Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov (Read 8679 times)
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #18 - 09/27/21 at 12:10:17
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 09/17/21 at 11:34:06:
SWJediknight wrote on 09/16/21 at 15:21:15:
I'd just been thinking, one underrated contribution to chess from Sveshnikov might be the modern popularity of the old Italian Game lines with d4 followed by e5, specifically the Giuoco Piano (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5) and to a lesser extent the Two Knights Defence (3...Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5).  He often reached both of these lines via the Scotch Gambit, and they form part of a coherent opening repertoire that is set to be recommended in Gawain Jones's Coffeehouse Repertoire. 

The Giuoco Piano line was long dismissed as only leading to equality with few positive chances for White, but it has increasingly been used even by the top GMs in recent years.  While Sveshnikov didn't invent these lines, he was a rare GM who regularly used them in his games even when they weren't highly regarded, and contributed a number of ideas.


Very true, he won many interesting games in these lines


I really enjoyed playing these lines as a teenager, and Dzinzi has been analysing and recommending them for years.  Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2928
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #17 - 09/17/21 at 11:34:06
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 09/16/21 at 15:21:15:
I'd just been thinking, one underrated contribution to chess from Sveshnikov might be the modern popularity of the old Italian Game lines with d4 followed by e5, specifically the Giuoco Piano (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5) and to a lesser extent the Two Knights Defence (3...Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5).  He often reached both of these lines via the Scotch Gambit, and they form part of a coherent opening repertoire that is set to be recommended in Gawain Jones's Coffeehouse Repertoire. 

The Giuoco Piano line was long dismissed as only leading to equality with few positive chances for White, but it has increasingly been used even by the top GMs in recent years.  While Sveshnikov didn't invent these lines, he was a rare GM who regularly used them in his games even when they weren't highly regarded, and contributed a number of ideas.


Very true, he won many interesting games in these lines
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 916
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #16 - 09/16/21 at 15:21:15
Post Tools
I'd just been thinking, one underrated contribution to chess from Sveshnikov might be the modern popularity of the old Italian Game lines with d4 followed by e5, specifically the Giuoco Piano (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5) and to a lesser extent the Two Knights Defence (3...Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5).  He often reached both of these lines via the Scotch Gambit, and they form part of a coherent opening repertoire that is set to be recommended in Gawain Jones's Coffeehouse Repertoire. 

The Giuoco Piano line was long dismissed as only leading to equality with few positive chances for White, but it has increasingly been used even by the top GMs in recent years.  While Sveshnikov didn't invent these lines, he was a rare GM who regularly used them in his games even when they weren't highly regarded, and contributed a number of ideas.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2928
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #15 - 08/29/21 at 13:29:01
Post Tools
Sad news
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2343
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #14 - 08/28/21 at 20:16:32
Post Tools
Yes, I was also baffled to see this called the Martinez. That struck me too. ‘Huh? Who??!’ I don’t know of any well-known old-time GM called Martínez. 

I suspect a lot of people don’t actually have a name for the d3 Lopez as it is perhaps an ‘approach’ rather than a system with distinctive, different moves. A slower approach, but otherwise typical stuff for the Ruy. I just call this ‘the d3 Ruy’ when discussing this with a friend. 

I’m no chess historian particularly though, unlike some here, and I’m interested in what you guys all think.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #13 - 08/28/21 at 18:28:03
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 08/28/21 at 14:15:05:
6 d3 seems to have been first played by Kolisch in 1861, but I grew up knowing it as the Pilnik variation, since this Argentinean GM played it numerous times at the height of career in the 1950s (he even reached the Candidates in 1956). Chessbase has 27 of his games with 6 d3.

I too knew of it as the Pilnik variation; specifically I recall that I. A. Horowitz called it that in his thick 1960s tome Chess Openings:  Theory and Practice.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 966
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #12 - 08/28/21 at 14:15:05
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 08/22/21 at 14:00:59:
I do agree with MNb about the naming of chess openings often being a random process.

I have my own "bȇtes noires" in this respect, e.g. some websites insist on calling the 4...Nd7 varuation of the Caro-Kann the "Steinitz variation", on the basis of no evidence that I can find. 

Another one that annoys me is the "Bayonet Attack"  in the Classical King's Indian; traditionally, a bayonet attack (in chess) was an attack by a single pawn (e.g. g2-g4-g5 in many open Sicilians), rather than part of the advance of a qualitative majority, as in the King's Indian, where there is little resemblance to a bayonet, as far as I can see. (I suspect an old Foxy video by Danny King might be to blame here).

Getting back to the Kalashnikov, I suggest there can be little doubt that the theoretical foundations of the modern handling of this line were indeed established by Sveshnikov, in his practice and his writings, e.g. in his brilliant article in New In Chess Yearbook 27 (1992).

But I think it's worth recognising that Sveshnikov himself, (like Fischer) a keen student of 19th century chess, was always scrupuluous to refer to 4...e5 as the La Bourdonnais variation.

MNb: 1) as far as I can ascertain, Bohak only once played 4...e5 5 Nb5 d6 and after 6 Nb1-c3 he immediately switched into B33 with 6...Nf6;
2) Pils sems to have only started playing 4...e5 5 Nb5 d6 in 1982; prior to that he had played one theoretically important game with 5...a6 6 Nd6+ Bxd6 7 Qxd6 Qf6, strategically-speaking a completely different concept.

There are other predecessors, of course, but I think it's very hard to argue that Sveshnikov does not deserve the greatest credit for constructing a whole opening system based on 4...e5 5 Nb5 d6.


Do we have a topic somewhere here on the naming of openings? I just came across another annoying one today; the Chessable course on the Ruy Lopez by Grandelius calls the line 3...a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 0-0 Be7 6 d3 the "Martinez variation". On what basis? Where the heck are these names being generated?!

6 d3 seems to have been first played by Kolisch in 1861, but I grew up knowing it as the Pilnik variation, since this Argentinean GM played it numerous times at the height of career in the 1950s (he even reached the Candidates in 1956). Chessbase has 27 of his games with 6 d3.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2343
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #11 - 08/22/21 at 23:02:08
Post Tools
I can remember the Russian Sveshnikov article (probably from 1988). Read many times. 

In the interests of history then:

At that time, when the Kalashnikov (neo-Sveshnikov) was very young, the two key points were:

a)
v 6.N1c3 blacks responded with ...b5 and Nge7. Not Nf6, but the other square! That was key, otherwise it is not a new and different line.
b)
v. 6.c4 the idea was to play ...Be7 and get ...Bg5 in quickly to swap bishops. Perhaps even using ...h6 to support it.

Things have now changed, as we might expect over the decades. Two major changes:

a)
...Be7 has largely replaced ...Nge7. I am not sure ...nge7 was ever fully and clearly 'refuted' to plus over minus rather than plus equals, but I wouldn't bet my house on it. 
b) Some sharp early ...f5 lines were introduced. 

See Tony Rotella's excellent book for coverage of these ideas. (author = 'TonyRo' here at chesspub).

Regarding van der Wiel and the name, I half remember that too. Strong player, but that perhaps not his finest moment. Was it just a throw away comment that someone took seriously? Real pity it caught on - having Kalashnikov books on the shelf at home is about as happy as having Semkov's 'Kill KID' there. No, not impressing the ladies there.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1977
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #10 - 08/22/21 at 15:22:28
Post Tools
I have to agree with Bibs and Paddy about the ‘Kalashnikov’. And as a cordial gun-hater I wish it was (still) called the (neo-)Sveshnikov! But the whole question of whether one could or should try to effect name change when a name has stuck is a moot, if fascinating, one, and I certainly don’t have an answer. I wonder whether the modern treatment of the Kalashnikov with an X-ray bishop at g7 iso e7 will end up acquiring a name … 

And yes, let’s keep it friendly, as Bibs says. Logic, sure, but warmheartedness never goes amiss …
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 966
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #9 - 08/22/21 at 14:00:59
Post Tools
I do agree with MNb about the naming of chess openings often being a random process.

I have my own "bȇtes noires" in this respect, e.g. some websites insist on calling the 4...Nd7 varuation of the Caro-Kann the "Steinitz variation", on the basis of no evidence that I can find. 

Another one that annoys me is the "Bayonet Attack"  in the Classical King's Indian; traditionally, a bayonet attack (in chess) was an attack by a single pawn (e.g. g2-g4-g5 in many open Sicilians), rather than part of the advance of a qualitative majority, as in the King's Indian, where there is little resemblance to a bayonet, as far as I can see. (I suspect an old Foxy video by Danny King might be to blame here).

Getting back to the Kalashnikov, I suggest there can be little doubt that the theoretical foundations of the modern handling of this line were indeed established by Sveshnikov, in his practice and his writings, e.g. in his brilliant article in New In Chess Yearbook 27 (1992).

But I think it's worth recognising that Sveshnikov himself, (like Fischer) a keen student of 19th century chess, was always scrupuluous to refer to 4...e5 as the La Bourdonnais variation.

MNb: 1) as far as I can ascertain, Bohak only once played 4...e5 5 Nb5 d6 and after 6 Nb1-c3 he immediately switched into B33 with 6...Nf6;
2) Pils sems to have only started playing 4...e5 5 Nb5 d6 in 1982; prior to that he had played one theoretically important game with 5...a6 6 Nd6+ Bxd6 7 Qxd6 Qf6, strategically-speaking a completely different concept.

There are other predecessors, of course, but I think it's very hard to argue that Sveshnikov does not deserve the greatest credit for constructing a whole opening system based on 4...e5 5 Nb5 d6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2343
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #8 - 08/22/21 at 09:44:14
Post Tools
@MnB

Is it really necessary to write in such a snide way so often? 
You come across in your posts like an angry old man who shouts at his shopping bag on buses. 

Particularly on such a thread as this.
 
Let’s play nicely. Think in terms of 'discussion' rather than 'argument'. 

If chess makes you this angry and unhappy, try another hobby. Fishing, golf, embroidery. Tend an allotment perhaps. Cabbages.
« Last Edit: 08/22/21 at 11:20:06 by Bibs »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #7 - 08/22/21 at 07:07:56
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 08/21/21 at 01:51:15:
In terms of nomenclature, I really believe that established names are unhelpful.

But you argue for "..... are unjust". Indeed nomenclature isn't fair to GM Timoscenko. It was GM Sveshnkov who popularized 8...b5 outside of the USSR at the end of the 1960's and beyond the Iron Curtain in 1977. That's how 5...e5 got its name.
Another chessplayer who has reason to complain is IM Henz Wirthenson. At least GM Timoscenko's contributions always have been recognized, at least in The Netherlands since the late 1970's. Young talents like GM Van der Wiel started to play 5...e5 and 8...b5 that early. The latter is responsible for the name Kalashnikov.

Bibs wrote on 08/21/21 at 01:51:15:
The Kalashnikov on the other hand really was primarily the work of Sveshnikov.

Incorrect. GM Sveshnikov started to play it in 1987. Corr. chess player Janko Bohak had played it with success between 1970 and 1975 and IM Pils in the early 1980's. The first was (and is) simply unknown and the latter not taken seriously. So it's very "unhelpful" according to your own argument to name it after the greaqt Russian/Latvian GM.

It would be a bit silly to call the name Cunningham Defense "unhelpful". Everybody knows it's 3...Be7 in the King's Gambit. Still WCh Euwe pioneered the modern treatment. The difference is that the great Dutchman never made a fuzz about it. WCh Euwe made essential contributions to many more openings than GM TImoscenko. At least the name Tsjeljabinsk is regular in former USSR countries.

Nomenclature of chess openings is a random process. So there are many examples of "unjust" names. Yet another example is the topographical disaster 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3. It was invented and pioneered by a Swede in Sweden. But dead diplomats don't complain in public.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 966
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #6 - 08/22/21 at 00:37:57
Post Tools
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2343
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #5 - 08/21/21 at 01:51:15
Post Tools
RIP
Read lots of his stuff. About French Advance, c3 Alapin and the Kalashnikov. His big yellow bible of the Alapin is a good work. 

In terms of nomenclature, I really believe that established names are unhelpful. What we know as the Pelikan or Sveshnikov looks to be better known as the Chelyabinsk. Timoschenko looks really hard done by. (And he is plainly very aggrieved as one reads in his hefty tome on this line). 

The Kalashnikov on the other hand really was primarily the work of Sveshnikov. Ideally THIS would be called the Sveshnikov. I remember Bob Wade showing a group of us at a UK junior squad training camp an article by Sveshnikov. Probably summer of 1988. His new idea - a short article in Russian. The early games were his, and he is on record (somewhere) saying he believed this was a better version. 

Sad when such players leave us early. Respect to him.
« Last Edit: 08/21/21 at 09:30:25 by Bibs »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: R.I.P - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov
Reply #4 - 08/20/21 at 06:53:32
Post Tools
GM Sveshnikov broke through at about the same time as the others you mentioned.
Btw WCh Karpov also belongs to that generation.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo