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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing the Petroff by Dhopade (Read 57702 times)
MW
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #47 - 07/17/20 at 23:16:04
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Thanks tracke, really appreciate your time and detailed response. I ordered directly from QC and it is on the way so I'm hoping my wait won't be too long.

The author is not a known Petroff player so its probably not surprising that it is well analysed but the supporting commentary is a little thin. I've played the Petroff on and off since I was 17 which I'm sad to say is 50 odd years ago. Back then the 6...Bd6 line was all the rage so coupled with my French (exchange) experience I'm not too worried about the lack of explanations or a second option as I have a pretty good understanding of the positions arising from these variations. 

However, Chapter 12 and the choice of 10....c5 does surprise me a little as it seems to be a fairly recent try and it looks a little suspicious, to me anyway. I certainly would have liked an alternative here although having purchased most books written on the Pertoff's over the last 50 odd years plus the Chessable course I do have options if needed.

I see the index summary provided by QC only seems to offer 11 Kb1 or 11 Rhe1 but there are other options such as 11 h4, 11 c4, and 11 Bg5 so just wondering whether there is any coverage of these either directly or through transposition?   

Once again many thanks for all your help.
  
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tracke
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #46 - 07/17/20 at 21:38:58
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My little and long awaited February-to-July-Chess-Things-Parcel arrived this morning with NiCs, Infs, CBMs, Kotronias, Hausrath, Burgess, Pavlovic, Odessky, Sedlak and more  Cheesy
After two hours of intensive glancing at S. Dophade now only some remarks, the other books are waiting ...

This Petroff book is definitely a good one! Probably a very good one!? Certainly a must buy for any Petroff player ~1800-2400 !
It‘s very analytical with many little improvements and a lot of new (and seemingly good and useful) ideas. Since 2017 I‘ve followed Petroff theory very closely and even 
played it in corr master class (drawing all games), regarding correctness of analysis I don’t see any problem.
Complains could start about the narrow repertoire, almost always only one black option. And most often you don‘t get to know if the recommend move ist the only one (and the last but sufficent black try) or if Dophades choice is an interesting and unclear try while three other solid equalizers exist. Sometimes many Petroff players would prefer other continuations of equal value. Often there’s no tendency to avoid dead positions or forced draws. And then, next subvariation, the author has a spicy idea in a well-known boring position. Not much strategical explanations, the evaluations at the end of the variations may be difficult to grasp for club players!? It‘s sometimes debatable if an 2000 or 1800 player could „understand“ a given variation. Or memorize a complicated one. It‘s difficult to decide if this book can be used as first introduction or as a stand-alone source for a Petroff newbie!? Or if it‘s just a necessary update?
I wouldn’t call these points disadvantages, probably it‘s just the trade mark of Qualitys Playing-the-series. The author got the task to write a concrete and correct and narrow black rep in the Petroff according to certain criteria given by the QC team, and with this his first book he fullfilled this task perfectly well, to 100 or even 110%!!
If you rate this book with 3,5 or 4 or 4,5 or 5 stars (out of 5), mainly depends on your playing strengh, your preferred working style, the role of the Petroff in your anti-e4-rep, your existing knowledge of the Petroff and so on. 
Anyway, given the huge amount of analytical input any black Petroff player >1800 will need this book!

tracke  Smiley

PS: As long as I‘m not occupied with the other books, I of course can answer some general or detailed questions concerning variations. As usual no endless detailed questions, as the publishers and authors deserves the copies to be bought! (Maybe this time some extra questions to the end of world?  Wink  )
  
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MW
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #45 - 07/16/20 at 19:39:32
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With this book now starting to hit the shelves I would be interested in hearing anyone's first impressions?

I pre-ordered my copy a few weeks back, but with living down under and COVID considerably slowing the mail to these parts it could be a couple more weeks before I receive it.

Thanks
  
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doefmat
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #44 - 06/01/20 at 14:56:27
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15th of july release date
  

Chesspub; where people devote their whole life to find novelties on move 26 just to blunder on move 27
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #43 - 04/22/20 at 08:01:18
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doefmat wrote on 04/22/20 at 07:57:33:
You can try caissabase. It's currently 4.02 million games, updated every few months with TWIC games. And it's free. 
                   

Thanks for this! I think I noticed it in the past and was put off by it being SCID, but I've just seen that you can export the games to ChessBase anyway ...
  
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #42 - 04/22/20 at 07:57:33
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You can try caissabase. It's currently 4.02 million games, updated every few months with TWIC games. And it's free.
  

Chesspub; where people devote their whole life to find novelties on move 26 just to blunder on move 27
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #41 - 04/22/20 at 07:46:50
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MNb wrote on 04/21/20 at 20:53:20:
Michael Ayton wrote yesterday at 18:31:
I have only an ancient version of ChessBase (and at the moment not even that, but only ChessBase Reader 2017 as I'm away from home for a while ...) 

So do I, added with updates lfrom sources ike TWIC. So I recommend  to check my results with your own database; if the results are about the same it's likely that they are reliable.

H'mm, how accurate a picture can an examination of the latest TWIC(s) supplemented by one's own database give, I wonder, of the latest stats for an opening? Maybe it's the best one can get? Anyone?
  
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MNb
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #40 - 04/21/20 at 20:53:20
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/21/20 at 17:31:03:
I have only an ancient version of ChessBase (and at the moment not even that, but only ChessBase Reader 2017 as I'm away from home for a while ...)

So do I, added with updates lfrom sources ike TWIC. So I recommend  to check my results with your own database; if the results are about the same it's likely that they are reliable.

TopNotch wrote on 04/21/20 at 19:40:14:
Strangely enough I have noticed that the simple 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 tends to annoy many amateur Petroff players,

Out of comfort zone, I suppose. It's a good reason to buy Khalifman's/Soloviov's book, even if the Ruy Lopez is your main weapon; it allows White to avoid the dreaded Berlin Wall too.
Off topic: I find it funny that the subtitble is "a solid strategic approach" with the aim of "squeezing 1.e4 e5" while quite often play gets very tactical. Of course I realize this is a false dilemma.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TopNotch
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #39 - 04/21/20 at 19:40:14
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MartinC wrote on 04/21/20 at 08:46:55:
Definitely agree about the 5 Nc3 endings.

I can still remember being amazed to see that white could hope to squeeze some of those.

Exactly.

MNb wrote on 04/21/20 at 11:29:47:
Has a remedy been found against that piece sac line with 9...Bxa2 ? Were I to pick up the Petrov it definitely would be my first option to consider.

I never found a clear refutation, the engine tends to like White by a lot but it remains a mess and I wouldn't want it in an otb game.

Strangely enough I have noticed that the simple 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 tends to annoy many amateur Petroff players, as often for some reason they don't want to transpose back into the Four Knights with 3...Nc6 preferring instead the weaker 3...Bb4. What does Dhopade propose against 3.Nc3.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #38 - 04/21/20 at 17:31:03
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MNb wrote on 04/20/20 at 21:07:36:
The percentagaes I gave remain what they are. Fun fact: on the same level (ELO from 1000 - 2000) Black wins 38% of the games in the French Exchange.

What database(s) are you using to generate this and other sterling info, MNb? Is it the database you get with/in ChessBase if you pay for it? You'll have to forgive my dimwittedness here -- I have only an ancient version of ChessBase (and at the moment not even that, but only ChessBase Reader 2017 as I'm away from home for a while ...)
  
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MNb
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #37 - 04/21/20 at 11:29:47
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Has a remedy been found against that piece sac line with 9...Bxa2 ? Were I to pick up the Petrov it definitely would be my first option to consider.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #36 - 04/21/20 at 08:46:55
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Definitely agree about the 5 Nc3 endings.

I can still remember being amazed to see that white could hope to squeeze some of those.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #35 - 04/20/20 at 21:26:16
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LeeRoth wrote on 04/20/20 at 14:16:31:
Every time we have a discussion over whether openings are good or bad for amateurs, I think of the following:  "At amateur level, all the main openings are good, as long as you get your pieces out."  Forget where I heard this or which GM said it, but the Petroff clearly makes the cut.  After all, there can't be too much wrong with the open piece place, sound structure, etc., which characterize the old main lines.  At amateur levels, if you get the pieces out and start fighting, good things tend to happen.  

That said, I'm not sure how often Black actually gets to see the old main lines.  When you get to levels where people are reading repertoire books, I imagine that Black will see 5.Nc3 most often.  That Carlsen-Caruana game was terrifying, and, at amateur level, the 5.Nc3 line seems to give White hackers exactly what they want -- a chance to castle long and fling pawns mindlessly at the enemy king.  It takes a certain kind of Black player to be willing to play into this on a regular basis.  If it doesn't bother you, then godspeed.

This analogy may not completely work, but to me, the Petroff seems a lot like the French.  People are attracted to the main lines -- the old main lines of the Petroff and the Winawer or the McCutcheon in the French -- but can't get them on the board as often as they like.  The alternatives are not "antis" that leave White worse than the main lines, but dangerous systems in and of themselves (such as the Tarrasch or the Steinitz), and, in addition, there is a "drawing" line that can be annoying.  Yet, there are people who love the French, so why not the Petroff too?        


That 5.Nc3 line has been hyped a lot but below Master level I think white has more interesting choices. The thing is against 5.Nc3 Black doesn't have to go kingside, he can meet 0-0-0 plans with 0-0-0 and 0-0 plans with 0-0 the so called mirror strategy and those positions require a lot of skill to get more than a half point as White. Amateurs tend to get all caught up in regurgitating the trends of elite players, but when choosing suitable opening lines for the level opposition one will likely face, it is often necessary to cast your net wider. 

Finding sound lines that are psychologically unpleasant for the opponent is a useful skill to have, and Petroff players on the low end of the spectrum are usually looking for a simple game, trade a few pieces, head for an ending and see what turns up. To avoid the previously mentioned scenario, White often loses his mind trying to generate something, black then collects the point and goes away thinking isn't the Petroff grand.

Clearly facing the Petroff requires a lot of thought beforehand if you want to confidently fight for the win instead of having to give up an easy half point, therefore you need something in your pocket against it, as trying to wing it at the Board is likely to backfire badly. So lets do our facing Petroff checklist:

1) Aim for asymmetrical structure - check 
2) Avoid unnecessary exchanges - check
3) Opposite side castling if possible - check
4) IQP positions should not be feared - check
5) Be patient, Rome wasn't built in a day - check
6) If all else fails do not self destruct, allow the half point - check Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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MNb
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #34 - 04/20/20 at 21:07:36
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Again, if an amateur loves the Petrov so much that he/she thinks he/she's an exception, by all means play it. The percentagaes I gave remain what they are. Fun fact: on the same level (ELO from 1000 - 2000) Black wins 38% of the games in the French Exchange. Do with it what you want.
Btw I don't think the French and the Alekhine are particularly good defenses for many amateurs. TopNotch claimed that they display FIghting Spirit and that's not entirely the same.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade
Reply #33 - 04/20/20 at 14:16:31
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Every time we have a discussion over whether openings are good or bad for amateurs, I think of the following:  "At amateur level, all the main openings are good, as long as you get your pieces out."  Forget where I heard this or which GM said it, but the Petroff clearly makes the cut.  After all, there can't be too much wrong with the open piece place, sound structure, etc., which characterize the old main lines.  At amateur levels, if you get the pieces out and start fighting, good things tend to happen.   

That said, I'm not sure how often Black actually gets to see the old main lines.  When you get to levels where people are reading repertoire books, I imagine that Black will see 5.Nc3 most often.  That Carlsen-Caruana game was terrifying, and, at amateur level, the 5.Nc3 line seems to give White hackers exactly what they want -- a chance to castle long and fling pawns mindlessly at the enemy king.  It takes a certain kind of Black player to be willing to play into this on a regular basis.  If it doesn't bother you, then godspeed.

This analogy may not completely work, but to me, the Petroff seems a lot like the French.  People are attracted to the main lines -- the old main lines of the Petroff and the Winawer or the McCutcheon in the French -- but can't get them on the board as often as they like.  The alternatives are not "antis" that leave White worse than the main lines, but dangerous systems in and of themselves (such as the Tarrasch or the Steinitz), and, in addition, there is a "drawing" line that can be annoying.  Yet, there are people who love the French, so why not the Petroff too?   


      
             



   





  
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