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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New player opening advice (Read 18921 times)
MNb
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #57 - 06/20/20 at 07:54:23
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And maybe GM Seirawan had become an even better chass player had he begun with open games.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #56 - 06/20/20 at 06:35:03
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Bibs wrote on 06/19/20 at 22:55:03:
Recommending a fianchetto to beginners seems like an absolutely terrible idea.

Maybe the idea doesn't seem so terrible to Seirawan because that's what he used to do when he was a beginner.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #55 - 06/19/20 at 23:45:45
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Bibs wrote on 06/19/20 at 22:55:03:
No chance to learn about open play. 
Weak f7 square? Open lines? Time?

One could for instance learn some things regarding these moves ...which an IM playing Black in the Banter Blitz Cup had apparently forgotten.

1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 Nd7 3. e4 e5 4. Bc4 Be7 5. de de
  
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Bibs
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #54 - 06/19/20 at 22:55:03
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Recommending a fianchetto to beginners seems like an absolutely terrible idea. Atrocious.

No chance to learn about open play. 
Weak f7 square? Open lines? Time? 


  
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GabrielGale
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #53 - 06/19/20 at 05:58:19
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In addition, someone else mentioned this recently: Edmar Mednis, How to Play Good Opening Moves.
Yasser Seirawan recommended Nf3 g3 Bg2 and Nf6 g6 Bg7 vs everything in his learning chess book.
  

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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #52 - 06/19/20 at 05:18:21
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In response to OP's question, I do sympathise with your frustration with the answers you obtained on the forum. A lot of posters do not seem to understand the category of an intelligent adult chess learner who also wants some specific lines (say up to 10 moves) as a comfort crutch. I was that but help I received was not on this forum but elsewhere esp those aimed at intelligent junior chess. Without ranting on, let me suggest this very simple albeit incomplete repertoire by Dr Dave from Devon Chess (UK) which is aimed ta the IQP position W & B and will serve your friend well into the 1800s-2000s and will satisfy the so-called iconic sacrosanct "Markovich" Doctrine.
http://exeterchessclub.org.uk/chessx/pdf/JuniorRepertoire.pdf
check out also the rest of the website.
I do agree with advice on getting your friend to play through annotated games. I suggest Valeri Beim's book on Morphy's games (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/585452.Paul_Morphy)
Good luck!
  

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A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #51 - 06/15/20 at 20:37:33
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hicetnunc wrote on 06/15/20 at 16:10:59:

after ...exd4, you'll get a semi-open position in the Steinitz. Frankly, if somone doesn't have much time for chess, I think it's a very valid choice.

Yes, the Steinitz is not too bad, although I noted some time ago that Campora seems to have moved on. In addition to the move order 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O d6, there is another scheme with 3...d6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bd7 6.Nc3 g6!?, played sometimes by Dzindzhichashvili. 
Edited:
I just realized I messed up the move order. It should be 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 d6 4.d4 Bd7 5.Nc3 exd4 6.Nxd4 g6.
There was an interesting game by Onischuk in Flear (2001) Offbeat Spanish. I only tried this once in serious play, after 7.Be3 Nf6 8.Qd2! (Onischuk's opponent played 8.f3) my last-round IM opponent offered a draw, maybe he was tired. I had a creative solution prepared in some training games, it would have been nice to test against a strong opponent, but a little risky so I was happy to take the draw.

Another opening along the same idea as the Steinitz is the Antoshin Philidor: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7. This is probably even better than the Steinitz, because black develops the kingside first instead of the queenside. Again this has been recommended by Dzindzhichashvili. It's quite reasonable to give up the center and then just keep developing, after all not many class players will be able to exploit the space advantage like Tarrasch could.
  
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #50 - 06/15/20 at 19:35:30
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Monocle wrote on 06/15/20 at 18:41:53:

By the way, that game transposed to an old main line of the Steinitz Defense in the Ruy Lopez.  7...Qe7 was suggested by Tarrasch, according to Reuben Fine.
  
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Monocle
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #49 - 06/15/20 at 18:41:53
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MNb wrote on 06/15/20 at 16:38:43:
hicetnunc wrote on 06/15/20 at 16:10:59:
I'll back it up with some authority argument as well : it has been recommended by N.Davies too  Tongue


"The Argentinian GM, Daniel Campora, has been playing it ...."
As far as this is relevant for someone with an ELO of 1200 - 1400 it's actually an argument contra the recommendation - to play the Steinitz well you need a high level of understanding. That's exactly what I meant when I wrote "good luck liberating your position"; the friend of the OP obviously lacks the necessary chess skills.
I always like it when someone tries to contradict me with an argument that instead backs my standpoint.  Cheesy


Forget Campora, it can't be that hard to play if NNs were playing it 100+ years ago.  Here's a random 19th century junk game (Showalter-Olly, NY 1893):

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1124754

Didn't look like Black had much trouble to me.  I don't see today's 1400s doing much better - White's advantage just fizzles with inaccurate play.
  
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MNb
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #48 - 06/15/20 at 16:38:43
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hicetnunc wrote on 06/15/20 at 16:10:59:
I'll back it up with some authority argument as well : it has been recommended by N.Davies too  Tongue


"The Argentinian GM, Daniel Campora, has been playing it ...."
As far as this is relevant for someone with an ELO of 1200 - 1400 it's actually an argument contra the recommendation - to play the Steinitz well you need a high level of understanding. That's exactly what I meant when I wrote "good luck liberating your position"; the friend of the OP obviously lacks the necessary chess skills.
I always like it when someone tries to contradict me with an argument that instead backs my standpoint.  Cheesy
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #47 - 06/15/20 at 16:32:43
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@whoosh
That was an answer to Straggler, not you, AOC.

Straggler wrote on 06/14/20 at 07:28:08:
Paddy wrote on 06/14/20 at 00:07:54:
Don't worry about results, but look up the opening afterwards.

But that's the point: what should you be looking up?

The opening line in the game your student just lost (or won), at the first point where you think he played an inadvisable opening move. Though at this level you wouldn't necessarily have to use a book, or teach him to use one, to answer such questions; nor would you have to answer such questions directly.  Using opening reference books doesn't need to begin until a somewhat higher level, in my opinion.
  
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hicetnunc
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #46 - 06/15/20 at 16:10:59
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MNb wrote on 06/14/20 at 12:09:31:
(...)
Assuming he knows the first three principles of opening play (controlling the centre, developing pieces and king safety) he should pick a repertoire that allows him to use all his pieces. So I'm amazed to meet the Steinitz against the Ruy Lopez in this thread; I wish him good luck liberating his cramped position. Let him play something with ...Bc5 instead. If 1...e5 is too much work he might try the Classical Scandinavian with ...Bg4. It's as dubious as the Steinitz, but the difference is that White needs to play accurately and sharply.(...)


after ...exd4, you'll get a semi-open position in the Steinitz. Frankly, if somone doesn't have much time for chess, I think it's a very valid choice. I'll back it up with some authority argument as well : it has been recommended by N.Davies too  Tongue https://chessimprover.com/another-forgotten-line-the-steinitz-defence-to-the-ruy...

But I get your point that it's not a great opening for long term growth. I agree.
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #45 - 06/15/20 at 13:36:34
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@Straggler Straggler wrote on 06/15/20 at 07:46:46:
an ordinary chessplayer makes the point more effectively than I did. But my suggestion was that the coach should recommend a move as well as, not instead of, explaining the reasons for that recommendation. If the student understands the reasons then he/she could of course make his/her own choice. But if the student wants a recommendation I believe it does no harm, and can be helpful, for the coach to make one.

That is what I said I would do. 

When TopNotch recommended the Socratic method, I think he meant to use questions to lead the student to the place you want him to find. In the original, this can appear quite strange. "Now are we agreed that if the wind blows, it therefore does not suck?" --"But of course, Socrates, how could it be otherwise?" "And if a thing does not suck, would you say that thing could be bad?" "Of course not, for if it were bad, it would also suck." "Then what do you think, is the wind, which after all the gods direct, good or bad?" "It would seem it must be good, Socrates." When Plato is the writer, of course, it will have more levels than meet the eye.

Anyway, I propose having in mind the moves 2.d4, 3.Nc3 from the beginning, but delivering them in such a way as to teach the student how to think once out of book and to demystify the process. Note that at the end, based on knowledge, 4.exd5 is recommended, even against the earlier thinking. So the student is given a recommendation of "repertoire" moves, but the main thing is that he is taught how to work out opening moves for himself and never to stop thinking. I don't think the book move itself does that much good in the end at this level.

Turning a man into a fish is a joke which must be watered down. Of course it does no harm and can help a little to just give him some moves, as it does no harm, and may increase his interest and pleasure, to teach him the history of chess and show him the original Staunton pieces. But if after their second game our 1100 opponent undertakes to prepare 16 moves of French Exchange Variation theory while our 1100 student continues learning to think, then I believe that three months later our now-1140 student will beat our now-1105 opponent in a match.

@Phil Adams
Thanks for a nice list of opening principles!
« Last Edit: 06/15/20 at 19:39:38 by ReneDescartes »  
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Phil Adams
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #44 - 06/15/20 at 13:02:44
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As regards what precise openings to teach, I suggest that the best approach might be to think of it in these terms: equip a potential star with a weapon and supply an average player with a shield!

"Your only task in the opening is to reach a playable middlegame. (...) I can recommend the following: simplicity and economy." GM Lajos Portisch

A suitable "shield" opening for White, one that an average player can play with confidence for as long he or she wants to play chess, is the Colle System, basically 1 d4, 2 Nf3, 3 e3, 4 Bd3, 5 0-0, 6 Nbd2, always answering Black's ...c5 with c3, and preparing to break with e3-e4 at an appropriate moment. This opening is very much in accordance with Portisch's advice quoted above. Admittedly there are one or two lines for Black that require a different treatment by White, but there is far less to learn than with a 1 e4 repertoire.

Other almost universal "system" openings that might also make suitable "shields" for the average player with little time or inclination to study chess theory might include other QP games such as the London System, the Torre and the Zukertort, as well as the King's Indian Attack and even possibly the English.

For Black one could consider (against 1 e4) the Caro Kann or the French (perhaps the so-called Fort Knox variation) and (against 1 d4 and all other Closed Openings) the the Orthodox QGD set-up or the Slav, or even the fairly recent idea of "the Sniper" with 1...g6, 2...Bg7 and 3...c5 against almost everything.

I suggest that this approach also helps players who, although clearly intelligent, have encountered problems remembering complicated tactical lines. 

I would always encourage a coach to devote some sessions to exploring and playing "thematic" practice games with the Two Knights Defence 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6, since it is rich in tactics for both sides. Players should be shown for instance the Fork Trick 4 Nc3?! Nxe4! and all the possible continuations; the Fried Liver 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Nxd5?! 6 Nxf7!? (or 6 d4!?); the Traxler 4 Ng5 Bc5!? 5 Nxf7 Bxf2+!; the main line 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Na5!; the Fritz 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Nd4, the Max Lange Attack 4 d4 exd4 5 0-0 Bc5 6 e5!. 

After a few such sessions, it will rapidly have become clear whether a student has difficulty in remembering precise details. I suggest it would be fruitless to persist in trying to encourage such a player to persevere with playing such sharp and complex lines; they need the "shield" of a "system" opening if we are going to expect them to maintain an interest in the game and make gradual progress.

I suggest it is also worth keeping in mind that even young players soon start showing signs of a preferred "style", often based on their character and temperament.
  
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Re: New player opening advice
Reply #43 - 06/15/20 at 13:00:37
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Regarding the openings, my coaching experience tells me it is important to stress to all players the basic principles, over and over again, especially 1-5 below.

1. try to control or contest the centre of the board, with pawns and minor pieces;
2. develop your minor pieces to good squares.
3. move pawns only if they help with 1. and 2.
4. don’t move the same piece twice in the opening without a really good reason;
5. look after your king by preparing castling - be especially alert for attacks against f2 (f7) the weakest point in the position at the start of the game;
6. if the centre has been opened up by pawn exchanges (or has that possibility), it is usually wise to castle quickly, generally on the kingside, but if the centre is blocked there is often no rush to castle and thus give away your king’s future location (“I know where you live!”).
7. Develop the rooks to open files; if there are no open files, the best plan is often to prepare to open one, generally on the wing where you have a space advantage.
8. Don't exchange pawns or pieces automatically - usually one side will benefit positionally more than the other from an apparently equal exchange. If you have more space, try to avoid piece exchanges altogether, to leave the opponent cramped.
9. Pawns can’t retreat, so advance them with caution. Every pawn move creates a weakness, i.e. the square(s) previously protected by the pawn will no longer be covered once the pawn advances.
10. Don’t try to attack without justification - for an attack to be sound, you need to have some advantage: material, positional (e.g. the enemy king is exposed) or ‘local’ (i.e. you have superiority in numbers in the area of the board where you are attacking).
  
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