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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Play only decent openings against juniors? (Read 10849 times)
motörhead
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #18 - 05/07/18 at 22:33:57
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Interesting topic.

I reflected for some time whether it may be suitable for kids to play all sorts of gambits in their budding time.

And for now I think so.

The main goal is to make them play for development. Gambits normally serve that goal.
You get some developmental advantage an then you play. The mission is "get out, get out".

The main argument for this open approach:
Just look at the statistics: Weaker players - and these are the most likely opponents fur budding juniors - make simply more errors than stronger ones.

Shaking the common foundation with a gambit may result in a active, pressing game - despite the little lack of a pawn or a piece...
Using those Statistics may make the opening choise more aggressive - as mistakes are on the way for the opponent.
  

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Jupp53
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #17 - 05/07/18 at 11:28:01
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Just the Budapest has some lines teaching development principles very well. If you don't go too deep you get a lesson about development, centralisation, king safety, disturbing the opponents idea's which is the main part.

Additionally you learn being careful in fighting against sidelines. The Fajarowicz is a special case also teaching to be alert.

This is nothing special, as other openings are material to teach this too. My comment is not meant to promote the 2... e5 move. It is meant to respect it. The games with it might be fun and I would never censure a learning player to have some games with it. Chess is for amateurs too difficult, to exculde fun out of it.
  

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Monocle
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #16 - 05/05/18 at 10:21:42
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emary wrote on 05/01/18 at 18:36:31:
@ an ordinary chessplayer
My point is: 
If even the great Rubinstein goes down against the Budapest, 
it is optimistic to believe that juniors will find good moves 
without knowing theory if they are caught by surprise 
in a maybe ultimately dubious opening. 


Novices and juniors aren't expected to find good moves against the Budapest.  They also shouldn't be wasting their time studying theory in the Budapest on the off chance it is played against them.  The Budapest should not even be on their radar. 

What they need to do is learn to find good moves in common positions and thus get better at chess.  The better you are at chess, the easier it is to learn theory later.  Busting a novice in 10 moves in an opening they know nothing about, and is unlikely to be played against them by other novices, helps nobody.  It's just ego stroking for the stronger player.  The novice would benefit far more from the stronger player playing a mainline opening where they can actually play chess.

Novices won't get better at chess if they spend all their time either studying openings to the exclusion of all else (which is a trap many fall into), or are intimidated into playing boring "safe" openings like d-pawn specials (also a trap many fall into). 
  
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emary
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #15 - 05/01/18 at 18:36:31
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@ an ordinary chessplayer
My point is: 
If even the great Rubinstein goes down against the Budapest, 
it is optimistic to believe that juniors will find good moves 
without knowing theory if they are caught by surprise 
in a maybe ultimately dubious opening. 
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #14 - 05/01/18 at 12:16:40
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@emary - I don’t think you addressed the question. “Junior” was purposely open-ended, but certainly does not include Rubinstein.
  
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #13 - 05/01/18 at 11:50:21
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brabo wrote on 04/19/18 at 06:22:04:

Oh and my 9 year son just won the national title in the category -10 (so 1 year ahead of the competition) which is for me a strong indication that I made the right repertoire-choices for my son. Of course my son has an enormous advantage to his peers as he is the only one with a fide-master as father.


Congrats!
You should produce an article/post about this subject sometime!
  
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #12 - 05/01/18 at 02:21:23
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Monocle wrote on 04/15/18 at 13:54:22:
First game, I tried playing the Ruy Lopez, and he played the Schliemann.

Against 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 3...f5! is the most principled move and scores best against the Ruy Lopez below 1600. 

Monocle wrote on 04/15/18 at 13:54:22:

Next time I had white, I tried d4/c4 instead, and he played the Budapest.
 
With 1.d4 2.c4 White has developed nothing and has neglected his king side. It is obvious that after 1...Nf6 and 2...e5 White should be careful. 
Please look at the stem game Rubinstein - Vidmar, 22.4.1918, Berlin, Viermeisterturnier (commented in mega).   

I think beginners should avoid the Ruy Lopez and 1.d4 2.c4 with White. 1.d4 2.Nf3 moveorder is more sensible for beginners. 
Bronstein wrote about the advantages of 2.Nf3 somewhere and says Black is in a "Minizugzwang"
at move two.

Monocle wrote on 04/15/18 at 13:54:22:
It's better to play mainline openings against them, 
so that they don't fear the opening, 
learn that they can make good moves without knowing theory

and don't blame their mistakes and losses on opening surprises.
 
Better said than done. Look how Rubinstein (without knowing theory) goes down against Vidmar in the Budapest.   
I think you should fear the opening - especially if you are behind in development. 
  
