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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black? (Read 21340 times)
nocteus
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #26 - 08/17/18 at 07:37:08
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+1 for Keres, I would add Spassky also.
I know a guy who likes Lilov's Opening Repertoire for the Positional Player (https://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/lilov_opening_repertoire_for_the_position...). From what I understood, it gives a good ground for building a future repertoire (in white and black), and the necessary knowledge to start playing right away (it gives lines for caro-kann players and e4 e5 players).
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #25 - 08/16/18 at 18:11:11
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As for the Evans, it pays to remember that the choice is really between 3..Bc5 and 3..Nf6, and if you are trying to stay solid, then 3..Bc5 is pretty clearly the way to go.  Moreover, the Evans doesn’t come up all that often and it isn’t hard to learn a line against it.  Declined is fine — Carlsen’s done it in blitz/bullet — and, even if you accept, in comparison to the Ng5 Two Knights, you’ll at least be up a pawn, rather than down a pawn.
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #24 - 08/16/18 at 17:51:41
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TD wrote on 08/16/18 at 06:36:16:
MNb wrote on 08/16/18 at 05:21:55:
TD wrote on 08/14/18 at 15:37:37:
I am more inclined to a slow built up in the opening. Also my energy, memory and concentration are (a bit) less than when I was younger.

Funny, how the OP unambiguously specifies his strength and weakness and almost everybody recommends lines that require exactly the opposite. It's almost like they're trying to discourage TD from playing the Open Games.

MNb, you're absolutely right! Smiley I am very grateful for everybody's input, but the more replies I read (and had a peak at Bologan's books) the more "scared" I became for the amount of work and all those sharp lines and gambits that were trying to "kill" me. For now I will stick to the Scandinavian, but will certainly browse (not study!) some books about the Open Games for a lesson in chess history and to improve my overall chess education and understanding. And as stated earlier, maybe I can surprise my clubmates with an occasional 1...e5!


+1.  MNb has given excellent advice throughout this thread.  I would suggest following it.

One book suggestion:  The Kaufman Repertoire covers 1..e5 for Black (including the Breyer) and may be a bit more accessible than Bologan, Marin, Ntrilis, Lokander, et al.

But if all you want is a general education and/or chess history lesson, then I would suggest that you not get an opening book, and instead study classic GM games.  Keres is particularly good on the Black side of 1..e5.
  
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MNb
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #23 - 08/16/18 at 14:15:52
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TD wrote on 08/16/18 at 06:36:16:
And as stated earlier, maybe I can surprise my clubmates with an occasional 1...e5!

Then I do hope you will glance at my recommendations on the previous page. That's my answer to Gorath as well. He's right that even then you need some concrete knowledge (like the somewhat offbeat version of the famous pseudosac ...Nxe4) but
a) I suspect that almost all of your opponents won't have much concrete knowledge in those lines either;
b) I selected them to increase the chance to get the kind of play you are looking for. Whether I succeeded is another question of course and up to you to decide.

Gorath wrote on 08/16/18 at 07:06:25:
It's difficult against Evans Gambit too, unless 4.- Bb6 works.

Sort of. There is of course that Kasparov game from 1996 to deal with, but I've looked at the Evans Gambit from White's side of view and it's extremely hard to demonstrate an objective edge in the Evans Declined.
  

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Gorath
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #22 - 08/16/18 at 07:06:25
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MNb wrote on 08/16/18 at 05:21:55:
Funny, how the OP unambiguously specifies his strength and weakness and almost everybody recommends lines that require exactly the opposite. It's almost like they're trying to discourage TD from playing the Open Games.

Sounds like a good point ... on the surface. But which major opening for black can be played without at least a bit of concrete knowledge? 
The Giuoco Piano and a couple of IGs, the 4N, the SO and the RL can be kept under control if you know how to reach a stable variation of your choice. Then the burdon of proof is on white. If he is booked up he can ask a couple of questions, if not it's equal with natural moves. This should be the vast majority of the games. 

The old fashioned violent openings, which were thought to be defused around the time of Steinitz, are often tries to blow black off the board immediately. (I'm simplifying here.) Many of them require precise handling for a couple of moves to get all your pieces out safely, and then there's nothing for white. See Capablanca's variation against the Nordic Gambit, the Scotch Gambit and half the Ponziani for example. 3 pages of theory gives a good game against 3 openings. If you want even more than equality, it gets very concrete, based on newish computer variations which allow to take pawns and keep them. But that's only *necessary* against very few openings. Against 2.d4 exd4 3.Qxd4 ... 0-0-0 you can't avoid a direct confrontation without giving ground. It's difficult against Evans Gambit too, unless 4.- Bb6 works. And if the fight is forced upon you, why not try to win it? The good news is that it's no free ride, white runs just as much risk as black. If not more. Last I looked both openings were hardly = for white. Wink
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #21 - 08/16/18 at 06:36:16
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MNb wrote on 08/16/18 at 05:21:55:
TD wrote on 08/14/18 at 15:37:37:
I am more inclined to a slow built up in the opening. Also my energy, memory and concentration are (a bit) less than when I was younger.

Funny, how the OP unambiguously specifies his strength and weakness and almost everybody recommends lines that require exactly the opposite. It's almost like they're trying to discourage TD from playing the Open Games.

MNb, you're absolutely right! Smiley I am very grateful for everybody's input, but the more replies I read (and had a peak at Bologan's books) the more "scared" I became for the amount of work and all those sharp lines and gambits that were trying to "kill" me. For now I will stick to the Scandinavian, but will certainly browse (not study!) some books about the Open Games for a lesson in chess history and to improve my overall chess education and understanding. And as stated earlier, maybe I can surprise my clubmates with an occasional 1...e5!
  
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MNb
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #20 - 08/16/18 at 05:21:55
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TD wrote on 08/14/18 at 15:37:37:
I am more inclined to a slow built up in the opening. Also my energy, memory and concentration are (a bit) less than when I was younger.

Funny, how the OP unambiguously specifies his strength and weakness and almost everybody recommends lines that require exactly the opposite. It's almost like they're trying to discourage TD from playing the Open Games.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #19 - 08/16/18 at 01:01:05
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TD wrote on 08/15/18 at 07:36:19:
I bought the books second hand. I have not enough money to buy more (new) books, alas. If I would buy one new book, which one should that be, you think? Ntirlis, Johnsen, Emms?

Okay, I'm buying dozens of books used every year, so I can understand that. Wink

Which new book to buy depends heavily on your RL situation. If you don't need RL coverage, I would recommend Sverre Johnsen's book. It's the newest and it covers both 3. Bc4 Bc5 and 3. - Nf6. 

I really like Bologan's non-RL book, but I believe it's already outdated in the slow Italian and the 2N main variation chapters. 

I don't remember details about Lokander, not even if he covers the RL. I know though that I liked what I've seen. This book is a labour ofg love.

If you still need RL coverage and you like the Breyer, I would suggest Ntirlis. Bologan's second book covers the Breyer too, but one book should be enough. Ntirlis recommends the 2N though.

The quality of all these black repertoire books is high. Choosing one is a luxury problem. Maybe you want to download the sample chapters from the publishers' homepages and let your gut feeling decide.

It should be mentioned that IM Sielecki ( = ChessExplained) is working on an e4 e5 repertoire for black. It's scheduled for release on Chessable later this year. If he follows his old YouTube series he should recommend very solid variations close to Marin's books.


edit: Most, if not all, authors prefer to treat white's hyper-aggressive tries in a principled way. This means they're trying to refute them. Such a way of playing demands concrete knowledge. Often a second, calmer continuation is mentioned, but that's not always the case. There are openings like the Middle Gambit, in which white can force black into open combat with opposit side castling. There is no playing it safe in such a situation ...
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #18 - 08/15/18 at 22:02:52
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Hello TD, 

by all means try 1.e4 e5. 
There is much theory, but in most positions it is possible to find reasonable moves other the board.   

if you want to buy just one book about 1.e4 e5, I think Bologan's Black Weapons is your best choice. 
It covers everything but the Ruy Lopez. In most of his lines is plenty of play left, he really tries hard to avoid boring drawish positions. 

The book has great instructive value because of a lot of questions the coauthor FM Dabo-Peranic has asked and Bologan has tried to answer. 
Bologan gives lots of information, he has an arsenal of strategic ideas & themes (29 pages) after the introduction. 

If you work with the book or have a look at the preview from amazon, you should read the  introduction of Bologan's Black Weapons... (especially pages 11-13) 
very carefully. 
If you have no idea about Bologan's organization the book looks chaotic. 

You get two repertoires in one book from Bologan: 
One solid and one sharp.   

For instance against the King's gambit he covers 
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 exf4 for starters and 
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 d6 6.Nxg4 Be7 
                                       4.Bc4 g4 5.0-0 gxf3 
                         3.Bc4 Qh4+ etc. 

Top priority to learn: 
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 and now Bologan says 3...Nf6 has less theory than  3...Bc5 (both moves are covered!) 
 
If you want an (objectively risky) shortcut against 4.Ng5 
then the Fritz-Ulvestad variation is an option 
(not covered by Bologan):   
4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 
Now critical and best is 6.Bf1 which is very difficult to find 
other the board and is not so well known by amateurs. 
Despite good results I switched from the Ulvestad to the mainline 5...Na5 (Bologan's choice) because it is a great learning tool.   

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4:  Bd7 is Bologan's choice. 
Maybe 7...Bc5 (Ntirlis) is the better move but 7...Bd7 is again a great learning tool (doubled pawns, blockade, ...). 

1. e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 
7. Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3: Here I would replace 7...Qa5 (Bologan) by 7...Qd7! (Ntirlis, Johnsen) or 7...Qh5 (Johnsen). 

