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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New player opening advice (Read 18932 times)
Straggler
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #42 - 06/15/20 at 07:46:46
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an ordinary chessplayer makes the point more effectively than I did. But my suggestion was that the coach should recommend a move as well as, not instead of, explaining the pros and cons of the various options. If the student understands the reasoning then he/she could of course make his/her own choice. But if the student wants a recommendation I believe it does no harm, and can be helpful, for the coach to make one.
« Last Edit: 06/15/20 at 12:59:05 by Straggler »  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #41 - 06/15/20 at 02:14:36
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/15/20 at 02:00:32:
Even our mythical 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nf3 player has a repertoire, it's 1.e4.

That last point is true and very funny. Anyway, we disagree, and though I have my point of view, I don't believe in laying down dogma on how one must teach and learn. It's too individual and too much more art than science, pace Markovich.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #40 - 06/15/20 at 02:00:32
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I agree if a player is surprised by 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nf3 dxe4, they aren't ready for opening books. Someone like that isn't even ready for individual instruction. They need to be playing skittles against others at their level until they figure out how to not hang their queen. But it doesn't describe any 1100-players I know, and to bring it up is a bit of a straw man.

I have to say I'm totally shocked that people are dead set against *other* people studying openings *at all*. Learning from books keeps us from reinventing the wheel. For crying out loud, the Persians had books over a thousand years ago, with opening theory! It's where we got the word tabiya.

Some people will always be terrible chess players, and perhaps should be sheltered from their self-knowledge. (I don't necessarily include 1200-1400 players in that category.) But others are simply inexperienced, and needn't be coddled. Instead of steering students away from repertoires, opening books, opening study, etc., explain why there's so much theory, and explain why they don't need to learn it all. If they are really keen and improving, show them the different types of openings books, which ones they need at the moment, and how to correctly use them to improve. That would really be teaching them how to fish. If they are not keen, show them how to get the most results with the least study, and they will be appreciative.

Also I think the point of picking a line against the French was missed, as in whoosh. The study method is supposed to be: play a game, look up the opening in the book, find an improvement to use for the next game. So someone plays the French Defense against me, I have no idea what to do, I look it up in the book and (in the book I had in my youth), there are TWO recommended lines for white -- 3.Nc3 and 3.Nd2. This is exactly the kind of thing I used to discuss with my friends. What do you play? What does everybody else play? What should I play? The French problem is not about choosing moves, but about choosing a repertoire. It's not cheating to ask a coach their opinion there.

That's the essence of an opening repertoire. In any position you are likely to reach, if there is more than one good move, which one do you play? If you always play A instead of B, your repertoire is A. Saying beginners don't need a repertoire is just silly. Even our mythical 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nf3 player has a repertoire, it's 1.e4.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #39 - 06/14/20 at 23:18:19
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I'm with Monocle's first take on this. I would like to add that, while the student might like it if the teacher answered his question about what to play after 1.e4 e6, that doesn't mean the teacher would be instructing him well. Give a man an opening move and you feed him for a day; teach him to evaluate opening moves and you feed him for a lifetime; keep giving him opening moves and you turn him into a fish. 

The students love it—they’re being spared the trouble of thinking, learning official secrets with arcane vocabulary, acquiring tools with which to pretend they’re more advanced than they are, assuaging a misplaced fear of opening preparation (even while they feed it), acquiring a deceptive sense of control, learning traps which will win them some automated games while maintaining an air of sophistication, and diverting themselves with the fantasy of constructing an airtight repertoire.

With my students I make such questions into an exercise or discussion of opening principles and of what passes for tactics at that level, i.e. noticing threats and keeping track of material. I prepared this material before TopNotch's post on the Socratic method, but I couldn't agree more. Through the Socratic method, you can teach him to think out opening issues for himself.

If a student asks me “what should I do against the French,” I might ask him the question back. If his natural reaction is to play 1.e4 e6 is 2.Nf3 because he plays 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3, it is time to discuss what 1...e5 and 2.Nf3 actually do in the open games. He needs to know that one of White's major goals in 1.e4 openings is to achieve d4 without paying a high price. 1...e5 not only occupies a central square; it discourages 2.d4 because of 2...exd4 Qxd4 3.Nc6 gaining time. In other words, White has a small strategic threat after 1.e4, and according to classical principles (which are by far the easiest to grasp and apply), when White is allowed to carry it out and attain a major opening goal without being punished, he can bet he may do so immediately (unless he can win material). --Now the student can figure out for himself what is a good move at move 2 in the French, Caro-Kann, Pirc, Modern, Polish, and so on. 

Next, after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5, I might propose 2.Nf3 and see what he thinks. The symmetrical-looking structure after 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 is visually quite stable; many students are shocked when Black plays dxe4. (This is a “tactic” at 1100. How silly opening preparation looks in light of this, the true face of the difficulty!) So now we can discuss ways to prevent that threat. Let’s ask him for a list of moves that do that (another useful exercise: think of all the ways to meet or ignore a threat): 3.e5, 3.dxe5, 3.f3, 3.Nc3, 3.Nd2, 3.Bd3, 3.Qe2, 3.Qd3, 3.Qf3, Qg4. 3.exd5 trades a pawn on the 4th for a pawn on the 3rd and makes an exchange without a good reason, 3.e5 moves a piece twice, and 3.f3...well, you know. Throw these out for now because, while they might turn out ok, you can bank that it is good to develop a piece while meeting a threat and one can do that here. --Now he knows something that will guide him in many more situations.   Queen moves are generally undesirable this early unless they win material and are more likely to count as un-developent than as development. 3.Nd2 blocks in a bishop, and 3.Bd3 moves the bishop where it is currently blocked.  It is not good to get used to playing passive or self-blocking moves. So 3.Nc3 is most normal here. Some of the  other moves are just as good, but harder to understand. Maybe later I can recommend 4.exd5, explaining that 4.e5 is a little stronger, but difficult to handle and learn with.

A player who has been taught to think for himself in this way and who gets all his pieces activated before moving anything twice, who makes a minimum of pawn moves except when the center is offered for free, and who does so without losing material or ceding his opponent total central control, will often beat others with more opening preparation and even come out better at the end of the opening stage.

A matter of survival? It feels like that-- it feels worse to lose to an opening trap than to play the opening by book and then blow the game with a later “counting” error. It’s demoralizing to lose to a book move. You feel outclassed and sucker-punched, defenseless, like you can't survive out there; whereas when you lose in the latter way, you get to tell yourself you played well, tried to execute your plan, then made a mistake. Yet you can’t learn without losing many, many games. So it’s OK if a student loses to opening preparation sometimes if he wins much more by using his acquired skills in thinking on his feet. After the student has lost (or not!) to an opening line, you can discuss that line.

There are a lot of good ways to teach, and it will not harm students to have some opening preparation. If an adult student values  opening knowledge for its own sake, fine. But at this level I don't believe it will help him, even if he thinks it does.

 

« Last Edit: 06/15/20 at 20:35:42 by ReneDescartes »  
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TopNotch
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #38 - 06/14/20 at 17:56:49
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Straggler wrote on 06/14/20 at 12:45:57:
How often does a 1200-1400 player meet the Ruy Lopez anyway?


Excellent point, and if he does meet it against his peers of similar rating something like the following is a good way to play: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 exd4 at 1200 - 1400 level, if your opponent leaves bits hanging you should take them unless you see a concrete reason not to, in this way you learn quickly and at the same time call your opponents bluff. Most of the time 1200's just make so called book moves without any real understanding why, so test them early, grab their stuff since most of the time they have no clear concept of how to get it back or what adequate compensation consists of. What happens in such encounters often provide excellent teachable moments.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #37 - 06/14/20 at 17:46:31
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Whatever opening you choose for the student, provide at least 10 illustrative games, only then start answering questions. You should also ask the student questions like what does 3.Bb5 in the Ruy actually threaten, and take cues from his answer. The socratic method of teaching can be effective in chess when conducted properly.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Straggler
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #36 - 06/14/20 at 12:45:57
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How often does a 1200-1400 player meet the Ruy Lopez anyway?
  
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Bibs
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #35 - 06/14/20 at 12:37:33
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Yes, I would agree with a ...Bc5 line versus the Lopez. I had something similar in mind.

I'd also advocate against the Steinitz (despite my own interest in it, my love of Keres' games, and having played  it)

There are several such that might be suitable, where black gets his lumps out:

Bc5
Nf6 & Bc5
a6, Bc5 (Moller)

And, like MNb, I somewhat follow the Markovich approach of Tarrasch easy development.
  
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #34 - 06/14/20 at 12:09:31
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Not that I advise against Bibs' recommendations, but my results against the Winawer improved enormously when I started to play 4.e5 followed by a3 and Qg4. That was back in the days I was young and (not so) promising, ie many decades ago. It took me several years to find out, so when coaching kids it might be a good idea to  organize some training games and decides afterwards what feels best.

However the OP asked advise for an adult and given "He doesn't want to spend too much time working on openings" and also given the popularity of the London these days (making it more likely that his opponents runderstand how to deal with it, relatively speaking) I'd pick the Colle-Zukertort instead. Play through a couple of problem lines (like Bogoljubow-Capablanca, New York 1924), tell him he should aim for either c2-c4 or e3-e4 and he should be fine for say two years.
Assuming he knows the first three principles of opening play (controlling the centre, developing pieces and king safety) he should pick a repertoire that allows him to use all his pieces. So I'm amazed to meet the Steinitz against the Ruy Lopez in this thread; I wish him good luck liberating his cramped position. Let him play something with ...Bc5 instead. If 1...e5 is too much work he might try the Classical Scandinavian with ...Bg4. It's as dubious as the Steinitz, but the difference is that White needs to play accurately and sharply.
Complement this with the Tarrasch - I largely remain an adept of the Markovich doctrine.

Btw in chess you first have learn to run before you learn to crawl (IM George Botterill some 35 years ago). That's what TopNotch has been arguing for, despite claiming the opposite in his first comment.  Wink
  

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Bibs
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #33 - 06/14/20 at 10:58:11
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Yes, it is a reasonable question.

One answer might be 3.Nc3. 
if Bb4, then play Nge2. Or take on d5.
If Nf6, play Bg5. And play.

4.Qd3 works very well actually. Yes, queen is out (against 'rules', huh, but is very active, so that's fine), but dxe4 follows inevitably, then white gets bits out to obvious squares: Nf3, Bd3, Q is on h4, Bg5 etc.

That's enough for starters. It's easy to follow, it's clear. And it is open chess.

Or, favoured by several here over the years:

exd5, Nf3, c4 - indeed recently suggested in 'Keep it Simple 1.e4'
  
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Straggler
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #32 - 06/14/20 at 07:28:08
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Paddy wrote on 06/14/20 at 00:07:54:
Don't worry about results, but look up the opening afterwards.

But that's the point: what should you be looking up? When the kids I coach ask me "What should I do against the French?" they want me to recommend a line. They don't need, or want, to know much theory on whatever line they play; but they do want to know what to play on move 3 next time. I'm better placed to make that choice than they are, so it's reasonable for them to ask me to do so.
  
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #31 - 06/14/20 at 03:15:50
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BadDays wrote on 06/12/20 at 22:07:42:
TopNotch wrote on 06/12/20 at 19:09:32:

Find your friend a nice annotated game collection, and work from there. I would also recommend The Art of Chess Combination by Eugene Znosko-Borovsky, in fact get the whole chess instruction series by this author and your friend will thank you for it.

That's it, go in peace.

Postscript: The whole idea of a repertoire at the 1200-1400 range is ludicrous, you have to learn to crawl before you can walk. Why does this always have to be repeated, it should be obvious. What sense is it memorizing subtle Breyer move orders, if you don't understand the evolution of the Open Games and trust me on this between the 1200 - 1400 range the Ruy is the last thing you need worry about.


I appreciate your book recommendations. 

I reject your premise that an opening repertoire is ludicrous for a player of his level. Obviously, opening study should be scaled depending on the strength of the player in question, but I am certain that studying the opening is beneficial for any player of any level.

It should be clear from reading this thread that I don't intend to have him "memorize Breyer move orders". Perhaps there is a widespread misunderstanding about what "studying the opening" means since I would suggest that memorizing opening moves at any level is likely to be a waste of time. In my opinion, there is a lot of instructive value in trying to understand subtle Breyer move orders for example, even for a player of 1200-1400 strength. As I said in a previous post, you cannot study the middlegame without studying the opening.

To be clear, I don't expect my friend to master the Spanish or any other opening. I do want to have some idea of where to point him if he runs into 3.Bb5, for example, which is why I made this thread.

I will clarify further with an example. Let's say he faces 3.Bb5 in a blitz game and asks me how he should reply. Now, it's my job as his teacher to point him in a direction. In that position, he could play 3...a6 or 3...Nf6 or 3...d6 and so on. I would like to be able to say, "I've thought about it and I think that 3...a6 is the move you should consider next time you get this position. Here's how the game might continue from there." 

So the premise of my original post was to solicit ideas for suitable openings to suggest to him in such situations. I could draw an analogy to running a game of Dungeons and Dragons; I have worked out many of the story elements beforehand, but I will only reveal them to my players when it makes some sense or when they ask specifically. Perhaps I should have made my intent more clear in my original post, but I didn't want to be too wordy. I am somewhat surprised at the reaction many posters have had to the idea of working on openings with a new player.

I also should have made it clear in my original post that I'm not particularly interested in discussing the merit of my approach. I think such a discussion is interesting but obviously not productive with regards to my goal. 

Anyway, I appreciate the thoughtful responses from Ordinary Chessplayer and MaxJudd, but nobody else has even attempted to engage with my questions! If all of your responses can be boiled down to "don't bother", then why bother posting those responses at all? Do you think you're going to change my mind by dismissing my premise? When I said "I appreciate any and all responses" in my original post, I didn't exactly expect such nonsense.


You are right I should not have said ludicrous, I should have found an even stronger term. Kidding aside at the 1200 - 1400 range nailing down fundamentals is much more important than an opening repertoire, a firm grasp of sound opening principles along with playing through well annotated (with prose as well as lines) complete games is important so as to see how advantages are converted or bad opening play punished and so on as opposed to a +/= or -/+ at the end of an opening line. At 1200 - 1400 level a most important skill to learn is 'Counting' which is essentially how not lose material when the pieces come into contact, for example:  1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 d6 5.Bg5 Bg4 This loses material and an expert level player will immediately spot this, but for lower levels it is not easy at all. The technique is known as 'Counting', that is count the number of pieces you are capturing and then count the number of pieces your opponent is capturing. In this example White is capturing the Knight, Queen and Bishop while Black is only capturing the Queen and Bishop. So at the end of this exchange sequence Black loses a piece. 6.Bxf6! At the 1200-1400 range such opportunities are often presented and often missed. The thinking  usually goes something like this, oh no! he's attacking my queen I gotta move it etc, etc. [6.Qxg4 Another common mistake at lower levels is trying to look flashy but in fact when you 'count' you will see that White captures Bishop and Queen while Black also captures Bishop and Queen, hence this operation has only lead to an equal exchange of pieces. 6...Nxg4 7.Bxd8 Nxd8] 6...Bxd1 7.Bxd8 Kxd8 8.Kxd1

To be clear my reply to your original post was not necessarily meant for your eyes only nor to convince you, but to share my thoughts with all those at that level genuinely seeking a reliable method to improve. As far as I am concerned any sensible opening or openings would suffice for your student but it does little to fix the underlying problem of improving your level. 
  

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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #30 - 06/14/20 at 00:07:54
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Totally agree with Toppy.
Plus:
Try out openings that have an emphasis on opening the centre, developing the pieces quickly and naturally, and employing simple direct strategies. Don't worry about results, but look up the opening afterwards. 

Try to get a feel for the "open game" and the initiative. (Playing closed openings only postpones the crisis - lasting longer might give a player the illusion of progress, but that's usually what it is - an illusion.)

At the same time, learn and practise just the most basic endgames and work on tactics systematically, both typical mating positions and the most common tactical devices. There are lots of books that will help; a lot of my students have learned a lot from the "...for kids" books by Murray Chandler. Antonio Gude's books are also good for this IMHO.

And intersperse study with practice games - examine these afterwards and draw conclusions.
  
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #29 - 06/13/20 at 10:02:07
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/13/20 at 05:52:26:
BadDays wrote on 06/12/20 at 22:31:00:

I like this idea, but what to suggest if my student finds himself in the starting position of the Meran? As far as I know, 6...dxc4 is the only "correct" move and I don't want to suggest a dubious continuation to a new player, but at the same time I think that we are not ready to dive into the strategic nuances that result from 6...dxc4.

6...dxc4 might be the "only" move for GMs today, but in the past all of 6...Be7, 6...Bd6, and 6...Bb4 were played regularly by very strong players. Kaissiber had a nice article on 6...Be7 (see no.26 and a followup in no.30). Obviously I can't reproduce their analysis, but the point is that even these "abandoned" variations still have resources, and anyway what was good enough for a top player in the 1920s must be more than good enough for a beginner today.


6...Bd6 is still played occasionally by modern GMs at the 2600+ level, and if 2600 GMs are prepared to play something against other 2600 GMs at classical time controls, it can't be that dodgy.  

Of course, by that logic you can also play stuff like 3...Nd4 or 3...f5 in the Ruy Lopez. 
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #28 - 06/13/20 at 05:52:26
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BadDays wrote on 06/12/20 at 22:31:00:

I like this idea, but what to suggest if my student finds himself in the starting position of the Meran? As far as I know, 6...dxc4 is the only "correct" move and I don't want to suggest a dubious continuation to a new player, but at the same time I think that we are not ready to dive into the strategic nuances that result from 6...dxc4.

6...dxc4 might be the "only" move for GMs today, but in the past all of 6...Be7, 6...Bd6, and 6...Bb4 were played regularly by very strong players. Kaissiber had a nice article on 6...Be7 (see no.26 and a followup in no.30). Obviously I can't reproduce their analysis, but the point is that even these "abandoned" variations still have resources, and anyway what was good enough for a top player in the 1920s must be more than good enough for a beginner today.

Strong players make fun of me for playing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O d6. "How can you try to win that as black?" Before, I played the Modern Steinitz myself, but in a New York Open I lost as white to an Israeli IM in the Old Steinitz. So I asked a Senior Master (2400+ USCF) how he plays against the Old Steinitz, and he said he didn't know! He just made it up every time. I had to figure it out for myself. Part of that was testing the black side in club games, because I couldn't get the position as white. Thus the verbal jabs. But I also got to thinking, if an opening has been abandoned for so long that nobody remembers why, could that fact alone make it a decent practical weapon? People play all kinds of rubbish after 4...d6, I've seen 5.h3, 5.Re1, 5.d3, and even if they play 5.d4 a correct follow-up is rare.

I don't recommend the Old Steinitz, though, because I had to study it quite intensively to make it barely work. And even for me it's just a third or fourth string opening. But the Semi-Meran (i.e. without 6...dxc4) is in better theoretical shape than the Old Steinitz, I think.
  
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