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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4 (Read 17220 times)
MNb
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #24 - 08/21/20 at 12:55:21
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No, I mean 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 and 5.e4.
Thanks for pointing out the error.
  

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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #23 - 08/21/20 at 11:50:14
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MNb wrote on 08/21/20 at 07:50:38:

grandpatzer wrote on 08/21/20 at 07:21:34:
or the QGA.

If you know how to get a dull game as Black after 3.e4 and after 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e4 I invite you to tell us.

You mean 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e4 I think
  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #22 - 08/21/20 at 07:50:38
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grandpatzer wrote on 08/21/20 at 07:21:34:
The Main line Slav is certainly not very exciting in the opening stage.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.Ne5 Nbd7 7.Nxc4 Qc7 8.g3 e5 9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Nf4 looks pretty exciting to me. If GM Morozevich plays this you know it's not going to be dull. Perhaps you are thinking of 7...Nb6 8.Ne5 a5 9.Bg5 h6 10.Bh4 e6 ?

grandpatzer wrote on 08/21/20 at 07:21:34:

Alternatively, I'd suggest to try the Queen's Gambit Declined (Classical or Tartakower),

You neglect the Exchange Variation, specifically mentioned by the OP.

grandpatzer wrote on 08/21/20 at 07:21:34:
or the QGA.

If you know how to get a dull game as Black after 3.e4 and after 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e4 I invite you to tell us.
  

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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #21 - 08/21/20 at 07:21:34
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The Main line Slav is certainly not very exciting in the opening stage. Alternatively, I'd suggest to try the Queen's Gambit Declined (Classical or Tartakower), or the QGA.
  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #20 - 08/20/20 at 14:10:13
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Spongebobiscool wrote on 08/15/20 at 16:13:40:
Hi ChessPub!

However, against the Catalan (1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3), I was satisfied with 4... c5. This system has a somewhat dubious reputation but with limited analysis, I at least managed to get decent results in blitz games. White usually gets an initiative on the Queenside, but the positions are rather simplistic and Black usually doesn't have too much trouble developing his pieces.


Don't you just transpose to a Tarrasch - hence why not playing it? Are you talking about 4...dxc4 5.Bg2 c5 or the lines 5.cxd5 Nxd5 / 5.cxd5 cxd4?
  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #19 - 08/20/20 at 09:52:38
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I took a quick look at Meier's repertoire. He prefers the Nimzo + QGD/Bogo complex:

Against 1. d4 e6 2. c4 Cf6 3. Cf3 d5 4. Cc3, he used to play the Tartakower 4... Fe7 5. Fg5 h6 6. Fh4 O-O 7. e3 b6,
Then, he moved to the Vienna, 4... dxc4 5. e4 Fb4 6. Fg5
And in recent years, he has added the Bogo à la Andersson, 3... Fb4+ 4. Fd2 Fxd2+

Against the Catalan, 4. g3 Fb4+ 5. Fd2 he uses either 5... Fe7 or 5... Fd6
  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #18 - 08/20/20 at 07:17:42
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How about Old Indian? It is not as bad as it looks. Very strategic, somewhat better for white but not too much. It is a natural choice for a Philidor player (yes I know, Philidor is better of the two).  There is a decent recently published books on it: "Side-Stepping Mainline Theory: Cut Down on Opening Study and Get a Middlegame You Are Familiar With". Another one is "Play 1.-d6 against everything".

Nigel Davies on Old Indian: https://chessimprover.com/the-old-indian-for-older-chess-players/
« Last Edit: 08/20/20 at 17:11:12 by Lauri Torni »  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #17 - 08/20/20 at 02:39:14
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In MNb's suggestion of the ...Bf5 Exchange that Cox uses, the open g-file is like the Rubinstein.
« Last Edit: 08/20/20 at 11:52:59 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #16 - 08/19/20 at 13:32:49
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This is an intriguing question that's hard to answer - many recommendations are not dull at all. Take the QGA for instance: White plays 3.e4 and play is very much like a lively Open Game (Scotch/Italian stuff). Or  or 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e4 and play can become irrational like a King's Gambit.
The Budapest can be met with 4.e4. It may not be best, but the low drawing rate suggests anything but dull play.
The Cambridge Springs allows the Exchange with ...Nbd7. Nobody who plays this as White will be annoyed by dullness.

I second the Keres Defense and especially 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ 3.Bd2 a5 4.Nc3 d5 5.Nf3 (5.a3) Nf6.combined with 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 d5 4.Nc3 Be7. This avoids the QG Exchange.
However I'd like to point out 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 (IM Cox even mentions ...Bf5 but 6.Bxf6 looks like a serious problem) 6.e3 Bf5 7.Qf3 Bg6 8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.Qxf6 gxf6. The snag is of course 6.Qc2 and the question is if you think Na6 7.e3 Nb4 8.Qb1 g6 9.Qd1 a5 10.a3 Na6 dull enough to your taste.

Laramonet wrote on 08/16/20 at 16:04:06:
I noticed you didn't like the QGD exchange but I would suggest reviewing Playing 1. d4 d5 by Ntirlis. The Exchange positions are interesting and the QGD with either c5 a la Kamnik or c6 (Aronian) are interesting.

The OP was asking for something dull, so anything interesting is to be avoided.
« Last Edit: 08/20/20 at 05:02:36 by MNb »  

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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #15 - 08/19/20 at 12:52:49
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Cambridge Springs is also very solid but fairly unexciting. In decent theoretical shape (see the Shankland chessable course).
Vary with the TMB perhaps.
  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #14 - 08/19/20 at 04:27:01
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LeeRoth wrote on 08/18/20 at 22:55:59:

One way to think about it:  Eingorn covers both the French and the Keres in 190 pages, while Davies does the same in a DVD.  Based on that, I’d say that there isn’t all that much theory. 
 
Actually Eingorn (2012) A Rock-Solid Chess Opening Repertoire for Black covers other white choices (e.g. the Sicilian Four Knights, English, etc.), so 1.e4 e6 is 83 pages and 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ is 43 pages. 
http://www.gambitbooks.com/pdfs/A_Rock-Solid_Chess_Opening_Repertoire_for_Black....

Also of interest is Eingorn (2006) Creative Chess Opening Preparation (no sample at gambitchess), which has some coverage of the same openings, but different lines (e.g. 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Be7 / 3...h6 in Creative vs. 3...c5 in Rock-Solid), and in complete games format. Eingorn admits in Rock-Solid that 2...Bb4+ 3.Bd2 is "the most problematic variation" (page 91).

And don't overlook Antic / Maksimovic (2014) The Modern Bogo 1.d4 e6 (476 pages), although I don't have this one. 
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/997.pdf

I wouldn't use the existence of a DVD as evidence that an opening hasn't much theory. People make single DVDs about all kinds of highly theoretical openings, like the Najdorf, or the Modern Benoni.
  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #13 - 08/19/20 at 03:05:45
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Thanks, that all makes sense. I haven't played it. If White doesn't play things like 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 often (not that that's so great for him), I guess even if White plays e4, you could eventually play ...d5 a lot of the time instead of the Hübner kind of stuff; then you really would be a bit closer to a French.
  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #12 - 08/18/20 at 22:55:59
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ReneDescartes wrote on 08/18/20 at 17:19:41:

About the Eingorn with 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ and 3.Nc3 c5--I see that Langrock, who wrote a book on the Rubinstein French, plays it, and there is a clear analogy to the Rubinstein in Black's pawn moves.


Exactly

Quote:
But doesn't it give White a lot of choices,


Not really.  In practice, you mostly see 3.Bd2.  One way to think about it:  Eingorn covers both the French and the Keres in 190 pages, while Davies does the same in a DVD.  Based on that, I’d say that there isn’t all that much theory.  

Quote:
. and don't these include  many variations where Black should probably go for a Hübner-like, completely-blocked center with ...c5, ...d6, and ....e5?


There is obviously no need to play this way.  

I couldn’t think of a perfect match for the OP’s criteria.  It’s hard to be dull but at the same time avoid maneuverIng, avoid blocked positions, attack the center, and limit White’s choices.  But the Keres-Eingorn is solid (if that is what is meant by dull), let’s Black name the variation (although there are transpositions), and provides opportunities to attack White’s center.  

There is also room for expansion.  For example, if 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3, the usual recommendation is 2..c5.  It seldom happens, but this does give White the possibility of 3.e4 with an Open Sicilian.  Instead the OP can play 2..d5 and head for a Lasker, having avoided the Nge2 Exchange.   

The biggest problem with the Keres-Eingorn is that it’s +/=.  But so is the Rubinstein.  And besides, equalizing wasn’t one of the criteria.   Wink
  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #11 - 08/18/20 at 21:54:31
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One way to achieve dullness is to play the same openings other IMs play. So I looked at the openings of black players 2400-2500. There's some fuzziness in the below numbers, because I didn't take transpositions into account at all. The percentages after 2.c4 use (22,868+10,894 =33,762) as the denominator.

55,319  1.d4
------
32,295  1...Nf6 (58.4%) 
14,073  1...d5 (25.4%) 
2,789  1...e6 (5.0%) 

22,868  1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 
------
4,667  2...e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 (13.8%) 
3,721  2...g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 (11.0%) 
2,396  2...c5 (7.1%) 
2,394  2...g6 3.Nc3 d5 (7.1%) 

10,894  1.d4 d5 2.c4 
------
5,945  2...c6 (17.6%) 
3,218  2...e6 (9.5%) 
1,376  2...dxc4 (4.1%) 

Of all these openings, the Slav is the most sound, the most dull, and the most popular at IM level. Could be a good choice. Also reasonable when you need to face a GM. And it will last a lifetime.
Edited:
Actually, the Nimzo might be more popular. The count of 3...Bb4 is lower because white doesn't always play 3.Nc3. There were 11,413 games that began 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 (33.8%). Also a great choice.


I was a little surprised the Benoni is equally as popular as the Grunfeld. That's definitely not true at the top level.

If you do achieve IM, you would need to replace your current 50% score against 2330-players with more like 65%. Call it 70% with white and 60% with black. Could an IM score 60% against you with the Slav, if you opened 1.d4? If not, as an IM yourself you might need an additional black defense for when you are paired down with black.
  
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Re: Looking for a dull repertoire against 1. d4
Reply #10 - 08/18/20 at 20:12:03
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The Nimzo isn't that dull, but the Nimzo/QGD combination is a good one.  

Still, it seemed to me that the original poster wanted something with more of a singular purpose, less plans (like the Fort Knox French).  Hence I might even recommend something like the Budapest or Stonewall Dutch, even though they don't often seem very "dull."  Sounds like the Stonewall would be too closed for the original poster, though.   

I'd say Queen's Gambit Accepted (deal with the IQP lines, or avoid as many as you can) or Budapest.
  
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