The moveorder 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 is annoying if you don't have the Two Knights in your repertoire. 
There are quite a few dangerous sidelines after 4...Bc5. 

Next step is the Scotch: 
Bologan recommends 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Bc5 
because there is less theory than after 4...Nf6 and the Mieses is too complicated for starters. But Bologan covers 4...Nf6 too. 
I would look at both moves. I think 4...Nf6 has the advantage that in the Mieses it is Black who chooses the line, after 4...Bc5 it is White. 

The Ruy Lopez is covered by Marin's book which you have already. If you want to buy one more book I would choose Bologan's Ruy Lopez 

(One repertoire around the Breyer, a second repertoire against the Marshall Attack.)   

On page 13 of the Black Weapons Bologan gives detailed advice how to prepare a complete repertoire quickly (very fast Lane).   


Bologan gives careful attention to White tries to play Black with one extra tempo. 
Of course this is not top priority, but for example 
1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.a3 d5? 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Qh5 
should better be avoided by Black. 
   

Very important: 
Bologan has almost no complete games. But each chapter has a lot of footnotes pointing to an appendix with game references. 
To get the games you need databases (and megabase is not at all enough to get all games).   

  
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nocteus
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #17 - 08/15/18 at 18:03:36
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TD wrote on 08/15/18 at 16:56:29:
nocteus wrote on 08/15/18 at 14:54:52:
Also, given the major preference of the amateurs for the Italian, you'll have to decide which poison you'd rather take : Evans or 2Knights?

In my region I have never seen the Evans being played (by amateurs).


I encountered it mainly in rapid tournaments, by the numerous hacker-players (they have a repertoire like Evans, Ng5 2Knights, Smith-Morra, Fantasy Caro, b4 French, etc.). But I had especially it once in my first ever tournament and I had never seen it before! That was my only loss, but it taught me to return pawns sometimes.

  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #16 - 08/15/18 at 16:56:29
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nocteus wrote on 08/15/18 at 14:54:52:
Also, given the major preference of the amateurs for the Italian, you'll have to decide which poison you'd rather take : Evans or 2Knights?

In my region I have never seen the Evans being played (by amateurs).
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #15 - 08/15/18 at 14:54:52
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Also, given the major preference of the amateurs for the Italian, you'll have to decide which poison you'd rather take : Evans or 2Knights?
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #14 - 08/15/18 at 11:47:33
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TD wrote on 08/15/18 at 07:36:19:
If I would buy one new book, which one should that be, you think? Ntirlis, Johnsen, Emms?

Given your preference for a gradual build up I'd say none of them. All 1.e4 e5 repertoire books I've seen present what the authors think best against annoying amateur stuff. And that means critical stuff those annoying amateurs are very familiar with, because they are critical for their pet openings. Such choices are excellent when you head for a principled theoretical battle (ie want to punish White for not playing the Ruy Lopez), but not necessarily so if you prefer practical stuff that fits your preferences.
The first edition of Emms' book for instance wants you to play ...Bb4+ against the Göring Gambit and ...d5 against the Danish gambit (or the other way round, I can't remember), which is highly unpractical.
Ntirlis only if you're interested in the Breyer. No matter how much I like to play the Two Knights as Black myself, a slow build up is not what you will get after 4.d4 and 4.Ng5.
  

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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #13 - 08/15/18 at 07:36:36
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Gorath wrote on 08/15/18 at 06:18:36:
TD wrote on 08/14/18 at 16:39:15:

I was thinking of the Closed Ruy Lopez. I already bought Marin's QC books and ordered "Play the Open Games As Black" from Emms and was thinking of buying "The Ruy Lopez: A Guide for Black" from Johnsen & Johannessen.

I don't get the logic behind that. At least 7 books on 1.e4 e5 have been released in the last few years. Each one with a different angle, and each one good to very good. Why buy 10 year old books?

The amount of theory isn't that much. On 1900 level you need one precise answer to every try to blow black off the board immediately, and then stable variations against RL, SO and the slow IG. All this can be done in 300 pages.


Those are still good books. 

However, I have had real problem finding a comfortable closed Ruy Lopez -line as the Marshall is out of question. Zaitsev is perhaps best, but allows the early draw repetition. Perhaps there is none.

  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #12 - 08/15/18 at 07:36:19
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Gorath wrote on 08/15/18 at 06:18:36:
TD wrote on 08/14/18 at 16:39:15:

I was thinking of the Closed Ruy Lopez. I already bought Marin's QC books and ordered "Play the Open Games As Black" from Emms and was thinking of buying "The Ruy Lopez: A Guide for Black" from Johnsen & Johannessen.

I don't get the logic behind that. At least 7 books on 1.e4 e5 have been released in the last few years. Each one with a different angle, and each one good to very good. Why buy 10 year old books?

I bought the books second hand. I have not enough money to buy more (new) books, alas. If I would buy one new book, which one should that be, you think? Ntirlis, Johnsen, Emms?
  
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