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brabo
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #11 - 04/19/18 at 17:40:51
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In my article http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2017/09/jokes.html I wrote:
"While reading the book H.E. Bird of Hans Renette I noticed not only that in the 19th century a lot of matches are organized but also many games are played offhand. At that time it was normal to visit a club and play an informal game against some random available player. This we don't see often anymore today. If you don't make any appointment with a player in advance then you risk not getting any game in a club. I often encountered that I left the club after a half hour to go back home as I wasn't able to find anybody free willing to play chess with me.

This sets the bar for newcomers of course a lot higher. I sometimes hear people getting rejected of a championship as the competition has already started. They need to wait for a couple of months to join any new competition. A sad consequence is that many drop out immediately after the introduction. Today we don't have enough fresh blood so this only accelerates the ageing of the club.

Likely the wide choice of tournaments explains the lack of interest in offhand games today. Most regular clubplayers don't want to play anything else than the tournaments and prefer to have a drink at the bar when they have finished their games. It is a pity as those offhand games are ideal to get softly introduced to our noble game. The score is not recorded and it allows you to experiment without needing to worry about the outcome. In offhand games it is not forbidden to talk or laugh during play at contrary as it often creates a positive ambiance."
  
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #10 - 04/19/18 at 16:38:24
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In a rated game, I will of course choose the most effective opening; if it is particularly unpleasant for the opponent then so much the better. I should clarify that my concern in this case is casual club play, and is less about whether the juniors will lose to junk, and more about whether they will emulate it. But of course other considerations can be important as well.
  
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brabo
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #9 - 04/19/18 at 06:22:04
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I touched this subject a couple of months ago in a blogarticle: http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2018/01/halloween.html
"I sometimes hear parents complain that their children lose games due to those kind of dubious gambits. They find it lame that some players try to win by using traps so preventing their children to play a full game of chess. However traps are also an important part of chess which you need to deal with. Or you adapt the repertoire to avoid those kind of gambits or you learn the anti-dotes often after a number of losses. Recently I was again criticized of not willing to let my son play some main-openings. This would be bad for this development. Personally I don't see what the benefit is of letting my son lose games in less than 20 moves due to some traps. Today it is more important to let him play long games. First priority for him should be to build up a solid position and how to proceed instead of learning a number of theoretical moves."
Oh and my 9 year son just won the national title in the category -10 (so 1 year ahead of the competition) which is for me a strong indication that I made the right repertoire-choices for my son. Of course my son has an enormous advantage to his peers as he is the only one with a fide-master as father.
  
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #8 - 04/18/18 at 22:04:18
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I'm pleased that this topic is generating some opinions both yeah and nay. At least my own mixed feelings are somewhat validated.

@barnaby - Please don't be diplomatic. I want to know what you really think.
  
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #7 - 04/18/18 at 21:04:42
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Well, I myself don't play trappy trash or "rabbit-bashing" openings against anyone, in part because it offends my taste and in part because I don't want to lose the habit of playing the best move. But when a child is my opponent and not my student, then I do not spare him, nor would I expect him to spare me. I remember once playing some innocent kid, and suddenly my kingside was going down in flames as he sacrificed two pieces, apparently soundly. I went for complications and barely survived when he hesitated in the face of possible counterplay on the g-file. Afterward I found out it was Jordy Mont-Renaud, who later became the then-youngest master in American history. He would have defeated me if he could have. 

Playing to beat your opponent is the nature of chess. I'm not sure if losing to a trap is very instructive, but one must learn to tolerate many kinds of losing if one is to thrive.

I didn't have a post-mortem with Mont-Renaud, but I would hope, that in a post-mortem with a kid I could impart some wisdom--most especially the impression that hostilities need extend only from a1 to h8.

« Last Edit: 04/19/18 at 11:09:57 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #6 - 04/18/18 at 17:49:59
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Jupp53 wrote on 04/18/18 at 13:43:04:
They got to learn what's right or wrong and to think themselves. Sidelines are pretty good to show lack of knowledge and if they take the discussion after a game wrong, it's their fault.

This is wrong consideration here in the topic. Pain is the key of learning.



+1

You said it much more diplomatically then I would have.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #5 - 04/18/18 at 13:43:04
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They got to learn what's right or wrong and to think themselves. Sidelines are pretty good to show lack of knowledge and if they take the discussion after a game wrong, it's their fault.

This is wrong consideration here in the topic. Pain is the key of learning.
  

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Re: Play only decent openings against juniors?
Reply #4 - 04/16/18 at 13:56:59
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There certainly isn't anything worse than trying to teach a Junior that 1.e4 e5 2.Qh5 isn't the greatest idea in the world, and then hearing "But I saw Nakamura play it, so it must be good". So yeah, please keep your funky experimental joke openings out of sight of youngsters  Wink
  
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