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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black? (Read 21326 times)
Gorath
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #11 - 08/15/18 at 06:18:36
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TD wrote on 08/14/18 at 16:39:15:

I was thinking of the Closed Ruy Lopez. I already bought Marin's QC books and ordered "Play the Open Games As Black" from Emms and was thinking of buying "The Ruy Lopez: A Guide for Black" from Johnsen & Johannessen.

I don't get the logic behind that. At least 7 books on 1.e4 e5 have been released in the last few years. Each one with a different angle, and each one good to very good. Why buy 10 year old books?

The amount of theory isn't that much. On 1900 level you need one precise answer to every try to blow black off the board immediately, and then stable variations against RL, SO and the slow IG. All this can be done in 300 pages.
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #10 - 08/15/18 at 00:37:30
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I thought I'd share my experience with what I meet the most as a 1 e4 e5 player.

From 28 tournament games over the last three-and-a-bit years where I had Black against 1 e4 (excluding the one game where I went for 1...c5 and got crushed); 

26 of the 28 players (who total averaged ~2034 national rating) chose 2 Nf3 (The remaining two games saw 2 f4 and 2 Bc4, a draw and a loss). From these 26, half played the Spanish, and half some other form of Open Game (Italian, Scotch or Four Knights). 7 of the aforementioned Spanish games went down the traditional absolute main line (i.e. 3...a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 0-0 Be7 6 Re1 b5 7 Bb3, and now either 7...0-0 or 7...d6), while the other 6 deviated in some way (4 Bxc6, 5 d3 or 5 Qe2).

Good luck in your 1 e4 e5 adventures!
  
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Stigma
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #9 - 08/14/18 at 23:37:10
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TD wrote on 08/14/18 at 15:37:37:
But I am a bit put off by the enormous amount of theory and the more tactical nature of the open games. I am more inclined to a slow built up in the opening. Also my energy, memory and concentration are (a bit) less than when I was younger.

There are many great players who have played 1.e4 e5 in a solid way, so that's absolutely possible. You could take one or more of those GMs as your model player and play through a bunch of their games, both with and without comments.

Karpov, Carlsen, Aronian and Kramnik come immediately to mind. But really with anyone whose main answer to the Ruy Lopez is either the Berlin or one of the Closed main lines, it's a good bet they're also doing something solid against many of the other White tries after 1.e4 e5.
  

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IsaVulpes
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #8 - 08/14/18 at 23:23:06
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/14/18 at 16:47:36:
IsaVulpes wrote on 08/14/18 at 15:57:55:
The amount of theory isn't really enormous, because most moves are natural ones, so even if you forget something, you can make do.
Ahem, the amount of theory in the open games IS enormous, and to have any success you need to know your share.

You need to know how to deal with the King's Gambit, and if you play something like the 2N against the Italian, probably some lines against 4.Ng5, as well as a baseline against the Scotch, as it's rather weird/concrete. The Scotch Gambit comes to mind as well, but now I'm already in "not sure if needed" territory.
Beyond that, most things are either extremely rare, or one can deal with them over the board. My FIDE is 2000, I don't feel like I know a whole lot, and I still out-opening all my opponents in every game.. 
If you find your opponent plays X, you can always prep for it specifically, and if you lose to Z, you will learn it after the game, and done. I lost an online Blitz game to the Danish where I got slaughtered, then I learned that one antidote line with Bb4 Bg4 Bf3: and Qc4 which takes all the fun out for White, and since then I've won every game against it (not that I've fought it very often since then). Not exactly an unsurmountable wall..

I don't know, maybe I just live in a theory-free-zone, but over here people generally are out of book on move 5 or so with either colour, so it doesn't matter too much if you're out of book earlier than them.

Here's a sample start to a game I had against a 2250 earlier this year:
 
We were both out of book on move 7, I just played what I deemed to be natural moves, and I was risk-free better on move 14.

Of course, sometimes you run into some weird sideline that your opponent knows, naturally once in a blue moon you will meet a theory monster that just bolks out the first 20 moves in .1 seconds, etc whatever.. but that can happen in literally every opening.
At least in the Open Games you can be sure that your position is fundamentally sound, that "the solution" will probably be some kind of natural move, and that if you find the correct answer to the White weirdness, you will likely end up not just equal but even better! 
By contrast, eg against the CaroKann I play the Advance variation with 4.h4. If Black doesn't know this, he just loses. If he does know it, it's still a good opening where I am fighting for an advantage in critical lines..

If you forget a move in the Giuoco Piano, you can play ..a6, or ..h6, or ..d6, or castle, or ..Be6, or remaneuver the Knight from c6, or ..Re8, or ..Kh8, or one of five billion other natural moves. You will probably not find the right answer to whatever critical line your opponent may uncork (ha-ha, that already doesn't really happen), but it will be vaguely playable.
If you forget a move in the Austrian, you can just resign. White will steamroll you, goodnight.

Related: From my personal experience, almost nobody plays 1. ..e5 in the 1700-2200 range. It's like 50% Sicilians, 20% Caro/French, 20% "personal unique whatever" lines like Alekhine, and then 10% 1. ..e5 out of which the majority again chooses Petroff/Philidor/etc .. which in turn means that White players aren't really well versed in their 1.e4 e5 repertoires either. 
Of course, depending on your scene, that may differ. Over here, I've played 1.e4 seriously again for ~2 years, and in ~100 games total (so roughly 50 White games) I managed to get 2 Ruy Lopezes on the board, one where Black went for that Norwegian(?) thing with a super early ..Na5, and one where my opponent mucked up the moveorder rightaway (going ..b5 prior to ..Be7). 
If someone played a halfway mainline Breyer or such against me, I'd just be out of book after h3, as I've never seen any need to learn it whatsoever. Most people avoid mainlines like the plague.

Bottom line is, "amount of theory" only matters when your opponent knows it. And from my own experience, people generally don't know jack, so you don't have to know a whole lot to be able to handle them either..
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #7 - 08/14/18 at 21:21:32
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TD wrote on 08/14/18 at 16:39:15:
I was thinking of the Closed Ruy Lopez.

Well, that practically defines the term "slow build up", so your first probelm with 1...e5 is solved. The second one should be solved too: play the Italian proper (the Giuoco Pianissimo or Modern System with c3 and d3 also practically defines "slow build up") and decline the Evans Gambit - it's not that bad at all.
Against the Scottish Game you might take a look at 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 Bc5.
So the annoying amateur stuff remains.

Against the Bishop's Game/Vienna 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 there is Steinitz' Na5.
You want to annoy fans of the Danish/Göring Gambit? Play 3...d3 and 4...d3. It's not optimal, but it's decent and you won't get mated anytime soon. After eg 3...d3 4.Bxd3 d6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.O-O Nf6 7.h3 g6 8.Nd4 Bg7 9.f4 O-O both players are practically on their own. If you enjoy playing against an IQP you should consider 3...Ne7 and 4...Nge7 respcetively, intending ...d5 and taking back with the knight.
Against the KG I suppose you'd rather avoid both the irrational ...g5 stuff and the ruined pawn structure 2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 4.Nf3 Nf6. So 3.Nf3 Ne7 (intending ...d5 again - it does surprisingly well) and 3.Bc4 Ne7 might be worth considering, though 4.Bc4/Nf3 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 immediately transposes to a main line of the Modern Defense (with that ruined pawn structure again). Perhaps Keene's Defense 2...Qh4+ 3.g3 Qe7 is something for you? 4.fxe5 d6 5.exd6 Qxe4+ results in a quite normal position.
That leaves us with the good old Greco-Möller 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 (which is why the Closed Italian wouldn't make much sense) and I opine that d6 is much better than its reputation: 6.cxd4 Bb6 7.O-O (7.Nc3 Nf6 8.Be3 O-O 9.Be3 Bg4 10.Qd3 Qe7) Nf6
a)8.h3 Nxe4 (O-O 9.Nc3 Nxe4 10.Nxe4 d5 11.Bg5 is inconvenient) 9.Re1 O-O (safey first) 10.Rxe4 d5 11.Bg5 f6!
b)8.Nc3 O-O 9.Re1 Bg4
c)8.Bb3 O-O 9.Nc3 Bg4 10.Be3 Qc8 11.Re1 (11.Kh1 Re8) Bxf3 12.gxf3 Qh3

So yes, I'd think it would be worth the effort for you. Just pick and study your variations carefully. Once in a while you will get blown away, but more often you will annoy and nicely outplay White.

PS iso the Closed Ruy Lopez I've always thought the Neo-Steinitz 3...a6 4.Ba4 Nge7 and 5...d6 worth a try: 5.c3 (5.Nc3 d6 6.d4 b5) d6 6.d4 Bd7
a)7.Bb3 h6 8.Nbd2 Ng6 9.Nc4 Be7 and 10...Bg5.
b)7.O-O Ng6 8.Re1 (8.Be3 Be7 9.Nbd2 h6) Be7 9.Nbd2 h6.
This isn't exactly a burden for your memory.
« Last Edit: 08/14/18 at 22:39:47 by MNb »  

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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #6 - 08/14/18 at 20:58:18
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Having never been 61, I am not in a position where I can give advice on how your age should affect your opening choices.

However, you clearly are interested in the open games. Isn't that reason enough to learn them?

I don't believe I would ever discourage anyone from taking up the open games as black. Apart from general chess education, it would also make following top level chess more enjoyable.
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #5 - 08/14/18 at 18:09:19
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/14/18 at 16:47:36:
Ahem, the amount of theory in the open games IS enormous, and to have any success you need to know your share.


You have to know at least one defence to attempts to blow you off the board, but antidotes to the crude attacks were discovered and documented many years ago. More insidious are systems with c3 and d3 or just d3. Top GMs are still feeling their way through these, so much is still possible without knowing lots of exact theory. Sometimes when I see the positions they reach, I'm reminded of what I used to see in school matches 50 years ago. Thus after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. d3 d6 5. Nc3 Nf6 (or transpositions) what is the best next move?
  
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TD
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #4 - 08/14/18 at 16:52:37
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/14/18 at 16:47:36:
My recommendation is to pay attention to what your likely opponents play as white (e.g., maybe you notice they play the Vienna Game or some such), and prepare specifically against just a few of those lines as black. Stick with the Scandinavian in the usual case, but in a special situation you can wheel out your 1.e4 e5 preparation. About the only thing that can (and will) go wrong is when they get suspicious and play a different opening altogether. You will wind up on totally unexpected ground, but at least they will wind up on slightly less familiar ground than their usual stuff. If it works out, over time you can expand your preparation and correspondingly your proportion of 1...e5.

I was thinking of doing just that at my local club! I already know of one King's Gambit player… Smiley
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #3 - 08/14/18 at 16:47:36
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IsaVulpes wrote on 08/14/18 at 15:57:55:
The amount of theory isn't really enormous, because most moves are natural ones, so even if you forget something, you can make do.
Ahem, the amount of theory in the open games IS enormous, and to have any success you need to know your share. Problem #1 with making natural moves is that you are likely to still be IN theory, so if your opponent knows any of it then you will be behind on the clock. Problem #2 with making natural moves is that a rather large fraction of them just lead to a clear disadvantage for black, and to avoid that fate you are right back in problem #1. I have played mainly 1.e4 e5 as black for a long time, with great success. Even so, every once in a while I still run afoul of some rinky-dink sideline that my opponent knows backwards and forwards, while I have to solve the problems at the board. It's not easy.

My recommendation is to pay attention to what your likely opponents play as white (e.g., maybe you notice they play the Vienna Game or some such), and prepare specifically against just a few of those lines as black. Stick with the Scandinavian in the usual case, but in a special situation you can wheel out your 1.e4 e5 preparation. About the only thing that can (and will) go wrong is when they get suspicious and play a different opening altogether. You will wind up on totally unexpected ground, but at least they will wind up on slightly less familiar ground than their usual stuff. If it works out, over time you can expand your preparation and correspondingly your proportion of 1...e5.
  
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TD
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #2 - 08/14/18 at 16:39:15
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IsaVulpes wrote on 08/14/18 at 15:57:55:
It's true that there are Marshall mainlines that go 30 moves deep, but for one you can play the Berlin instead, for two your opponent won't know those 30 moves either so it doesn't matter much, and for three any kind of normal attacking move in the Marshall will likely be a decent one.

I was thinking of the Closed Ruy Lopez. I already bought Marin's QC books and ordered "Play the Open Games As Black" from Emms and was thinking of buying "The Ruy Lopez: A Guide for Black" from Johnsen & Johannessen.

IsaVulpes wrote on 08/14/18 at 15:57:55:
I don't believe the majority of the Open Games to be more tactical in nature than the Dragon, several lines in the Caro (eg Panov), or pretty much the entire Pirc/Modern complex (the Austrian certainly leads to more irrational games than the Italian..)

I forgot to mention that I played the Dragon in the first years of my "carriere" and play more "slowly" in the last years. I mostly used the Modern move-order to dodge the Austrian.
  
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Re: To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
Reply #1 - 08/14/18 at 15:57:55
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Do whatever you have fun with. You aren't playing to earn your livelihood, so it will be worth the effort if it makes the game of chess more interesting to you.

The amount of theory isn't really enormous, because most moves are natural ones, so even if you forget something, you can make do. 
It's true that there are Marshall mainlines that go 30 moves deep, but for one you can play the Berlin instead, for two your opponent won't know those 30 moves either so it doesn't matter much, and for three any kind of normal attacking move in the Marshall will likely be a decent one.

I don't believe the majority of the Open Games to be more tactical in nature than the Dragon, several lines in the Caro (eg Panov), or pretty much the entire Pirc/Modern complex (the Austrian certainly leads to more irrational games than the Italian..)

Get Lokander's Open Games with Black; it's super digestible, a mangeable amount of work,  theoretically sound, and overall one of my favourite chess books of all time.
It lacks the Ruy, but barely anyone plays that at our level, and you can always find a source for it someplace else once you have decided what kind of variation you even want to play against it.
  
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To "old" to learn the Open Games with Black?
08/14/18 at 15:37:37
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Hello, I am a 61 year old player, rated 1900+ national and 2000+ FIDE. For about 30+ years I have played the Sicilian (Dragon) with Black, than about 15 years the Caro-Kann and now about 3 years the Scandinavian and in between some Pirc / Modern's. As a beginner I never properly learned 1.e4 with White and certainly not 1.e4 e5 with Black. I feel like I missed something in my chess education and was thinking of taking up 1.e4 e5 with Black. But I am a bit put off by the enormous amount of theory and the more tactical nature of the open games. I am more inclined to a slow built up in the opening. Also my energy, memory and concentration are (a bit) less than when I was younger. What do you think, is it worth the effort or am I better off with my current repertoire (mostly Scandinavian), also considering that I am not that young anymore?
  
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