Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What's your "Bogey opening"? (Read 25423 times)
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #51 - 06/02/18 at 18:05:13
Post Tools
MaxJudd wrote on 06/02/18 at 15:59:37:
As White when I play a d pawn special approach to avoid the KID and Gruenfeld, I do really well with e4 transpositions to the Pirc and not very well with actually playing the Torre or Barry.  I accept that the Barry isn't a serious approach to an advantage but I shouldn't be worse right of the opening. 

My experience is similar. I think it has a lot to do with the Black players, to be honest. When they accept the Pirc transposition, they're often move ordered into it and not really prepared, which is of course very dangerous in the 150 attack: It can become sharp surprisingly fast. While if they allow the Barry Attack, they often have some concrete line in mind.

The classical Barry Attack with e3/Be2 doesn't feel worth playing anymore; Black has found several good solutions. Maybe there is some life left in lines with Qd2 or an early h4.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #50 - 06/02/18 at 17:15:59
Post Tools
MaxJudd wrote on 06/02/18 at 15:59:37:
I accept that the Barry isn't a serious approach to an advantage but I shouldn't be worse right of the opening. 


Really?  Why not? 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxJudd
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 108
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #49 - 06/02/18 at 15:59:37
Post Tools
As White when I play a d pawn special approach to avoid the KID and Gruenfeld, I do really well with e4 transpositions to the Pirc and not very well with actually playing the Torre or Barry.  I accept that the Barry isn't a serious approach to an advantage but I shouldn't be worse right of the opening.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #48 - 06/02/18 at 05:01:50
Post Tools
No. I personally find the 3.Nc3 main lines the easiest move to play against the French both otb and in corr..The amount of theory never bothered be a lot because almost always moves I think intuitive are good moves. The exception again is the Burn Variation.
Let me give you an example. One of the strongest Surinamese players, Roger Matoewi, once invited the Winawer Poisoned Pawn. Instead I played Geller's 8.Bd3 and won easily by simply marching the h-pawn. As Black I've tried to Poisoned Pawn myself twice. Theoreticall I was supposed to be OK, but I lost because of that very same h-pawn ....
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #47 - 06/01/18 at 21:11:40
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 06/01/18 at 19:42:13:

For me it was the other way round. The French used to be my bogey opening as White until I started to play 4.e5 against the Winawer and 5.e5 against the MacCutcheon.
However the Burn Variation remains a pima. Fortunately I've met it quite rarely.


Would you say 3.Nc3 is easier to play in corr. than otb? In corr. you don't have to remember in advance what to do against all of Black's serious lines and sidelines.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #46 - 06/01/18 at 19:42:13
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 04/16/18 at 16:41:16:
I wonder if the posters here who struggle so much with the French are hampered by a feeling they have to play serious main lines against it.

For me it was the other way round. The French used to be my bogey opening as White until I started to play 4.e5 against the Winawer and 5.e5 against the MacCutcheon.
However the Burn Variation remains a pima. Fortunately I've met it quite rarely.
As I wrote a white ago I've given up the French as Black because of 3.Nc3, after playing it for more than 15 yeqrs in both corr. and otb games. I am unbeaten against everything but 3.Nc3. So I've no idea what you guys are taliking about .....  Cheesy
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #45 - 06/01/18 at 13:34:51
Post Tools
JEH wrote on 06/01/18 at 13:09:58:

Another side line for White is to play a d3 based system (recommended in  "A Simple Chess Opening Repertoire for White" by Sam Collins), leaving Black players in their shell wondering what to do with no d4 pawn to attack whilst you develop your bits and crack them open with a later f4-f5. 

Good point. This line could be a good solution for IsaVulpes in particular: As long as the pawn is only on d3, he won't be using up all his time calculating d4-d5!  Grin
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #44 - 06/01/18 at 13:09:58
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 06/01/18 at 12:33:33:
Level of opposition has something to do with it, of course. I don't think I've ever had anyone above 2200 play the Scandinavian against me, and most of the Scandinavian players I have faced didn't seem well versed in theory (at least on 3.Nf3).


I've used the 3. Nf3 approach for decades, planning to get a tempo on the Queen with c4. 

3. Nc3 might be the best play for advantage, but you need to know how to deal with all the different Queen moves and would be facing Black players on their home turf where they have spent most time studying.

Another side line for White is to play a d3 based system (recommended in  "A Simple Chess Opening Repertoire for White" by Sam Collins), leaving Black players in their shell wondering what to do with no d4 pawn to attack whilst you develop your bits and crack them open with a later f4-f5. 

Black would be equal with best play against this, but then players capable of best play wouldn't aren't likely to be playing the Scandinavian  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #43 - 06/01/18 at 12:33:33
Post Tools
IsaVulpes wrote on 06/01/18 at 09:12:34:

My only real 'bogey opening' left appears to be the Scandinavian.. 
It just seems to be an opening so silly that I have a hard time motivating myself to look at it seriously, and then I never understand in what kind of position it's good to go for the d4-d5 break and when it's not; [...]


It sounds like you're playing 3.Nc3 main lines against the Scandinavian? Let me again suggest going for something just slightly less mainstream (though fully respectable) and looking at Andrew Greet's coverage of 3.Nf3 in Beating Unusual Chess Defences: 1 e4. I don't even know the lines in full detail, but have close to a 100% score OTB with White there.

Level of opposition has something to do with it, of course. I don't think I've ever had anyone above 2200 play the Scandinavian against me, and most of the Scandinavian players I have faced didn't seem well versed in theory (at least on 3.Nf3).
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IsaVulpes
Senior Member
****
Offline


No.

Posts: 345
Joined: 12/09/07
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #42 - 06/01/18 at 09:12:34
Post Tools
Used to be a part of the "French is annoying" squad; had okayish results with 2.d3 it was never really something I *wanted* to play. 
I kept trying to learn 3.Nc3 both on my own and later with the Negi GM Rep and never got anywhere. Haven't looked back since switching to the Advance; just much less effort and much more understandable positions to me.
My first OTB game with it then also turned into a very one-sided crush, which provided me with the last tidbits of confidence needed  Smiley
I might eventually look into this stuff http://www.spraggettonchess.com/the-french-exchange-variation/ as a 2ndary variation, but for now I'm quite happy with what I got.

My only real 'bogey opening' left appears to be the Scandinavian.. 
It just seems to be an opening so silly that I have a hard time motivating myself to look at it seriously, and then I never understand in what kind of position it's good to go for the d4-d5 break and when it's not; 
So I waste endless amounts of time attempting to calculate it on every turn, never actually dare to do it, and just end up moving pieces around randomly until my opponent has finished his development and there isn't a semblance of an advantage left, with my d4 pawn getting weaker on every turn  Sad
I just seem unable to figure out when d4-d5 causes me to be left over with a clearly superior position thanks to piece acivity etc, and when it merely gives away my space advantage while inviting several piece trades, ending up in a rather dead position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Monocle
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 112
Joined: 12/03/16
Gender: Male
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #41 - 05/31/18 at 20:38:14
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 04/19/18 at 18:32:31:
The Advance is underrated. I also used to think it was what Black wanted, but I have yet to find lines I'm comfortable defending against strong opponents. My attempts to follow Ntirlis and Aagaard were a disaster; those ...c5-c4 positions just aren't for me. Earlier I tried copying French defense legend Wolfgang Uhlmann with 5...Qb6 6.a3 c4 7.Nbd2 f6, but if White knows the main line against it there's not much fun for Black.


I switched to the Advance after having trouble with the McCutcheon, but for some reason at the time I found it very difficult to play.  On one occasion I lost on time after 27 moves, and another time it took me 90-something moves to beat a player graded around 50 ECF points less than me (or about 400 Elo points), and even then I only won by random tactical opportunism.

Amusingly, one of the few games I won convincingly with the Advance was against the player who used to beat me in the McCutcheon, and he switched to 1.e4 e5 whenever I played him after that, so I guess the Advance served its purpose there.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zedwardson
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 11
Joined: 05/17/18
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #40 - 05/31/18 at 04:28:08
Post Tools
I hate playing vs. the nimzo indian as white.  I also love playing it as black.   I actually avoid the d4, c4, nc3 setup as white vs. the ...e6 and ...nf6 setup only due to not wanting to deal with the nimzo indian.   

Been playing english and London system of late to avoid those lines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fjd
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #39 - 05/19/18 at 21:33:44
Post Tools
Yeah, you're playing 1 d4 d5 2 c4 dc4 3 e3 e5 4 Bxc4 ed4 5 ed4 a tempo down, assuming Bf1-d3, d5xc4 and Bd3xc4 occur at some point in the c4 Exchange French. Although another way of looking at it is that the French version is "normal" and White is a tempo up in the QGA.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobbyDigital80
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 357
Joined: 05/15/08
Gender: Male
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #38 - 05/19/18 at 20:54:52
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 04/10/18 at 07:30:34:
Having the Exchange French with c4 up your sleeve can have its points in dealing with some relative rarities as well as the obvious 1. e4 e6.

You can meet Nf6 Scandinavians with 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. c4 e6 4. d4 (if they play .. c6, then again d4 for a Panov).

It's also available as a weapon against the Petrov with 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d3 Nf6 6. d4 d5 7. c4 . They don't have to play .. d5 but you take the space anyway. After 7. .. dxc4 you are also in a Queens Gambit Accepted. 

I've found Scandinavians with .. Qd6 difficult to play against. An idea I've yet to play in practice is to give up a tempo to possibly transpose to those passive lines where Black goes 3. .. Qd8. So it runs 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd6 4. Nb5 Qd8 5. d4 c6 6. Nc3 with Black to move. Normally it would go 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd8 4. d4 c6 with White to move.




These are all very interesting! Thanks! I used to be interested in the exchange variation with c4 against the French, and I had no idea that you could get the same position from all those other lines you mentioned. I think I'll try them out in blitz. I remember reading somewhere that you're playing a certain line of the Queen's Gambit Accepted a tempo down, but it maybe it doesn't matter all that much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxJudd
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 108
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: What's your "Bogey opening"?
Reply #37 - 04/21/18 at 15:55:01
Post Tools
That is interesting.  The Kupreichik Advance might be a good idea for the French from a 1. d4 e6 2. e4 move order.  I've tended to go with the various c4 Exchange variations in that case as the typical Dutch Stonewall player isn't looking for relatively open pawn structure with the move order they picked and I find the c4 Exchange easy to play even if it is also easy enough to neutralize for someone with a little knowledge.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo