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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dvorkovich on cheating (Read 26769 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #33 - 08/31/20 at 11:30:36
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No problems.

Most of Fide regulations are gathered together anyway:
https://handbook.fide.com/

Have a nice day.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #32 - 08/31/20 at 05:29:33
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/30/20 at 17:02:21:
Jupp53 wrote on 08/30/20 at 07:44:36:
Never to forget: The behavior in the web influences the behavior in overall society.

You should post more often.

Thanks for the links to FIDE ac-regulations.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #31 - 08/30/20 at 17:02:21
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Jupp53 wrote on 08/30/20 at 07:44:36:
Never to forget: The behavior in the web influences the behavior in overall society.

You should post more often.
  
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cathexis
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #30 - 08/30/20 at 13:05:37
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Thank you for doing the work to post those links.

Appreciated
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #29 - 08/30/20 at 09:45:26
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Could a next document about anti-cheating be recommendations for major online chess platforms!? A framework for online play will always be needed and Fide hasn't exactly got a huge market share with their inhouse Fide arena project.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #28 - 08/30/20 at 09:27:41
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Hi.

Especially given recent discussions about Fide and what would constitute a sound process I would encourage taking a look at these. As far as I can tell they basically summarise the thoughts of the people involved in anti cheating at Fide. The way it looks to me, in some place you would like to see more written and in others things seem at least very thought out. Having only skimmed through so far I'll probably pick some parts to comment on later after a slow read through but not right now.

Anti-cheating guidelines 2014 (sort of a founding document):
https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/Anti%20Cheating%20Guidelines.pdf

Current anti-cheating regulations:
https://handbook.fide.com/files/handbook/ACCRegulations.pdf

Document about measures at tournaments:
https://handbook.fide.com/files/handbook/ACCProtectionMeasures.pdf

Have a nice day.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #27 - 08/30/20 at 07:44:36
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cathexis wrote on 08/29/20 at 12:58:05:


I continue to feel that the only formally defined chess, for both FIDE/USCF, etc. ratings, titles, and prizes, ought to be strict OTB play only in monitored tournaments with experienced, accountable Peer-Arbitration. But the reliability of what constitutes monitoring (its tools, etc.) and the public and accountable process of Peer-Arbitration is key. I recognize there are many ways to play a game of chess besides tournament play. But to combat cheating I think what I've suggested above is the surest path to follow.


There the problem stands with both feet in a dark, fluid, stinking crop of b***s***. Private sites don't give access to their judgement process and FIDE uses a private site for tournaments. Even on the own site there is no clear access to the way the evidence is processed.

Never to forget: The behavior in the web influences the behavior in onverall society.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #26 - 08/29/20 at 17:28:03
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There's not much discovery going on either.
  
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cathexis
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #25 - 08/29/20 at 12:58:05
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To try a summary of law by a non-lawyer, you can think of the legal process for criminal law as 3 things: 1. The Evidentiary & Discovery process. 2. The Adjudication process (the trial, etc.) 3. The Appellate process. (I realize you can quibble on that, but for discussion's sake). The REAL purpose of the Appellate process is to cover capriciousness, bias, or malice during the Adjudication process that may have resulted in an unfair trial or an unjust verdict. At least, that's my understanding of how it should work ideally. 

I googled the lostontime blog for myself and the obvious problem the blogger encountered was a lack of number 3, as detailed above. As much as I feel for the blogger, a privately operated web-site is not an essential Public Utility and so cannot be held accountable in the same manner (which the blogger as much as said). Nor should it be, for in my opinion that would open the door to government monitoring and interference that would imperil yet another of our diminishing personal liberties.  Sad

I continue to feel that the only formally defined chess, for both FIDE/USCF, etc. ratings, titles, and prizes, ought to be strict OTB play only in monitored tournaments with experienced, accountable Peer-Arbitration. But the reliability of what constitutes monitoring (its tools, etc.) and the public and accountable process of Peer-Arbitration is key. I recognize there are many ways to play a game of chess besides tournament play. But to combat cheating I think what I've suggested above is the surest path to follow.
  
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #24 - 08/29/20 at 02:00:14
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an ordinary chessplayer gave a link to lostontime. Chess Pub will not allow me to repost it as I have not posted enough.

I feel bad for lostontime . It was that same site that banned the player I was playing. Two things are clear :
  1. As in criminal justice it's better to let 10 suspects go than 
        convict an innocent person. Thus any cheating algorithm 
        should allow a lot of wiggle room.
  2. Access to the evidence must be allowed. 
Hope things are fine in Columbus. Have friends in Upper Arlington.
  
