and new!

For the moment, there is also a 65% off sale. Buy two titles and receive an additional quantity discount of 10%.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1842
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #17 - 10/07/25 at 16:25:03
Post Tools
I have analyzed this exchange sac quite a bit over the years and would have no problems playing it. Certainly once you show the computers the standard plan of lopping off one set of knights, retreated the queen back to e7, then installing the second knight on e5, they change their evaluation quite a bit. It's all in the logistics of making that plan happen, mostly. Grin 

Jobava has played some bangers from this position using the plan of playing ...h5 then dropping a piece on g4 - objectlvely not good in some spots, but in Titled Tuesdays no one is going to defend correctly, and he attacks like a genius.

I'd love to crowdsource a solid solution to the Classical (or Old, whatever you want to call it) Main Line against the Delayed Benoni, that being 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.Nf3 O-O 7.Be2 e6 8.O-O and then what? 

A)
8...Re8!? 9.h3! is quite annoying, e.g. 9...exd5 10.exd5! Bf5 11.Re1! Ne4 (what else?) 12.Nxe4 Bxe4 13.Bg5! and after the queen moves 14.Nd2! is troublesome. 

B)
8...exd5 9.exd5! and now:

9...Re8 10.h3! is likely to transpose to 8...Re8 above.

9...Bf5 10.Nh4! strikes me as likely to transpose back to A again if White wants, e.g. 10...Bd7 11.h3 Re8 12.Nf3 Bf5 13.Re1, etc.

Perhaps best is just going 9...Bg4 and getting rid of the LSB for good, e.g. 10.h3 (10.Bf4!? might be an objectively better move) 10...Bxf3 11.Bxf3 and now 11...Nbd7 has been played the most by far, but SF suggests the interesting multi-purpose move 11...Ne8!?. Black stops Bg5, may threaten to enter Nimzo-like positions after ...Bxc3, and prepares ...Nc7 or ...f5. Here is a correspondence game with the latter, in which Black continues with the usual plan in these structures, that being ...f5, ...h6, ...g5, etc. Worse the whole time of course (two bishops + space, computers will always hate it), but in correspondence chess this isn't as big of a deal. 

https://lichess.org/18aACVch

https://lichess.org/PKxKGwWm



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2113
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #16 - 10/07/25 at 13:23:23
Post Tools
Definitely to the last Smiley

I was intrigued and gave it a mixed strength computer tournament - it actually did pretty well overall. 65% to white, 43% draws with several black wins. 
(Mostly with SF16 etc vs pre neural net engines but that's normal.).

The computers weren't doing anything remotely unnatural after the exchange sacrifice, just playing standard benoni style moves - Qe7, Nbd7 etc - and seemingly often finding an e5/d4 bishop was roughly worth a rook.

Or at least close enough for them to work with. It never simplified quickly either. In some ways it almost seems to define the ideal sort of modern winning try?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #15 - 10/06/25 at 07:48:46
Post Tools
In contrast I'll point out that Stockfish becomes less and less optimistic about White's chances over time after 10...Rxe3+ 11.fxe3 Nfd7!? GM Bischoff has played this twice about 40 years ago. Unbelievers shouldn't play any Benoni anyway.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4974
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #14 - 10/05/25 at 17:25:09
Post Tools
I seem to recall a remark by Jan Gustafsson that that 10...Rxe3+ sac was played by "true believers." David Vigorito in Chess Publishing wrote that "technically it is probably not sufficient," "but perhaps nothing is."

I've noticed that the old ...Nh5 approach seems to be quite out of favor. One game that stuck in my memory was won by Murey (who died last month) as black against Lautier in 1989.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #13 - 10/05/25 at 16:26:45
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 10/04/25 at 19:55:19:
I learned today that Black has been doing well lately with the exchange sacrifice 10...Rxe3!?

Thanks, this is interesting. I own GM Ivanisevic' book and it's this Modern Main Line that scared me off.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 940
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #12 - 10/05/25 at 15:59:43
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 10/03/25 at 22:05:04:
Razuvaev-Tseshkovsky from 1978,

Good game. It's evident that with the Black pieces, I would have lost to Razuvaev. With the White pieces I would have lost to Tseshkovsky.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 940
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #11 - 10/04/25 at 19:55:19
Post Tools
In recent years I've tended towards lines that I deem more solid than the MBO or KID. Sometimes it's a concern about a specific line. Sometimes it is a concern about the number of lines that need preparation. However, other openings have their issues too.

MNb: "Black can avoid the Flick Knife with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.e4 Bg7 6.f4 O-O 7.Nf3 e6."

The idea of delaying ...e6 ...exd has been around a long time. The most recent book that I'm aware is available at Forward Chess:  The Modernized Delayed Benoni by Ivan Ivanisevic, Dec 16, 2019.
https://forwardchess.com/product/the-modernized-delayed-benoni?section=Search

The major objection goes:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. h3 Bg7 6. Nf3 O-O 7. e4 e6 8. Bd3 ed5 9. ed5!? Re8ch 10. Be3 Bh6 11. O-O!? Be3 12. fe3

I learned today that Black has been doing well lately with the exchange sacrifice 10...Rxe3!?

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Using the position search feature at Chess Publishing turns up eight annotated games.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #10 - 10/04/25 at 06:14:47
Post Tools
The4 Modern Benoni also remains very playable as an anti-Catalan weapon: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.d5 (4.Nf3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 d5) exd5 5.cxd5 d6.
Black can avoid the Flick Knife with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.e4 Bg7 6.f4 O-O 7.Nf3 e6.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4974
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #9 - 10/03/25 at 22:05:04
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 10/03/25 at 19:09:27:
A line that I think has a good reputation for Black proceeds:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c5 4. d5 exd5 5. cxd5 d6 6. Nc3 g6 7. e4 Bg7 8. Be2 O-O 9. O-O a6 10. a4 Bg4 11. Bf4 Bf3 12. Bf3 Qe7 13. Re1 Nbd7. Yet I wasn't sure I knew how to proceed as Black.

This kind of position reminds me of a game Razuvaev-Tseshkovsky from 1978, which was used in the 1980s book "Test Your Positional Play."
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1320251

A blitz game by Carlsen as black against GM Le Tuan Minh a few months ago was similar. (Magnus, like Tseshkovsky, played ...Ne8-c7.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 940
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #8 - 10/03/25 at 19:09:27
Post Tools
The Modern Benoni Opening (MBO) is out of style. It was popular when Fischer played it and for a while thereafter, but that was a long time ago.

Titled players still prepare books, data bases, and courses promoting the MBO, but not so many. I haven't kept up with theory. So I decided to take game statistics as a guide. 
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3 ed5 5. cd5 d6

According to Chess Assistant 24, 2021-2024.
=435 +1472, -1128. That is a very good score for Black.

Perhaps Black players chose the MBO against weaker opponents. So, I decided to restrict players to rating ranges.

2000 to 2100
=2 +6 -11
Great for Black

2100 to 2200
=10 +27 -16
suboptimal but acceptable for Black

2200 to 2300
=17 +60 -37
Ok. Acceptable for Black

2300 to 2400
=13 +28 -16
suboptimal but acceptable for Black

2400 to 2500
=10 +33 -25
good for Black

These are not gold standard statistics, but no refutation either. Of course theory and statistics will likely vary by variation. I'll leave that effort to others.

The last time I looked at the MBO for Black, I didn't know what to do about 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Nc3 ed5 5. cd5 d6 6. Nf3 g6 7. Bf4 Bg7 8. e3

A line that I think has a good reputation for Black proceeds:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c5 4. d5 exd5 5. cxd5 d6 6. Nc3 g6 7. e4 Bg7 8. Be2 O-O 9. O-O a6 10. a4 Bg4 11. Bf4 Bf3 12. Bf3 Qe7 13. Re1 Nbd7. Yet I wasn't sure I knew how to proceed as Black.

It may have been Tal who said the MBO was an opening for pirates. That is probably as true now as ever.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George Jempty
Senior Member
****
Offline


Participant 1996 US Corres.
Champ. Qualifying Rd.

Posts: 300
Location: Carrollton, TX
Joined: 03/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #7 - 10/03/25 at 15:17:10
Post Tools
"The fact that there are so many lines capable of causing Black problems, probably says something about the fundamental soundness of the opening."

King's Gambit, anyone?  What a pile of garbage.  Even my suboptimal Cunningham's defense has served me well exclusively for over half a century.   

As for the Benoni, now that just this year I've changed to 1.d4, I will absolutely stick with positively crushing PAWN STORM variation (flick knife LOL).  The Benoni almost loses by force, so it's hardly a surprise that it's entirely discounted  by IM/GM types.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1520
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Why so much hatred towards the Modern Benoni?
Reply #6 - 03/13/18 at 19:25:12
Post Tools
I would say that there is "distrust" towards the Benoni.  And why not?  The opening is anti-positional.  Black gives White more space and a mobile pawn center in exchange for a bag of tricks.  In any opening like that, there's a feeling that, once White figures out how to deal with the tactics, his positional trumps will tell.

Larsen said that when he threw the Modern Benoni in the basket marked "incorrect," Gligoric would agree.  When Kasparov crushed Nunn with the Flick Knife attack at the 1982 Olympiad, it just about put the Benoni out of business.  Nunn himself said as much in his subsequent Benoni book.

It seems like every couple of years there's a new White system that causes Black problems.  The Flick Knife, the Modern Main Line, the Bf4/e3 line, the Half-Samisch, the Bf4 system, the Fianchetto, the Four Pawns...  The fact that there are so many lines capable of causing Black problems, probably says something about the fundamental soundness of the opening.

I've played the Benoni through thick and thin, although I paired it with the Nimzo for a while to avoid the Flick Knife and then the Modern Main Line.  Today, I play it straight up.  I'm not entirely convinced Black equalizes, but, hey, when things go well for Black in the Benoni, its a whole lot of fun. Wink 

    
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo