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Paddy
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #16 - 06/11/20 at 19:39:20
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kylemeister wrote on 06/11/20 at 18:20:59:
Regarding that 8. cd against the Swiss/Henneberger -- one might think it looks like an unimpressive version of the Exchange, but it has been considered (in such books as ECO, NCO and Pachman's Das Damengambit) as leading to +=.


I suggest that the main "take-away" point is that the Carlsbad is a structure, one that can arise from different openings and different move-orders. But it is a structure that several generations of strong players have considered to be theoretically and practically favourable, if only slightly, to the side with the extra centre pawn.

I seriously doubt that there is much evidence that can be found that a significant switch to the Nimzo/QID complex happened following the Botvinnik-Keres game. The Indian defences were all very popular anyway post-1945. 

What did happen though was:

1) the move order 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 d5, already the preference of Capablanca in the 1930s, became a popular way of reaching a QGD while avoiding any Nge2 lines; the implied "threat" of course is that Black intends to answer 3 Nc3 with 3...Bb4; sometimes this is a bluff, sometimes not;

2) the so-called Alatortsev move order 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Be7 gradually became more popular, receiving its biggest boost when adopted by Petrosian in his successful World Championship match vs Botvinnik in 1963. This small move-order finesse effectively rules out the Botvinnik-Keres plan, at least in its standard form.
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #15 - 06/11/20 at 19:33:20
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ReneDescartes wrote on 06/11/20 at 17:29:32:
I still have the impression that people who went so far as to learn the Nimzo in order to avoid the Exchange only began to do so sometime after the introduction of the Botvinnik f3 plan. Not that the Exchange wasn't seen as a major main line--it's just that it didn't  terrorize anyone into deforming his repertoire the way the Ne2-f3 plan and the Huebner sometimes did in later decades.



Yes, I also think that avoiding the Nge2 line is a more recent phenomenon.  Probably didn't start until Kasparov started playing it.  But no one is terrified.  At least not today.  After all, it was just a few years ago that ..Nh5 was being touted as a clear equalizer.   

The current trend is to avoid the Nge2 exchange but that's because, even if Black can equalize, he comes under more pressure than he does in other lines.  As Gustaffson and others have explained, today's opening play is more about being comfortable.

            




  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #14 - 06/11/20 at 18:20:59
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Regarding that 8. cd against the Swiss/Henneberger -- one might think it looks like an unimpressive version of the Exchange, but it has been considered (in such books as ECO, NCO and Pachman's Das Damengambit) as leading to +=.
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #13 - 06/11/20 at 18:07:19
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ReneDescartes wrote on 06/10/20 at 22:16:03:
By 1926, even Tarrasch(!) used it to win a beautiful game against Gilg with ...b6, ...Bb7 ...Ne4, and ...f5 .

I meant to comment on your (!) earlier. Tarrasch was much less dogmatic over-the-board than in print, and could sometimes be found playing openings which he had publicly disparaged, e.g. the Scandinavian, Alekhine's Defense (that one really does deserve a !), Albin's Counter-Gambit, and fairly frequently the Orthodox QGD (almost 1/2 as often as his own Defense). I think he may have gotten a bit of a bad press from later generations. Certainly I have enjoyed every bit of his writing that I have come across, and his games are good, too.
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #12 - 06/11/20 at 17:29:32
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Paddy wrote on 06/11/20 at 12:54:10:
ReneDescartes wrote on 06/10/20 at 22:16:03:
I believe the typical Saemisch-type strategic approach of doubling the c-pawns, fighting against the weak front c-pawn and big center, was invented in the mid-19th century in England. Elijah Williams beat Staunton and others using it--though not with this exact move order.

The Nimzo move order proper was tried in 1883 by Blackburne  (his opponent played 5.Bd2, and he played ...b6 and ...d5), and then in 1914 by Alekhine (who played ...b6,...c5 and ...d5 against Rubinstein's 5.e3) and Nimzovitch (who played the typical dark-square strategy of ...c5, ...d6, and ...e5 against Janowski's 5.e3). It was not a way of avoiding a feared variation, but rather part of the general exploration, by both hypermoderns like Gruenfeld and others like Maroczy, of new ways to treat the center. Nimzovitch himself played it a lot from 1922 on, usually with ...b6 and Bb7. By 1926, even Tarrasch(!) used it to win a beautiful game against Gilg with ...b6, ...Bb7 ...Ne4, and ...f5 .

At that time the QGD Exchange variation, while not unknown, was not thought very frightening. Otherwise, Capa and Alekhine would have used the Exchange against each other at least once in their match, or else avoided 3.Nc3. The Exchange's reputation grew especially after Botvinnik-Keres, when Botvinnik produced the plan with f3 and Ne2, and again during the 1980s when Kasparov used it to defeat Anderson and others. Today I think it is not particularly feared. Of course, the Nimzo is much less constrained for both sides than the QGD Exchange--less technical, more unbalanced, and strategically richer. I think players avoid the 3.Nc3 QGD today, if they do, not so much out of fear as out of a desire for a different sort of game.

I myself play both the Nimzo and the QGD as Black, usually with the Nimzo order, but not always. By the way, if you want to know how to play against the Exchange, read Ntirlis' Classical Repertoire.


The first two paragraphs are more or less correct. The popularity of both the Nimzo-Indian and the Queen's Indian begins in the 1920s, based on the hypermodern idea that the centre can be controlled to a sufficient extent by piece pressure, keeping the centre pawns flexibly in reserve.

The Exchange variation of the Queen's Gambit was played many times before the First World War, including by very strong players such as Steinitz, Pillsbury and (especially) Marshall. It's rise in popularity with other top players is usually dated from the great Carlsbad tournament of 1923, where the exchange on d5 was used as a way of avoiding the so-called Swiss Defence with an early ...a6, intending the manoeuvre ...dxc4, ...b5, ...Bb7,...c5 - a sort of delayed Queen's Gambit Accepted. Since then many sources refer to the Exchange Variation as an example of the "Carlsbad structure", which also occurs for example (with reversed colours) in the Caro-Kann Exchange variation. Capablanca (among others) was a great early fan of the Carlsbad and he used it three times in his 1927 match vs Alekhine.

The Exchange variation was also used as a way of avoiding the Cambridge Springs.

Marshall continued to use the Exchange throughout the 1920s and it was soon taken up enthusiastically by younger masters such as Flohr and Reshevsky. At that time the two main plans for White were 
a) 0-0 and minority attack with b4-b5; 
b) 0-0-0 with kingside pawn storm. 
Both Nf3 and Nge2 were used with these plans.

As noted above, the rise of a third plan with Nge2, 0-0 and f3 dates from the well-known game Botvinnik-Keres, USSR ch 1952.

A useful source on the early history of several major openings (but not including the Nimzo- or Queen's Indian) is "Chess from Morphy to Botvinnik" (1951) by Imre König.

Perhaps I was misunderstood. With regard to my second paragraph, I don't believe we disagree; we just have emphasized different things. The OP asked whether the Nimzo move order evolved as a way of avoiding the QGD Exchange, and I responded that no, the latter was not seen as very frightening--meaning, I thought obviously in the context of the OP's question, not so frightening as to warrant avoiding 1...d5. Of course I knew it was a respected variation. Here is an old post of mine from another thread.

ReneDescartes wrote on 08/15/19 at 13:51:09:
Exchanging on d4, then posting a knight on e5, followed by f2-f4 and a kingside assault, is still known as the Pillsbury attack; his contemporaries referred to his victories in this line as "Pillsburials."

With regard to the Capablanca-Alekhine match, I checked it carefully before my post and stand by what I said  Yes, three games featured cxd5 ...exd5, but only at move eight, after Capa had played 7. Rc1(somewhat misplacing the queen's rook if he had been aiming for a minority attack) and Alekhine had responded 7...a6, preparing an extended fianchetto but perhaps not so useful in the Carlsbad. This is a far cry from employing either cxd5 or the Carlsbad structure as a weapon of choice, let alone at move four. Capa and Alekhine neither desired or feared the Exchange move order discussed in this thread. The point, of course, was to reinforce my reply to the OP. Thank you for the rest of the Exchange's history, though; I'm glad to learn all that.

I still have the impression that people who went so far as to learn the Nimzo in order to avoid the Exchange only began to do so sometime after the introduction of the Botvinnik f3 plan. Not that the Exchange wasn't seen as a major main line--it's just that it didn't  terrorize anyone into deforming his repertoire the way the Ne2-f3 plan and the Huebner sometimes did in later decades. 

