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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon? (Read 21544 times)
fling
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #28 - 01/08/21 at 08:05:29
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Syzygy wrote on 01/07/21 at 21:57:44:


The line with 22...Red8 was already seen in the correspondence game Hatzl - Moza 2014, which ended in a draw. The game continued 23. Bc4 Rac8 24. b4! axb3 25. Bxb3 Qxa3 26. Qd3, when Moza narrowly managed to defend against White's initiative with 26...Bf8. I agree that this is probably Black's best bet against 10. h3. 

However, even if this entire variation is ultimately OK for Black, how should one meet 9. f3? The natural continuation 9...Bd7 10. Qd2 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 12. O-O-O! or 11...a5 12. h4! looks quite dangerous both practically and objectively.


I see, that is interesting, thanks for sharing that game! I am not a corr-player and only have a few sources for correspondence games (Ultra Corr, CB-online plus some others), in which I could not find the mentioned game in this line. Further, the AD is not my main line, but I keep interest in it as I occasionally end up in it because I have played 1...c5 as a reply to 1.c4, or from 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 (not my usual answer, as I my main option is the Kan).

Thanks for pointing out 9. f3 as a dangerous alternative, which is pretty natural, as is the move 9...Bd7. Is this variation a reason for why there are no or few corr-games with 10. h3 lately? 

Anyhow, I guess the critical continuation is 9...Nh5 10. Qd2, and it seems like Black has a decent game, choosing between 10...Qa5!? (which allows White to capture on c6 if he wishes) or capturing on d4 and playing ...Qa5 or maybe ...Be6 before that (which maybe can be said to be a more standard plan in the AD).

Edit: I just noticed that Shaw gives this line with 9. f3, and he recommends 9...Nh5 10. g3, with the comment that it's not clear what the knight is doing. This was also played in the game So-Mamedov, 2015. I think 10...Qa5!? looks best after that, as played in two email games, both ending in draws.
« Last Edit: 01/08/21 at 09:06:14 by fling »  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #27 - 01/07/21 at 21:57:44
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fling wrote on 01/07/21 at 12:18:18:
Lauri Torni wrote on 01/06/21 at 17:18:29:
Let's see

Mekhitarian, Krikor Sevag (2563) vs Guseinov, Gadir (2666)
Date:2020
1. Nf3 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. e4 c5 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Nc6 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Nc3 O-O 8. Be2 d6 9. O-O Bd7 10. h3 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 12. Qc2 a5 13. Rad1 a4 14. c5 Qa5 15. cxd6 exd6 16. a3 Rfe8 17. Bf3 Re6 18. Nd5 Bxd5 19. exd5 Ree8 20. Bc3 Qc5 21. Rfe1 Rxe1+ 22. Rxe1 Nxd5 23. Bxd5 Qxd5 24. Bxg7 Kxg7 25. Qc3+ Kg8 26. Re7 Qc6 27. Qf6 Rf8 28. h4 h5 29. g3 Qd5 30. Qf4 Rc8 31. Kh2 Kg7 32. Re4 Rc1 33. Qxc1 Qxe4 34. Qc3+ Qe5 35. Qb4 b5 36. Kg2 Qd5+ 37. Kg1 Qc5 38. Qf4 Qe5 39. Qb4 Kf6 40. Kg2 Ke6 41. Kg1 Kf5 42. Qd2 Kf6 43. Qb4 Ke7 44. Qd2 Kd7 45. Qb4 Qc5 46. Qf4 Qc4 47. Qf6 Qe6 48. Qd4 Qe1+ 49. Kg2 Qe5 50. Qd2 d5 51. Kf1 d4 52. Qd3 Kd6 53. Qf3 Qd5 54. Qf6+ Kc5 55. Qe7+ Kc4 56. Qb4+ Kd3 57. Kg1 Kc2 58. Qe7 d3 59. Qc7+ Kxb2 0-1

According to Stockfish 17.Bf3 is not best and leads to equality. Instead 17.Bd3/17.f3 and Stockfish prefers white, but the white advantage is not big.


As I see it, the big point in this variation is that after 17. f3, Black plays 17...d5!. Here the PV of both Leela and Stockfish 12 seems to be 18. e5 Nh5 19.f4 Ng3 20. Rfe1 Nf5 21. Bf2 d4 22. Ne4 Red8. What differs is the evaluation (Leela gives equality, Stockfish 12 a slight plus for White), but this variation seems fine for Black.

17. Bd3 b5!? seems to give Black decent chances for a complicated game. Leela gives it as equal, Stockfish 12 a slight plus for White. In practical play, I might choose White, but I wouldn't be afraid to go into this line as Black.


The line with 22...Red8 was already seen in the correspondence game Hatzl - Moza 2014, which ended in a draw. The game continued 23. Bc4 Rac8 24. b4! axb3 25. Bxb3 Qxa3 26. Qd3, when Moza narrowly managed to defend against White's initiative with 26...Bf8. I agree that this is probably Black's best bet against 10. h3. 

However, even if this entire variation is ultimately OK for Black, how should one meet 9. f3? The natural continuation 9...Bd7 10. Qd2 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 12. O-O-O! or 11...a5 12. h4! looks quite dangerous both practically and objectively.
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #26 - 01/07/21 at 12:18:18
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Lauri Torni wrote on 01/06/21 at 17:18:29:
Let's see

Mekhitarian, Krikor Sevag (2563) vs Guseinov, Gadir (2666)
Date:2020
1. Nf3 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. e4 c5 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Nc6 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Nc3 O-O 8. Be2 d6 9. O-O Bd7 10. h3 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 12. Qc2 a5 13. Rad1 a4 14. c5 Qa5 15. cxd6 exd6 16. a3 Rfe8 17. Bf3 Re6 18. Nd5 Bxd5 19. exd5 Ree8 20. Bc3 Qc5 21. Rfe1 Rxe1+ 22. Rxe1 Nxd5 23. Bxd5 Qxd5 24. Bxg7 Kxg7 25. Qc3+ Kg8 26. Re7 Qc6 27. Qf6 Rf8 28. h4 h5 29. g3 Qd5 30. Qf4 Rc8 31. Kh2 Kg7 32. Re4 Rc1 33. Qxc1 Qxe4 34. Qc3+ Qe5 35. Qb4 b5 36. Kg2 Qd5+ 37. Kg1 Qc5 38. Qf4 Qe5 39. Qb4 Kf6 40. Kg2 Ke6 41. Kg1 Kf5 42. Qd2 Kf6 43. Qb4 Ke7 44. Qd2 Kd7 45. Qb4 Qc5 46. Qf4 Qc4 47. Qf6 Qe6 48. Qd4 Qe1+ 49. Kg2 Qe5 50. Qd2 d5 51. Kf1 d4 52. Qd3 Kd6 53. Qf3 Qd5 54. Qf6+ Kc5 55. Qe7+ Kc4 56. Qb4+ Kd3 57. Kg1 Kc2 58. Qe7 d3 59. Qc7+ Kxb2 0-1

According to Stockfish 17.Bf3 is not best and leads to equality. Instead 17.Bd3/17.f3 and Stockfish prefers white, but the white advantage is not big.


As I see it, the big point in this variation is that after 17. f3, Black plays 17...d5!. Here the PV of both Leela and Stockfish 12 seems to be 18. e5 Nh5 19.f4 Ng3 20. Rfe1 Nf5 21. Bf2 d4 22. Ne4 Red8. What differs is the evaluation (Leela gives equality, Stockfish 12 a slight plus for White), but this variation seems fine for Black.

17. Bd3 b5!? seems to give Black decent chances for a complicated game. Leela gives it as equal, Stockfish 12 a slight plus for White. In practical play, I might choose White, but I wouldn't be afraid to go into this line as Black.
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #25 - 01/07/21 at 07:02:01
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Stigma wrote on 01/06/21 at 14:07:11:
To successfully combine the Forintos variation with the Maroczy you need to be very flexible and well-rounded.

That makes sense, as it's the impossibility to turn the Maroczy into a sharp game that I dislike. Ironically the most promising ways for White to meet the Forintos are the solid positional ones with castling kingside, a2-a4 and a knight on d5 ....
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #24 - 01/07/21 at 05:01:47
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For someone who plays the Sicilian for the first time, does it make more sense to go for the Hyper move order or the Nc6 move order?

- With Nc6 we allow the Rossolimo but we can play 2...Nf6 against Alapin and don't need a seperate line against the Morra.
- With the hyper we allow the Delayed Alapin 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 so we also have to play sub-optimal against the regular Alapin.

Rossolimo seems pretty hard/annoying. What's your opinion?
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #23 - 01/06/21 at 17:18:29
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Let's see

Mekhitarian, Krikor Sevag (2563) vs Guseinov, Gadir (2666)
Date:2020
1. Nf3 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. e4 c5 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Nc6 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Nc3 O-O 8. Be2 d6 9. O-O Bd7 10. h3 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 12. Qc2 a5 13. Rad1 a4 14. c5 Qa5 15. cxd6 exd6 16. a3 Rfe8 17. Bf3 Re6 18. Nd5 Bxd5 19. exd5 Ree8 20. Bc3 Qc5 21. Rfe1 Rxe1+ 22. Rxe1 Nxd5 23. Bxd5 Qxd5 24. Bxg7 Kxg7 25. Qc3+ Kg8 26. Re7 Qc6 27. Qf6 Rf8 28. h4 h5 29. g3 Qd5 30. Qf4 Rc8 31. Kh2 Kg7 32. Re4 Rc1 33. Qxc1 Qxe4 34. Qc3+ Qe5 35. Qb4 b5 36. Kg2 Qd5+ 37. Kg1 Qc5 38. Qf4 Qe5 39. Qb4 Kf6 40. Kg2 Ke6 41. Kg1 Kf5 42. Qd2 Kf6 43. Qb4 Ke7 44. Qd2 Kd7 45. Qb4 Qc5 46. Qf4 Qc4 47. Qf6 Qe6 48. Qd4 Qe1+ 49. Kg2 Qe5 50. Qd2 d5 51. Kf1 d4 52. Qd3 Kd6 53. Qf3 Qd5 54. Qf6+ Kc5 55. Qe7+ Kc4 56. Qb4+ Kd3 57. Kg1 Kc2 58. Qe7 d3 59. Qc7+ Kxb2 0-1

According to Stockfish 17.Bf3 is not best and leads to equality. Instead 17.Bd3/17.f3 and Stockfish prefers white, but the white advantage is not big.
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #22 - 01/06/21 at 15:41:21
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Lauri Torni wrote on 01/06/21 at 14:15:46:
P.S.  Sgircea, Silvia-Raluca - Lie, Espen  Kragero Resort Chess 2020 round 07

1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 c5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. e4 d6 7. Be2 Bg7 8. Be3 O-O 9. O-O Bd7 10. h3 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 12. Qc2 a5 13. Rad1 Nd7 14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. Bg4 b6 16. Bxd7 Qxd7 17. e5 Qe6 18. exd6 Qxc4 19. dxe7 Rfe8 20. Rfe1 Ra7 21. b3 Qh4 22. Ne4 Bxe4 23. Qxe4 ½-½

17.e5 was a mistake. Stockfish and Comodo Dragon give 17.a4 (or 17.Rfe1) with a clear advantage (more than +1.0). Engine evaluations are perhaps not to be fully trusted in these positions, but I definitely would like to be white here.


Yes, I agree, 17. a4 seems better. As a side note, I have a comment in my file saying it is somewhat funny whenever a commentator gives a move ?! but does not provide an alternative (the game has been commented here at Chesspub). 

I think Black's best bet is 13...a4!? as in Mekhitarian-Guseinov, 2020. Interestingly, Mekhitarian has repeated this line once after that game, although in blitz.

Also interesting is that I can't find any correspondence game from 2020 with the position after 10. h3 Bd7.
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #21 - 01/06/21 at 15:17:43
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Am I correct in thinking that for a Hyper Accelerated Dragon player it isn't practical to go for 3...Nf6 vs the Alapin because we need something else vs the Delayed Alapin? 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #20 - 01/06/21 at 14:15:46
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P.S.  Sgircea, Silvia-Raluca - Lie, Espen  Kragero Resort Chess 2020 round 07

1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 c5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. e4 d6 7. Be2 Bg7 8. Be3 O-O 9. O-O Bd7 10. h3 Nxd4 11. Bxd4 Bc6 12. Qc2 a5 13. Rad1 Nd7 14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. Bg4 b6 16. Bxd7 Qxd7 17. e5 Qe6 18. exd6 Qxc4 19. dxe7 Rfe8 20. Rfe1 Ra7 21. b3 Qh4 22. Ne4 Bxe4 23. Qxe4 ½-½

17.e5 was a mistake. Stockfish and Comodo Dragon give 17.a4 (or 17.Rfe1) with a clear advantage (more than +1.0). Engine evaluations are perhaps not to be fully trusted in these positions, but I definitely would like to be white here.
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #19 - 01/06/21 at 14:07:11
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MNb wrote on 01/06/21 at 12:50:10:

For some reason nobody recommends the transposition 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 O-O 8.Bb3 d6 9.f3 (or 9.h3) Bd7. Still this is exactly the same as 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Bc4 Nc6 9.Bb3 Bd7, which White rarely plays. Are fans of the AD so scared of the Jugoslav Attack that they even want to avoid an irregular version?
The concrete problem with White's move order is the Forintos Variation 10.Qd2 (there is 10.h4) Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5. White often avoids this in the regular Dragon by postpoining the move Bb3.
What I understand from the AD philosophy is that Black wants to play an improved Dragon. The Forintos Variation can been seen as an improvement on the Topalov Variation, where Black already is committed to the move ...Rc8.

Incidentally, this is Nguyen's recommendation in his Chessable course (only against 9.f3). So at least someone is recommending it.

But as I wrote earlier, I have been loath to actually play it because some of the lines in the course become razor-sharp and irrational, with Black's king seemingly vulnerable.

Maybe this shows the basic difference in attitude between pure Dragon players and most Accelerated Dragon players, even if it's the same basic pawn structure: The former thrive on concrete theory, calculation and risk, while the latter naturally get used to a much more positional game once White avoids the pitfalls and plays a 5.Nc3 main line or Maroczy. To successfully combine the Forintos variation with the Maroczy you need to be very flexible and well-rounded.

(I do enjoy sharp chess most of the time btw., but I have used other Sicilians and the Pirc to get that. The AD is meant to be a solid alternative in my repertoire).
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #18 - 01/06/21 at 12:53:22
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The Maroczy bind is very annoying - I love to play it as white.

AD is, however, good to have in the repertoire for 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3/N1e2 g6. This is very equal theoretically.  And black laughs at white who thought you were unintentionally move-ordered  from your beloved Najdorf. Gelfand, e.g., has this philosophy. 

« Last Edit: 01/06/21 at 14:14:25 by Lauri Torni »  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #17 - 01/06/21 at 12:50:10
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doefmat wrote on 01/06/21 at 08:00:08:
What setup do play? Qa5 vs 7.Bc4?

For some reason nobody recommends the transposition 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Bc4 O-O 8.Bb3 d6 9.f3 (or 9.h3) Bd7. Still this is exactly the same as 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Bc4 Nc6 9.Bb3 Bd7, which White rarely plays. Are fans of the AD so scared of the Jugoslav Attack that they even want to avoid an irregular version?
The concrete problem with White's move order is the Forintos Variation 10.Qd2 (there is 10.h4) Nxd4 11.Bxd4 b5. White often avoids this in the regular Dragon by postpoining the move Bb3.
What I understand from the AD philosophy is that Black wants to play an improved Dragon. The Forintos Variation can been seen as an improvement on the Topalov Variation, where Black already is committed to the move ...Rc8.

At the other hand 7...Qa5 8.O-O O-O 9.Bb3 d6 10.h3 transposes to an inferior version of the 6.h3 Dragon: Bg7 7.Be3 O-O 8.Bc4 Nc6 9.Bb3 and Black has better than setups with ...Qa5. White has a very decent other option with 9.Nb3 Qc7 10.Re1 trying to get a superior version of the Classical Dragon with 9.Re1 (the bishop will go back to f1). Simple minded as I am I think 7...Qa5 going against the AD philosophy.

In addition to Lauri underneath: for several years I have combined the AD with the Kalashnikov, thus avoiding the Maroczy. It's a lot of work though.
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #16 - 01/06/21 at 11:12:07
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doefmat wrote on 01/06/21 at 08:00:08:

What setup do play? Qa5 vs 7.Bc4?


To be honest I still don't have one settled repertoire choice there. I have dabbled in both the modern 7...0-0 8.Bb3 Re8!? which is the choice on ChessMood, the traditional 7...Qa5, and Panjwani's risky and still not well-known system with a hybrid Dragon/Taimanov setup (Panjwani also gives 7...Qa5 as a more solid alternative).

But I don't really know any of these nearly as well as I should. I've been thinking of moving on to other Sicilians or even to 1...e5, but if I decide to stick with the AD I will definitely put in some work here.
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #15 - 01/06/21 at 08:00:08
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Stigma wrote on 01/05/21 at 19:42:28:
This Sicilian has been covered in lots of good books and DVDs over the years, including the aforementioned Starting Out book by Greet

You might want to start with Nguyen's course since it's relatively short, but he does choose a very sharp defence to the 5.Nc3 main lines, where you really need to remember the theory. Personally I have studied the course but swapped out that particular chapter for a more solid setup..


What setup do play? Qa5 vs 7.Bc4?
  
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Re: Why do coaches recommend the Accelerated Dragon?
Reply #14 - 01/06/21 at 01:30:14
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Syzygy wrote on 01/06/21 at 00:55:23:
Unfortunately, with the 5...Bg7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Nc3 O-O 8. Be2 d6 move-order Black has to deal with 9. f3 (intending Shaw's O-O-O plan) and 9. O-O Bd7 10. h3!, which scores heavily for White.

The second line puts me in mind of a game Sgircea-Lie from Chess Publishing last year, which led to "total equality."
  
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