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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Too many elites only tournaments (Read 21902 times)
Nickajack
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #37 - 06/26/19 at 21:09:35
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 06/23/19 at 06:46:51:
That is disturbing that 76% of Norway Chess games this year were all draws.

He mentions the fact that elite events are smaller pool of players and they know each other too well. To me only solution is to increase the pool of players. Making them play opens would help a lot.

But it is not politically correct (¿) to say it, but honestly, based on their games, some players simply often have no balls to stop playing too safe with White and only with aim of drawing as Black. That problem looks to me much harder to solve if some still stubborn to have this mindset no matter what game they play.



I agree. FIDE could step in and mandate participation in opens as a prerequisite for Candidates and WC eligibility. This is one of the ways a strong federation can make itself useful.
  

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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #36 - 06/23/19 at 06:46:51
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That is disturbing that 76% of Norway Chess games this year were all draws.

He mentions the fact that elite events are smaller pool of players and they know each other too well. To me only solution is to increase the pool of players. Making them play opens would help a lot.

But it is not politically correct (¿) to say it, but honestly, based on their games, some players simply often have no balls to stop playing too safe with White and only with aim of drawing as Black. That problem looks to me much harder to solve if some still stubborn to have this mindset no matter what game they play.
  
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Nickajack
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #35 - 06/23/19 at 02:24:03
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https://en.chessbase.com/post/proposing-a-new-system-for-top-tournaments

A new article at Chessbase proposing ways to reduce draws.
  

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tony37
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #34 - 05/06/19 at 09:50:17
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 05/06/19 at 03:37:40:
But I would like to see those times when elite GM plays Najdorf against some 2300 since everyone has to try win with Black. 2300 plays 6. Ag5 and goes into a crazy battle, can the 2800 really handle this crazy position game after game, regardless rating of opponent ¿

Do you really think the 2700 player would allow these positions, where indeed he might just lose? Can you give examples of this thing happening?
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #33 - 05/06/19 at 03:37:40
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When it is talked of "best vs best", it is not always that highest rated wins and destroys all the lower rated. Put a 2800 in an open where the field is mostly 2100-2700. 

Guaranteed that a few games they can destroy some 2300 or 2400s. Statistically is most of time, but you can be surprised how often a 2400 or even 2100 can cause big problems and draw against elite GM. Elite GM simply nowadays are not accustomed to strategy to opens because of their closed round-robin mentalities. 

The very few of under 2500 who are stupid enough to try a draw from move 1 against an elite GM will usually fail. But I would like to see those times when elite GM plays Najdorf against some 2300 since everyone has to try win with Black. 2300 plays 6. Ag5 and goes into a crazy battle, can the 2800 really handle this crazy position game after game, regardless rating of opponent ¿
  
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Nickajack
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #32 - 05/05/19 at 23:48:10
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 04/30/19 at 23:13:08:
Dink Heckler wrote on 04/30/19 at 23:06:24:
LeeRoth wrote on 04/30/19 at 04:32:06:
I want to see the best play the best.


So, just computer games, then?


Honestly, that would just be another elite GM game following opening preparation conconted by their seconds and 16 GB RAM laptops   Cheesy


The best players tend to cancel each other out, especially at classical time controls. Not that I mind seeing best vs best match-ups, but we must objectively recognize the fact that far more draws occur at this level. Yes, not all draws are boring, but the fact remains. Perhaps more elite rapid events could help here.

OTOH, best vs lesser player encounters produce more decisive and instructive games for both spectators and students of the game. This is hard to ignore, imo.

We should expect/demand more of FIDE to help bring about the type of events we want to see.
  

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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #31 - 04/30/19 at 23:13:08
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Dink Heckler wrote on 04/30/19 at 23:06:24:
LeeRoth wrote on 04/30/19 at 04:32:06:
I want to see the best play the best.


So, just computer games, then?


Honestly, that would just be another elite GM game following opening preparation conconted by their seconds and 16 GB RAM laptops   Cheesy
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #30 - 04/30/19 at 23:06:24
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LeeRoth wrote on 04/30/19 at 04:32:06:
I want to see the best play the best.


So, just computer games, then?
  

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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #29 - 04/30/19 at 04:45:19
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I wonder what the average 2200 rather see, Reykjavík Open or Gibraltar Open with 2600+ GMs or closed round-robin with 2700+ ¿

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/409556749?t=02h03m48s

LeeRoth wrote on 04/30/19 at 04:32:06:
I want to see the best play the best.  I don’t want to see 2700s crushing lower-rated players in Open tournaments.


By the way, 

http://chess-results.com/tnr202897.aspx?lan=1&art=4&wi=821&zeilen=99999

No. 41 was not exactly crushing the lower rateds Cheesy
  
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #28 - 04/30/19 at 04:32:06
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I want to see the best play the best.  I don’t want to see 2700s crushing lower-rated players in Open tournaments.
  
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #27 - 04/30/19 at 03:56:26
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Nickajack wrote on 04/30/19 at 02:26:49:
It doesn't look to me like this thread is either about banning elite-only tournaments or having only 'Swiss' opens. ...

Yes, you are right. I did get that impression, but looking back on the posts it was just my failure at reading comprehension.
  
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #26 - 04/30/19 at 02:26:49
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It doesn't look to me like this thread is either about banning elite-only tournaments or having only 'Swiss' opens. Rather, there is an interest that some of us have expressed in having Elite players being tested in an open 'pool' type of tournaments, which Opens are generally all about.

This would be expected to produce more decisive results, a need to win with Black (mainly vs lower rated players), and probably more accurate ratings overall.
  

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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #25 - 04/28/19 at 21:37:59
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 04/28/19 at 21:24:17:
What about the craziness that Jobawa and Grandelius play ¿ How can they maintain 2700+ yet play what most elite GMs would consider as horrible openings ¿

Maybe because they can't (and Grandelius has never been there, yet)
I'm astonished Jobava fell out of the top 100, I too think that's sad
  
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #24 - 04/28/19 at 21:24:17
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"Correct" openings are what elite GMs like to say to justify playing them. If 1...e5 and QGD are only correct, there would not be all these Grandmaster Repertoire on Pirc Defence or Modern Benoni  Cheesy

What about the craziness that Jobawa and Grandelius play ¿ How can they maintain 2700+ yet play what most elite GMs would consider as horrible openings ¿ 

Honestly if a lower rated wants to draw with White all the time they play higher rated, e.g. 2300 playing 2700+ GM, then criticism is deserved on their side too. A lower rated who does that is 1) cobard and 2) is actively harming themselves trying to hold a position where higher rated can simply outplay them both on mindset and on board. 

Try playing Exchange against Paco Vallejo's French Defence, or symmetrical line against Caruana's Petrov Defence. I guarantee that it would be endless mental suffering trying to get a draw the entire game. I think anyone who has tried grovelling for draw against elite GM will find that it backfired horrendously. If 2700+ cannot beat 2300 who tries to draws with them all the times, then honestly how did they get to 2700 ¿¡ And how did the 2300 get to 2300 with such a terrible tournament strategy ¿¡ Cheesy 

I think that telling elite GMs that they have to play Reykjavík Open or Gibraltar Open, or any other big opens to get recognition as others said above is good step. If they are that good they have to play with everyone.
  
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Re: Too many elites only tournaments
Reply #23 - 04/27/19 at 06:10:10
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Okay I want to make three counter-points about elites only tournaments.

1. Playing solidly with black (e.g Berlin Wall, QGD) is otherwise known as playing CORRECT chess. The elites don't play solidly because they are afraid, nor because they only want to draw. They play solidly because they know things frequently heat up anyway. It brings to mind some dialogue from Lethal Weapon...
  • Murtaugh: Why you gotta make things so complicated?
  • Riggs: I don't make things complicated. That's the way they get, all by themselves.

2. If elites playing to "win with white, draw with black" is somehow objectionable, how can the solution be to have them play lower rateds, where the lower rateds (most of them) will openly be playing to DRAW WITH WHITE ?

3. The big-money tournaments aren't organized as elites only because that's what YOU want (rather obviously you don't), it's because that's what the SPONSORS want. If you somehow "enforce" a "ban" on elites only tournaments, that sponsorship won't magically transfer to open tournaments. To my ear, "too many elites only tournaments" sounds no different than "too many tournaments".
  
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