In fact, I think the phenomenon of a dominant variation scaring people away is very rare and usually very temporary. Perhaps the flick-knife Benoni provides another example,  but opening choices are made for other reasons.
« Last Edit: 06/12/20 at 01:44:35 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #11 - 06/11/20 at 17:28:57
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I just checked Big Database 2018 and saw roughly the same numbers as you gave. Your point is a good one.

Approximately 1800 of the 1.d4 Nf6 games went 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5, and approximately 2200 of them went 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5, but that hardly makes a dent in the statistics.

Even looking through bulletins and tournament books, as I did, it's possible to get a poor view of the statistics. Plausible reasons for that would be either personal bias, or sampling error. Back when I drew my conclusions, I did have a database, of about 20,000 games. Wow, luxury!

Changing the subject a bit, one thing that struck me playing through games annotated in Chess Review during the 1930s and 1940s was how small advantages, like simply a queenside majority, would be declared already "decisive" in the notes. Kashdan and Reshevsky and Fine would win these games seemingly without resistance, and the magazine would just skip over the fact that these players were world class and their opponents were not. And since the "Flohr-Fine style" (as Fine named it) was geared towards simple technical positions, maybe that fueled a counter-move towards the Indian Defenses, making things less simple so black could just survive.

Regarding the Exchange Variation with Nge2, the success of this I think was due to Alekhine and Botvinnik, both of whom worked fiendishly at their openings. Alekhine reveled in attacking right at the transition from the opening to the middlegame (but notably he didn't try that against Capablanca). Botvinnik's smooth opening victories were the result of previous secret training games, so he knew precisely what to do in the early middlegame while his opponents were struggling over-the-board. It's a good opening, but once again when the stronger player is white it's easy to get a not quite correct assessment of the position.

Openings are complicated and full of hidden resources. When a world champion takes up an opening, more resources are found for that side and it starts to look good. People put the cart before the horse and think the world champion is playing that opening because it's good, when in fact it's the opposite -- the opening is good because the world champion is playing it. Nowadays computers provide a corrective, in that anybody can find  the hidden resources.
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #10 - 06/11/20 at 17:00:08
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A bit which stuck in my memory, from Larry Evans' Q&A column in 1973:

What is the current opinion on the Q's Indian proper, after 3 N·KB3, P-QN3 -- a  good defense or too passive? (It equalizes, which is why White generally avoids 3 N·KB3.) 
http://uscf1-nyc1.aodhosting.com/CL-AND-CR-ALL/CL-ALL/1973/1973_12.pdf
« Last Edit: 06/11/20 at 18:02:33 by kylemeister »  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #9 - 06/11/20 at 16:38:33
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/11/20 at 12:58:50:
All those openings from the 1972 world championship match became hotly debated for a few years, the Hubner Variation was one of them. But I think by 1975 or maybe 1976 whites were already running away from the Hubner. I don't remember the exact year, but I started seeing some games with the Hubner again in the mid- to late-1980s.

When I hear this or that opening was "not played", I remain skeptical. Is it based on opinion or fact? I remember being influenced by Fischer's repertoire and Larry Evans's opinions, and thinking that "everybody" played the KID, the Grunfeld, and the Nimzo-Indian, whereas "nobody" played the Orthodox QGD -- too sterile, according to Evans. Of course when I played 1.c4, I quite often met the Orthodox, but I put that down to facing a different class of players. Then I started playing through old tournament books, and made the rather interesting discovery that, as far as I can tell, there has never been a time when the Orthodox QGD has not been the most popular defense in the closed openings. We are talking IM and GM level, right up to world champion level. It's possible the Slav and Semi-Slav were at times more popular, but certainly if we compare Classical vs Indian, Classical has always held a comfortable lead. Some time later I switched to Classical myself, and chess became much more interesting to me.

I think the modern preference for Queen's Indian vs Nimzo-Indian is mostly down to move order flexibility. 1.Nf3 and 1.c4/2.Nf3 means the 7F7A7C7B70707B6A282F1E06. But when white plays 1.d4, I see a plenty of Nimzo-Indians.


The trend after 1945, largely under the influence of Soviet theory and practice, was to play for a win with both colours, rather than follow the "Win with White, Draw with Black" method. This led to a big increase in the popularity of asymmetrical defences against both 1 e4 and 1 d4. 

Thus between 1945 and 1970, although it is correct to say that the Queen's Gambit Declined continued to be played by many strong players, the Indian defences against 1 d4 were considerably more popular and more successful in master play, if we can believe the statistics in Megabase.

QGD: 
12,899 games 
White scores 58% with 39.7% draws
Indian Defences:
30,219 games
White scores 54% with 36% draws.
« Last Edit: 06/11/20 at 18:57:43 by Paddy »  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #8 - 06/11/20 at 15:19:46
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 06/10/20 at 20:28:54:
Was this how players approached these openings when the NID first became fashionable? Were the masters back in the day annoyed at the exchange QGD and so switched to the NID, or did they just want a different flavor of opening and to avoid QGD positions altogether and played something like the 4B666B6B704D606E607D686531390907 against 3.Nf3?


Nimzo conceived of the NID as a modern way of playing the Queens Gambit and named it as such.  It was a new idea, not an attempt to avoid anything annoying.  It's not clear when the opening first became "fashionable," but I've never heard that the masters of the past played it to avoid other openings in the way that you are asking about.  

I do, however, wonder about the period in the late 1940s and 1950s when the QGD exchange with the minority attack became a big weapon for White.  I don't know whether its the case or not, but if the minority attack was as fearsome as some writers suggest, its possible that people might have switched to the Nimzo to avoid it.     


 
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #7 - 06/11/20 at 13:29:04
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Pawnpusher wrote on 06/11/20 at 10:36:09:
I think in much of the 1960s GMs mostly didn't allow the Nimzo, but then that leads to the other hypermodern stalwart the Queen's Indian. Why exactly (fashion may have been a factor) they avoided the Nimzo is the question?


This impression is not backed up by the facts:

1960-70 - games in Megabase
Nimzo-Indian    4177 White scores 54% (40% draws)
Queen's Indian  1421 White scores 54%  (51% draws)
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #6 - 06/11/20 at 12:58:50
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All those openings from the 1972 world championship match became hotly debated for a few years, the Hubner Variation was one of them. But I think by 1975 or maybe 1976 whites were already running away from the Hubner. I don't remember the exact year, but I started seeing some games with the Hubner again in the mid- to late-1980s.

When I hear this or that opening was "not played", I remain skeptical. Is it based on opinion or fact? I remember being influenced by Fischer's repertoire and Larry Evans's opinions, and thinking that "everybody" played the KID, the Grunfeld, and the Nimzo-Indian, whereas "nobody" played the Orthodox QGD -- too sterile, according to Evans. Of course when I played 1.c4, I quite often met the Orthodox, but I put that down to facing a different class of players. Then I started playing through old tournament books, and made the rather interesting discovery that, as far as I can tell, there has never been a time when the Orthodox QGD has not been the most popular defense in the closed openings. We are talking IM and GM level, right up to world champion level. It's possible the Slav and Semi-Slav were at times more popular, but certainly if we compare Classical vs Indian, Classical has always held a comfortable lead. Some time later I switched to Classical myself, and chess became much more interesting to me.

I think the modern preference for Queen's Indian vs Nimzo-Indian is mostly down to move order flexibility. 1.Nf3 and 1.c4/2.Nf3 means the QID. But when white plays 1.d4, I see a plenty of Nimzo-Indians.
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #5 - 06/11/20 at 12:54:10
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ReneDescartes wrote on 06/10/20 at 22:16:03:
I believe the typical Saemisch-type strategic approach of doubling the c-pawns, fighting against the weak front c-pawn and big center, was invented in the mid-19th century in England. Elijah Williams beat Staunton and others using it--though not with this exact move order.

The Nimzo move order proper was tried in 1883 by Blackburne  (his opponent played 5.Bd2, and he played ...b6 and ...d5), and then in 1914 by Alekhine (who played ...b6,...c5 and ...d5 against Rubinstein's 5.e3) and Nimzovitch (who played the typical dark-square strategy of ...c5, ...d6, and ...e5 against Janowski's 5.e3). It was not a way of avoiding a feared variation, but rather part of the general exploration, by both hypermoderns like Gruenfeld and others like Maroczy, of new ways to treat the center. Nimzovitch himself played it a lot from 1922 on, usually with ...b6 and Bb7. By 1926, even Tarrasch(!) used it to win a beautiful game against Gilg with ...b6, ...Bb7 ...Ne4, and ...f5 .

