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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m (Read 9798 times)
CanadianClub
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #23 - 03/21/22 at 15:38:46
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https://youtube.076.ne.jp/watch?v=HeMewtsxsEU

a video of Sam Shankland explaining some things about this positions
  
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #22 - 03/21/22 at 02:22:33
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kylemeister wrote on 03/20/22 at 23:45:31:
I would have thought that it has pretty much always been the main line.

In fact I don't really remember any moves besides 5.h3, other than the trap line 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 d5 5.Bf4 dxe4 6.Nxe4 Qa5+ 7.c3?? Qf5 -+

I see in my working database, at one time I looked at a few other moves: five games for 5.h3 and one game each for 5.exd5, 5.Qe2, 5.Be3, 5.Bf4.

A.Volchok - Z.Sarosy, corr Olympiad 1997
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bf4 dxe4 6.Nxe4 Qa5+ 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.Bc4 Nf6 9.h3 Qf5 10.hxg4 Qxf4 11.Bxf7+ Kf8 12.Be6 Nbd7 13.Qe2 Qc7 14.Ne5 1-0
Source: Chess Life (1997)
  
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #21 - 03/20/22 at 23:45:31
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TopNotch wrote on 02/02/22 at 00:36:14:

I was doing a lot of maintenance on my White repertoire recently, in preparation for a return to tournament chess, and was genuinely surprised at how difficult it was to refute the Caro-Modern: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 d5 5.h3 Nf6!?

As an aside, I was rather surprised to see that the latest 1 e4 ... update appends an exclam to 5. h3 and says, "For good reason this modest prophylactic move has become the main line."  I would have thought that it has pretty much always been the main line.



  
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MartinC
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #20 - 02/04/22 at 11:24:02
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Leela/SF14 seem to vaguely like going 6 g4!? in that position instead of f4. 

Definitely not nonsense, not that white is short of 'not nonsense' approaches against the Pirc Smiley
  
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #19 - 02/03/22 at 22:22:18
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MartinC wrote on 02/03/22 at 10:48:09:
You can even play about with delaying 3 Nf3 with 3 h3!? - then trying to slide into various Be3 (and/or f4 or g4) set ups vs the Pirc.


1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.h3 0-0 6.f4 Is Christof Sielecki's approach from Keep it Simple: 1.e4, I remain unconvinced though, nor was I impressed by the LTR Pirc collaboration between himself and Gorny. 
  

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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #18 - 02/03/22 at 19:04:46
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That doesn't amount to much. After 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.h3 d6 4.Nc3 (or 4.Be3 Nf6 5.Nc3) Nf6 5.f4 is an Austrian Attack after wasting a tempo on a pretty useless move. At the other hand 5.Nf3 transposes to a well known and hardly feared variation.
  

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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #17 - 02/03/22 at 10:48:09
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You can even play about with delaying 3 Nf3 with 3 h3!? - then trying to slide into various Be3 (and/or f4 or g4) set ups vs the Pirc.
  
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #16 - 02/02/22 at 22:45:14
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/02/22 at 20:30:39:

No, not that. 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c6 4.c4 d5 and now: 5.cxd5 cxd5 is a c3-Sicilian. 5.exd5 cxd5 is a Panov-Botvinnik Caro-Kann. 5.e5 Bg4 is what 4.h3 is designed to avoid. All of these are just a little bit wrong versions for white. For some reason the database statistics are terrible for black but I can't believe it.

One thing about 5. cxd5 cxd5 6. e5 is that (unlike some older sources) the 2020 ECO had it as leading to +=.  Evidently it was last addressed in Chess Publishing in May 2021 (Carlsen-Nakamura).
  
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #15 - 02/02/22 at 20:52:52
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/02/22 at 20:30:39:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 is a good move order, provided you have an answer to 3...d6. I used to play 4.Be2 Nf6 (most other moves are answered by 5.c4) 5.Nc3 reaching the Classical Pirc, it's a little played out but still fine if white is not allergic to a draw. Shaw goes for 4.Bc4.

And yes, 3...c6 4.h3(!) d5 5.e5(!) is the idea. I played this a few times, but never got to play 6.c4 because my opponents kept playing 5...c5? 6.dxc5 Nc6 7.Bb5 (or worse). One guy played it against me three times! I know he was using Soltis's book on ...g6, but I looked and didn't see 5...c5? in there. It's a mystery where they got it. If 6.c4 happens I don't know how much white has objectively, but in this cross between a Modern, an Advance Caro-Kann, and a QGA (if black plays ...d5xc4), it just seems nice for white. Certainly more to play for than my then-usual Classical Pirc.

Another question here is 3.Nf3 c6 4.h3 4...d6. A Classical player will not mind, e.g. 4...d6 5.Be2 Nf6 6.Nc3. However a 4.Bc4 player might feel move ordered, e.g. 4...d6 5.Bc4 Nf6 6.Qe2 d5.

Isolani wrote on 02/02/22 at 16:33:49:
But may be more annoying for black would be 4.c4

No, not that. 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c6 4.c4 d5 and now: 5.cxd5 cxd5 is a c3-Sicilian. 5.exd5 cxd5 is a Panov-Botvinnik Caro-Kann. 5.e5 Bg4 is what 4.h3 is designed to avoid. All of these are just a little bit wrong versions for white. For some reason the database statistics are terrible for black but I can't believe it.


Why are they a 'little bit wrong' makes perfect practical sense to transpose the game to an entirely different opening where chances are high the opponent will lack experience to draw on. Granted the options mentioned may not be theoretically the most challenging, they are however sound and reliable.
  

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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #14 - 02/02/22 at 20:30:39
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1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 is a good move order, provided you have an answer to 3...d6. I used to play 4.Be2 Nf6 (most other moves are answered by 5.c4) 5.Nc3 reaching the Classical Pirc, it's a little played out but still fine if white is not allergic to a draw. Shaw goes for 4.Bc4.

And yes, 3...c6 4.h3(!) d5 5.e5(!) is the idea. I played this a few times, but never got to play 6.c4 because my opponents kept playing 5...c5? 6.dxc5 Nc6 7.Bb5 (or worse). One guy played it against me three times! I know he was using Soltis's book on ...g6, but I looked and didn't see 5...c5? in there. It's a mystery where they got it. If 6.c4 happens I don't know how much white has objectively, but in this cross between a Modern, an Advance Caro-Kann, and a QGA (if black plays ...d5xc4), it just seems nice for white. Certainly more to play for than my then-usual Classical Pirc.

Another question here is 3.Nf3 c6 4.h3 4...d6. A Classical player will not mind, e.g. 4...d6 5.Be2 Nf6 6.Nc3. However a 4.Bc4 player might feel move ordered, e.g. 4...d6 5.Bc4 Nf6 6.Qe2 d5.

Isolani wrote on 02/02/22 at 16:33:49:
But may be more annoying for black would be 4.c4

No, not that. 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c6 4.c4 d5 and now: 5.cxd5 cxd5 is a c3-Sicilian. 5.exd5 cxd5 is a Panov-Botvinnik Caro-Kann. 5.e5 Bg4 is what 4.h3 is designed to avoid. All of these are just a little bit wrong versions for white. For some reason the database statistics are terrible for black but I can't believe it.
  
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #13 - 02/02/22 at 19:45:30
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Isolani wrote on 02/02/22 at 16:33:49:
TopNotch wrote on 02/02/22 at 00:36:14:


I was doing a lot of maintenance on my White repertoire recently, in preparation for a return to tournament chess, and was genuinely surprised at how difficult it was to refute the Caro-Modern: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 d5 5.h3 Nf6!?    



May be it's a naive question, but couldn't you play NF3 first?
J. Show recommends it and after 3..c6 then 4.h3 d5 5.e5 with ideas of  c4 at some point.
But may be more annoying for black would be 4.c4 wich looks a n inferior Averbakh with a pawn already on c6.
So black could be tempted to play d6 and to avoid the c6 and d5 stuff.
Does black have other decent choices?


Your post is a bit unclear so before trying to answer it I will first try to clarify what we are talking about for curious readers. I presume you mean altering the move-order with 1. e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 This has subtle pros and cons but is a perfectly fine choice if it's already part of one's repertoire. I have even used that move-order myself on occasion.

The slight problem though is that I play the 2 Knights Variation against The Caro-Kann, meaning the main tabiya I indicated earlier cannot be easily avoided: 1.e4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3 g6 4.d4 Bg7 5.h3 Nf6 and we have arrived at our destination. Smiley 
  

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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #12 - 02/02/22 at 16:33:49
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TopNotch wrote on 02/02/22 at 00:36:14:


I was doing a lot of maintenance on my White repertoire recently, in preparation for a return to tournament chess, and was genuinely surprised at how difficult it was to refute the Caro-Modern: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 d5 5.h3 Nf6!?    



May be it's a naive question, but couldn't you play NF3 first?
J. Show recommends it and after 3..c6 then 4.h3 d5 5.e5 with ideas of  c4 at some point.
But may be more annoying for black would be 4.c4 wich looks a n inferior Averbakh with a pawn already on c6.
So black could be tempted to play d6 and to avoid the c6 and d5 stuff.
Does black have other decent choices?
  
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #11 - 02/02/22 at 16:05:34
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Is the Gurgenidze really as bad as computers say it is, or is this a "Stockfish hates space disadvantages" type situation? I have always had kind of a soft spot for structures akin to those mentioned by TopNotch, e.g. 3.Nc3 c6 4.Nf3 d5 5.h3 dxe4 6.Nxe4 Nf6 7.Nxf6+ exf6 or even 5...Nf6 right away as mentioned, but the Gurgenidze stuff looked kind of depressing relative to the last time I looked at it way back in the 2005-2008 range.  Grin
  
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #10 - 02/02/22 at 08:28:18
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In that case apologies — the “!?” is mine, not Bologan’s. To my patzer’s eye it seems surprising that, with one piece developed, Black’s best move should involve putting the queen on the white bishop’s diagonal. Shows how much I know. For what it’s worth, Soltis recommended 5…dxe4.
  
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Re: Opening rep the modern defence vs modern move by m
Reply #9 - 02/02/22 at 01:25:04
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Straggler wrote on 02/01/22 at 16:42:16:
I was referring to 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Be3, when  4...d6 is recommended by Lakdawala and Norwood but "complete rubbish against 5.f4!" according to Tiger. Soltis and Bologan recommend 4...d5 anyway, when I don't much like Black's position after 5.f3 -- though Bologan analyses 5...Qb6!?, with which he has a big plus score.

5...Qb6 is however an "old book move."  For instance it was portrayed as leading to equality in the 1997 edition of ECO, then as leading to += in the 2002 edition (with the main line following Adams-Leko, Tilburg '96), then as leading to equality in the 2020 edition (with the main line following ... Adams-Leko, Tilburg '96).
  
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