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cathexis
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #23 - 08/29/20 at 01:29:05
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No regrets, but decided to delete my post that occupied this particular reply you are reading as it was too much of a rant, even if sincerely felt.  It does not contribute to my growth as a player which was why I asked to join in the first place.
« Last Edit: 08/29/20 at 12:23:58 by cathexis »  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #22 - 08/28/20 at 06:05:07
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ernie wrote on 08/28/20 at 04:45:47:
Nobody should be convicted just from finding their DNA on a murder victim. What if their DNA was found on several victims ?
Serial killer, obviously. 

ernie wrote on 08/28/20 at 04:45:47:
No player will be penalized by a single game.
We shall see.

ernie wrote on 08/28/20 at 04:45:47:
Without controls cheating will become rife.
Controls are one thing. Controls that are not really controls are another thing. Maybe this avatar was cheating and was banished. Or maybe it was not cheating and was banished. But since you have only the information that it was banished, what are you to believe? That's one of the problems with a black box process. It conveniently protects the admins from any charges of incompetence, to say nothing of malice as cathexis is worried about. Well, someone not cheating, but banished anyway, has an unfortunate perspective on competence. But who is going to listen to someone banished for cheating? (I'm innocent! ... Sure, that's what all the guilty people say.) Since players know that some cheating is happening, they are bound to see every banishment as justice served. The more banishments, the "better" the job the admins must be doing. (See? The admins on this server don't put up with cheats!) It's not only players who are needing to be controlled. Did you see my link at reply #2?

  
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ernie
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #21 - 08/28/20 at 04:45:47
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Nobody should be convicted just from finding their DNA on a murder victim. What if their DNA was found on several victims ? No player will be penalized by a single game.
"Probability is virtually ubiquitous. It plays a role in almost all the sciences. It underpins much of the social sciences -" Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
I played many games with someone having an avatar on a chess server. Six months ago he remarkably improved. Naively I assumed he was studying openings. Our last game vanished. Discovered he had been banished. 
Without controls cheating will become rife.
  
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #20 - 08/27/20 at 18:19:12
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/27/20 at 17:01:04:
@MNb - Relating to DNA evidence, of course it's not 100% reliable and of course we don't reject it for being less than 100%. But is it literally the only piece of evidence against the accused? Like: we found some DNA on a murder victim, we matched it to you based on a database, you are going to jail. I know many people would say, "DNA, you did it", but I hope that in a court of law there would be additional evidence.

Yup. This is another reason why I'm skeptical (and indeed, this does not mean I'm automatically opposed).
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Dvorkovich on cheating
Reply #19 - 08/27/20 at 17:28:55
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hicetnunc wrote on 08/27/20 at 11:46:01:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 08/27/20 at 04:09:59:
(...) People get mesmerized by the large number of moves fed into the algorithm, and start to believe that the laws of large numbers apply. It's true in the computation of the algorithm sense, but in the legal sense it boils down to a single fact. And it's an indirect fact.


Why wouldn't the law of large numbers apply, if humans actually do play different moves than computers ? I mean, how is it different from estimating your odds of beating a much stronger player in a 2-games, vs. 6-games or 12 games match ?

I don't know about the legal aspect, but I don't find unreasonable to draw conclusions from a large enough # of moves/games provided your detection model is robust. The moves have been played, even if it was online.


Well, it's a lottery. If my odds of victory against Magnus Carlsen in a single game is 1%, then my odds of going 12-0 against Magnus Carlsen in a 12-game match is 0.01^^12. Yet, despite being highly unlikely, this is possible.

Everybody who runs a lottery knows you can't analyze the "fairness" of the lottery ex post facto based on the numbers drawn, nor on who won. In a pick-6 lottery, the numbers 1-2-3-4-5-6 are just as likely as any other single combination. If the brother of the guy who coded the lottery algorithm buys a lottery ticket, he is just as likely to win as any other single ticket-holder.

The only way to ensure the lottery is fair is by examining the equipment (or algorithm) before the game, holding the drawing in public, auditors observing the drawing of the numbers to make sure the equipment is actually used correctly, and then examining the equipment again after the game. The equipment is stored securely in between games, everything is audited all the time, an so on.

Online events want to skip any attempt at an audit, and use ex post facto logic to ban players. Fine. Do that. Just admit that it's a shambles, and don't pretend there's any real fairness to it.

Edited:
Fischer wins 6-0 against Taimanov.
Fischer wins 6-0 against Larsen.
Fischer wins 4-in-a-row to close out Petrosian.
Soviet counter-intelligence inspects the playing hall in Reykjavik. As they should.
  
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