At that time the QGD Exchange variation, while not unknown, was not thought very frightening. Otherwise, Capa and Alekhine would have used the Exchange against each other at least once in their match, or else avoided 3.Nc3. The Exchange's reputation grew especially after Botvinnik-Keres, when Botvinnik produced the plan with f3 and Ne2, and again during the 1980s when Kasparov used it to defeat Anderson and others. Today I think it is not particularly feared. Of course, the Nimzo is much less constrained for both sides than the QGD Exchange--less technical, more unbalanced, and strategically richer. I think players avoid the 3.Nc3 QGD today, if they do, not so much out of fear as out of a desire for a different sort of game.

I myself play both the Nimzo and the QGD as Black, usually with the Nimzo order, but not always. By the way, if you want to know how to play against the Exchange, read Ntirlis' Classical Repertoire.


The first two paragraphs are more or less correct. The popularity of both the Nimzo-Indian and the Queen's Indian begins in the 1920s, based on the hypermodern idea that the centre can be controlled to a sufficient extent by piece pressure, keeping the centre pawns flexibly in reserve.

The Exchange variation of the Queen's Gambit was played many times before the First World War, including by very strong players such as Steinitz, Pillsbury and (especially) Marshall. It's rise in popularity with other top players is usually dated from the great Carlsbad tournament of 1923, where the exchange on d5 was used as a way of avoiding the so-called Swiss Defence with an early ...a6, intending the manoeuvre ...dxc4, ...b5, ...Bb7,...c5 - a sort of delayed Queen's Gambit Accepted. Since then many sources refer to the Exchange Variation as an example of the "Carlsbad structure", which also occurs for example (with reversed colours) in the Caro-Kann Exchange variation. Capablanca (among others) was a great early fan of the Carlsbad and he used it three times in his 1927 match vs Alekhine.

The Exchange variation was also used as a way of avoiding the Cambridge Springs.

Marshall continued to use the Exchange throughout the 1920s and it was soon taken up enthusiastically by younger masters such as Flohr and Reshevsky. At that time the two main plans for White were 
a) 0-0 and minority attack with b4-b5; 
b) 0-0-0 with kingside pawn storm. 
Both Nf3 and Nge2 were used with these plans.

As noted above, the rise of a third plan with Nge2, 0-0 and f3 dates from the well-known game Botvinnik-Keres, USSR ch 1952.

A useful source on the early history of several major openings (but not including the Nimzo- or Queen's Indian) is "Chess from Morphy to Botvinnik" (1951) by Imre König.
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #4 - 06/11/20 at 12:11:33
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In the 60s? I didn't know about that. The two best players of the era, Spassky and Petrosian, both were allowed to play it in high-stakes encounters during that time. Petrosian allowed and faced the Nimzo during both world championship matches with Spassky. But later, I remember a time when the Hübner variation was feared, and as the main lines involved 4.e3 and Nf3, other lines like 4.Qc2, 4.e3 with 5.Ne2, and 5.Bd3 6.Ne2 were not thought so great, so some even switched to 1.e4 to avoid the Hübner! I'm can't quite remember when that was, maybe Kyle can; but the situation has ameliorated today because White players maintain tension against the Hübner and don't push d4-d5, while other variations are thought of as also good for White.
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #3 - 06/11/20 at 10:36:09
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I think in much of the 1960s GMs mostly didn't allow the Nimzo, but then that leads to the other hypermodern stalwart the Queen's Indian. Why exactly (fashion may have been a factor) they avoided the Nimzo is the question?
  
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Re: The History of the Nimzo-Indian Defense
Reply #2 - 06/10/20 at 23:00:05
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Re "3...d5 against 3.Nf3, transposing into the Queen’s Gambit Declined while avoiding the exchange variation with Nge2" -- it also avoids (or certainly can) the main lines of the Nf3 Exchange.

In Reuben Fine's book Practical Chess Openings from 1948, he wrote that the NID "has steadily increased in importance in the past few years" and that "its popularity is undoubtedly due to the fact that it, perhaps more than any comparable defense, combines theoretical soundness with a reasonable basis for aggressive counterplay."

Of the QGD Exchange he wrote (four years before Botvinnik-Keres) that "recent practice has been overwhelmingly in favor of White in the past few years" and that "it is currently Black's most difficult problem in the theory of the Orthodox Defense."  However, he gave the approach with an early ...Nf8-e6, which he thought best, as leading to equality.
« Last Edit: 06/11/20 at 04:27:14 by kylemeister »  
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