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Playing the Petroff by Dhopade (Read 57710 times)

MW Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 274 Joined: 04/20/18 Gender:	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #62 - 07/24/20 at 03:57:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	TNich wrote on 07/24/20 at 01:36:42: Cohen simply does not cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3. Bc4. Cohen does mention it note (B) at the bottom of page 61


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #61 - 07/24/20 at 02:23:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	For the record it was also addressed in a Petroff-advocacy book from the 1960s, David Hooper's A Complete Defence to 1. P-K4. (He thought that after 3...Nxe4, 4. Qe2 is "objectively best, but futureless," and had the ostensible best-play lines as leading to equality.)


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TNich Junior Member Offline Posts: 75 Location: Lansing, MI Joined: 04/19/08 Gender:	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #60 - 07/24/20 at 01:36:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Cohen simply does not cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3. Bc4. The move order he uses for the bishop opening is 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 and after 2.Nf6 he doesn't mention 3.Nf3 at all. Instead, He offers 3.d4 and 3.d3. Curiously, The Bishop's Opening is not well covered in Petroff repertoire books. Lakdawala in both 'The Petroff: Move by Move' and 'Opening Repertoire: The Petroff' fails to cover the position after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4. Other books not covering the position are: The Petroff: an Expert Repertoire for Black - Sakaev. Petroff Defence - Raetsky & Chetverik Petroff's Defence - Fornitos & Haag So kudos to the following authors who do cover it: The Petroff Defence - Yusupov The Petroff - Janjgava


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an ordinary chessplayer God Member Offline I used to be not bad. Posts: 1823 Location: Columbus, OH (USA) Joined: 01/02/15	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #59 - 07/24/20 at 01:09:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks, but black played 3...Nxe4, so 5.exd5 is out of the question. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 (or 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3) 2...Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4 4.Nxe5, 4...d5, is it?


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whatteaux Junior Member Offline Posts: 80 Location: Sydney, Oz Joined: 03/22/10	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #58 - 07/23/20 at 23:46:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/23/20 at 22:55:23: What move does Cohen give on black's fourth? Cohen recommends 4...d5 5.exd5 Bb4+


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an ordinary chessplayer God Member Offline I used to be not bad. Posts: 1823 Location: Columbus, OH (USA) Joined: 01/02/15	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #57 - 07/23/20 at 22:55:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	MW wrote on 07/23/20 at 00:53:23: Chapter 1 is a bit disappointing because it's on the thin side. At my level 3.Bc4?! is almost a mainline and after 3...Nxe4 the most played line is 4.Nxe5. I know black should be happy here but there are some moves that can be tricky. Cohen did cover a lot more here, Dhopade doesn't even mention 4.Nxe5. Surprisingly tricky! 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4 Harding says 4.Nxe5? loses a pawn for nothing after 4...Qe7!. Part of his analysis (not the pawn-winning part) quotes Jaenisch: 5.d4 d6 6.Bxf7+ Kd8 7.O-O dxe5 8.dxe5+ Bd7 9.Bd5 Nc5 -+ "for if 10.b4 c6 or if 10.f4 Kc8 - Jaenisch". -- Harding (1973) Bishop's Opening, page 32 Deep Shredder actually thinks 5.Bxf7+ Kd8 6.d4 d6 7.O-O dxe5 8.dxe5+ Bd7 9.Bd5 Nc5 represents best play from 4...Qe7 (good job Jaenisch!), but overturns the evaluation with 10.e6 c6 11.exd7 cxd5 12.Nc3 Qxd7 13.Nxd5 and white is a hair worse than equal. There is also 10.e6 c6 11.Bc4 b5 12.exd7 bxc4 13.Re1 Qxd7 14.Qh5 and this time white is a hair better than equal. Since white has only one pawn for the knight, I conclude black's game is not easy! We can hardly fault Jaenisch for thinking black was winning. He never had to face an engine! Deep Shredder thinks 4...d5 is best, when Harding gives 5.Qe2!= (transposing to 4.Qe2 d5 5.Nxe5), backed up by a fair amount of analysis. What move does Cohen give on black's fourth?


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TNich Junior Member Offline Posts: 75 Location: Lansing, MI Joined: 04/19/08 Gender:	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #56 - 07/23/20 at 14:14:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dhopade recommends the 6...Bd6 line. His mainline being 7.0-0 0-0 8.c4 c6.


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ReneDescartes God Member Offline Qu'est-ce donc que je suis? Une chose qui pense. Posts: 1240 Joined: 05/17/10 Gender:	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #55 - 07/23/20 at 12:39:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Somehow I trust a guy like Cohen, who has vast experience with and love for the Petroff, over a super-talented youngster exploring the opening with a database and computer. I have Cohen; if anyone has both books, I'd love to know where the newer book deviates from Cohen's absolute main line in the 3...Nxe5 complex (his Chapter 20, part 3).


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MW Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 274 Joined: 04/20/18 Gender:	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #54 - 07/23/20 at 00:53:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Chapter 1 is a bit disappointing because it's on the thin side. At my level 3.Bc4?! is almost a mainline and after 3...Nxe4 the most played line is 4.Nxe5. I know black should be happy here but there are some moves that can be tricky. Cohen did cover a lot more here, Dhopade doesn't even mention 4.Nxe5. This move order isn't mention in several of the other books I have on the Petroff either....I did find a few games in my database where it has been played by 2000+ players but white's results are terrible. I had a look at Cohen's book and I think if you know his analysis you shouldn't have any trouble....black just gets a good game. All the best.


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doefmat Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 103 Joined: 04/03/17	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #53 - 07/22/20 at 17:44:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	I also received my copy today. Here are my first impressions from a lower rated perspective (disclaimer: I know I shouldn't study openings, but I like to have repertoire books as reference and find it fun). - Chapter 1 is a bit disappointing because it's on the thin side. At my level 3.Bc4?! is almost a mainline and after 3...Nxe4 the most played line is 4.Nxe5. I know black should be happy here but there are some moves that can be tricky. Cohen did cover a lot more here, Dhopade doesn't even mention 4.Nxe5. - In chapter 1 I also expected a bit more from The Russian Three Knights in a sense that 4.d3 and 4.Bc4 aren't covered and they are by far the mainline at my level. I must admit in the time that I played it online it got me some good and easy positions. 5.d3 and 5.Bc4 are briefly mentioned so maybe they often transpose. Except when white doesn't take on e5. - I'm quite happy with the 5.Qe2 chapter. I see this alot online and can have trouble with finding a plan. This chapter gave me some ideas to play with. For example I never even considered playing Na6 to c7 lol. This chapter is also more detailed than other resources on this line that start very early with ' and black is fine here'. - The traditional mainline looks quite the same as Sielecki's. I'm excited to try the short castling and c5 stuff from the modern mainline. - I like the proposed repertoire against the King's Gambit. I always played the Schallop Defense but the positions felt always felt pretty weird to me and hard to learn. This looks more straight forward.

	Chesspub; where people devote their whole life to find novelties on move 26 just to blunder on move 27
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MW Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 274 Joined: 04/20/18 Gender:	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #52 - 07/18/20 at 20:44:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thanks for all your help and input. Looking forward to receiving my copy and sounds like I'm going to enjoy working my way through the content. All the best.


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tracke Senior Member Offline Introite tam etiam ibi dei sunt Posts: 467 Location: Kiel (GER) Joined: 09/21/04 Gender:	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #51 - 07/18/20 at 08:53:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	@doefmat: Surely my English writing is often not precise enough - hopefully it is clear that my critique points are no complaints but should help to characterize the book! The quality team had an idea about how the book should be written and the author fullfilled that task very well or even better! But it‘s the right of all potential (but not mainly targeted ) consumers to know if the book is suitable for them ... And maybe QC (or other publishers) would sell 20% more books if they‘d changed their idea of an ideal chess book for 1% !? This book is a very good book! Probably even 1600 level Petroff players could and should buy it. But they should stick mainly to their Lakdawala book to „understand“ and use this one only as additional source?! tracke


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tracke Senior Member Offline Introite tam etiam ibi dei sunt Posts: 467 Location: Kiel (GER) Joined: 09/21/04 Gender:	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #50 - 07/18/20 at 08:04:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hallo MW, I‘m almost twenty years less wise than you and my interest for the Petroff only began with Kramnik‘s games (in general) and then again with the books from Sakaev and Cohen. Meanwhile I purchased back to the 1990s as many of these partly outdated books cover sidelines more completely and/or are still instructive (especially Yusupov with his >200 test positions). - Regarding Dophade’s coverage of the Modern Main Line with 10...c5 you cannot see from the abridged Variation index that Chapter 11 has 2 pages about 11.h3 &11.h4, 2 pages about 11.c4?! b5! and 3 pages about 11.Bg5 & conclusion. With 11.Bg5 being very sharp with a forced draw in long lines, maybe best but impractical ?! The 10...c5 fashion is understandable but my personal choice is the solid 10...Re8 (no special source, mainly corr games). It looks passive but has hold in otb and corr. Of course it‘s dead drawish, too, but there are not so many long forced variations and in the resulting rook endings with equal material it‘s possible to grind out ill-prepared weaker players, at least in rapid! Lately even Caruana has experimented with 10...Re8 though he lost rapid against Carlsen!? - Dophade‘s coverage of the Russian Three Knights (11 pages) looks promising. He concentrates on ...d6 structures (often with ...b6), gives clear strategic advice and seems to equalize completely against both Sielecki(2018) and Khalifman/Soloviov(2019)?! A bigger (practical) problem might be the topical endgame from Chapter 8 (10.Qb3 Qd7 11.Nc3 Nxc3 12.Bxf5 Qxf5 13.Qxb7 Qd7 14.Qxd7 Nxd7 15.c5! Bxh2+! etc.) which has vanished from elite play. I do not object to Dophade’s choice (Anand-Fedoseev, WaZ 2019, 21...Nd7=) or his evaluation and comments, but one page is really nothing to understand this difficult endgame! I played this endgame twice in corr (both 17...Rfc8 and 17...Rfe8) and was able to defend, but in ways I don’t want to repeat otb! Imo this equal/unclear endgame should have been treated on several pages (as the Panov endgame in the books from Aagaard and Schandorff!?). - Dophade’s choice to accept gambits like Göring and Danish doesn’t seem typical or practical for Petroff players?! Maybe I‘m crazy or too tired now, but I can‘t see any single word (or an obvious transposition) regarding 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4?! or 2.d4 exd4 3.Bc4?!, the Urusov doesn’t seem to exist for GMs? I understand that the „slighty less detailed section“ of non-2.Nf3 lines is just an extra to the Petroff coverage but one black move and a recommendation to look at Ntirlis/Khalifman/Lokander/... wouldn’t hurt. Coverage of Vienna and Bishop Game (with 3.d3) seems fine though I‘m waiting for the first volume of Italian Renaissance (august?) tracke


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doefmat Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 103 Joined: 04/03/17	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #49 - 07/18/20 at 07:15:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Funny that you guys mention the lack of comments. He said the following in an interview: "First, I myself tried to understand the opening as deeply as possible and tried to figure out which variations are challenging and what’s exactly trending. Then I picked up the lines which I felt will be relatively easier for the audience to learn, to follow, and to remember as well. Because I may give a thousand lines, but if the readers are unable to remember them comfortably, then it is basically of no use. Keeping that in mind, I tried to include lines where the reader will be able to remember stuff quite easily. But of course, there are some lines that contain a lot of dynamism. The moves are so concrete that if you forget a move, the position could become really messy. In such situations, I tried to put a lot of comments explaining the important moves that are somewhat difficult to remember and those that don’t come easily to our intuition. I tried to highlight the ideas as deeply as possible with the correct comments. If you remember the comments, then the chances of remembering the moves are also quite high. My main focus was on suggesting some good solid lines, but even in the lines which are a bit challenging and dynamic in nature, I added a lot of comments so that the readers could remember them for a long time." https://followchess.com/news/one-to-one-with-swapnil-dhopade-petroff-chess-coach... I'm also waiting for my pre-ordered copy. I always thought that pre-ordering had some benefit in getting the material early. But I noticed some of the local chess webshops (in the Netherlands) already have the book in stock. I'm very curious about the part where he suggests Bb4 instead of going for the Four Knights.

	Chesspub; where people devote their whole life to find novelties on move 26 just to blunder on move 27
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nestor Full Member Offline Posts: 144 Location: London Joined: 05/10/09 Gender:	Re: Playing the Petroff by Dhopade Reply #48 - 07/18/20 at 06:17:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Chapter 11 introduces 5.Nc3 and covers sidelines and deviations up to move 11, including your three and also 11.h3. I agree that a few strategically placed comments indicating playable alternatives would have been helpful, but overall this book looks like a fine piece of work.


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