Normal Topic When you no longer recognize your opening (Read 3489 times)
cathexis
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Re: When you no longer recognize your opening
Reply #9 - 01/21/24 at 13:36:25
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You mean a labyrinth where all others are lost and destroyed? I would agree.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: When you no longer recognize your opening
Reply #8 - 01/19/24 at 15:13:59
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The repertoire of Theseus  Smiley
  

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Lauri Torni
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Re: When you no longer recognize your opening
Reply #7 - 01/18/24 at 11:09:41
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Well, I really feel the pain as black

My openings as black used to be

Against d4:  Benko gambit (practically refuted - opponents know it much better today and there are many challenging lines) I switched to Nimzo + Vienna/Ragozin

Against d4: french Winawer 7.- 0-0 (practically refuted, 7.-Qc7 is too chaotic for me) I switched to 3.Nc3 Nf6 - I don't like it much. Moreover, white has new promising sacrificial lines after 3.e5. The advance used to  be fun, not anymore. I consider ditching the french too  Sad  Perhaps in favor of 1.-e4 e5 

As white I see no dramatic changes. I have always varied between 1.d4, 1.c4 and1.Nf3. 
I am comfortable with the white pieces.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Re: When you no longer recognize your opening
Reply #6 - 01/17/24 at 18:50:48
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FreeRepublic wrote on 01/17/24 at 15:18:19:
Black has had better results with 6...Qb6 than with 6...e6 in human play. I think forcing the knight to move takes the edge off the game, which is probably a good thing for Black.

An historical bit: in his Sozin book from the beginning of the century, Mikhail Golubev wrote, "Black does not encounter great problems in the variation 6...Qb6, but he has plenty of small ones and it is high time White learned how to turn them to good account. I believe that the quite favourable statistics for Black in the Benko Variation are due to the fact that 'White' Sozin players pay, as a rule, much more (if not all!) of their attention to more fascinating variations with ...e6, and in practical 6...Qb6 games Black is often better prepared."

I notice that the ECO from 20 years later didn't appear to show a path to advantage against 6...Qb6. (Nor against 6...Bd7, by the way. I think the late IM Danny Kopec called that the Pseudo-Dragon, but there are also non-dragonish possibilities.)
« Last Edit: 01/17/24 at 20:50:33 by kylemeister »  
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Kerangali
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Re: When you no longer recognize your opening
Reply #5 - 01/17/24 at 18:00:03
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@FreeRepublic: Thanks for great insights, will seriously consider 6.Bc4 Qb6 for Black!

@ReneDescartes: not sure that shift in openings is just fashion, maybe deeper trends. For instance, if you're playing the Grunfeld with Black in strong opens, ~ 66% games will be with early f3 or h4, most of the rest will be 1.Nf3 (because you're tagged as a Grunfeld player), leaving less than 10% mainlines. You have to be ready for that, yet it doesn't make "old" theory less relevant/dangerous. Maintaining  a Grünfeld repertoire becomes asymmetric: more and more work for Black, less and less for White, who can pick up among various new lines. Also, it is not uncommon that well-trained & well-prepared youngsters take you on with a computer novelty on a main line, I sorely remember 1900 Greeks playing whole games like GMs. This leads you to be more fuzzy and less preparable in your openings, e.g. QGD/Tarrasch/Ragozin style instead of Grunfeld. Another shift with White is to search for headstarts in equal but fresh positions, Sadler has a good case for that with his Caro-Kann on his Road To Silicon Improvement youtube channel. Another aspect of the shift is that many parts of "old", formerly-established theory are now obsolete: like the races for tempo in d4 openings (to borrow from other posts), or the new lines in the Advance French, in my (maybe shortsighted) view rendering all former discussions with a3 vs Be2 systems rather obsolete. I feel a shift in openings not because of fashion or laziness, but because of computer+human evaluations (many more games played nowaday) making parts of established theory irrelevant. Opening-wise, we live on the edge of computer discoveries like on the edge of a flame burning a match, but it's a flame that seems to burn forever ancient theory, I wouldn't call that fashion.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: When you no longer recognize your opening
Reply #4 - 01/17/24 at 15:28:34
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Is it theory, you, or fashion that has changed most? A lot of the changes cited seem due to fashion. OK, the Marshall can kill the game now at high levels, but do you think your opponent will really know it well enough to do that? If you're not playing correspondence and mostly playing OTB in Swiss tournaments with brief preparation times, the Winawer French as Black is just as good as it was. It's still sharp, but so what? Your opponent won't have memorized a GM Rep book either, and you'll face the full-blown Poisoned Pawn more rarely than before, probably for the same reason of fashion!

I have changed my repertoire over the years, but I've done so mostly within the same openings to limit the need for studying early deviations. As Black I used to play 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6, but now I play 3...c5 4.exd5 exd5!?. However, the KIA and Exchange, not to mention the Wing Gambit, 2.b3, etc., did not change much.

Still, the changes can be extremely disorienting after a break. As Black we face so many more White fianchetto lines than in previous decades!
« Last Edit: 01/18/24 at 05:44:38 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: When you no longer recognize your opening
Reply #3 - 01/17/24 at 15:18:19
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Thanks for the entire response.

Kerangali wrote on 01/17/24 at 11:11:14:
So, is the whole idea of Bc4 Qb6 to force/induce Nb3 before playing Qc7, and does Black win something in the bargain?


If White were to play Nd4 later, Black wins a tempo. Black takes two moves (...Qb6 and ...Qc7) to get his queen to c7 - one lost tempo. White takes two moves to get his knight back to d4 (Nb3-d4) - two tempos lost. That's it in a nutshell.

White often makes do with a knight on b3. If White really likes a knight on b3, he can claim to be a tempo up, with Black wasting a tempo with Qb6-c7. However it seems that b3 is not a great square for the knight. Compared to 6Bc4 e6, White has to find other ways to arrange his pieces. As you pointed out, Black will often revert to usual play with ...e6 ...Be7 and so on.

After 6Bc4 Qb6, White can consider 7Nb3, 7Nxc6, 7Ndb5, 7N(de)e2, 7Be3. All moves change the character of the game somewhat from 6Bc4 e6.

Black can play 6Bc4 e6, but the Velimirovic attack is dangerous: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bc4 e6 7. Be3 Be7 8.Qe2 a6 9. O-O-O O-O 10Bb3. Cheparinov introduces (for me at least) 10Nxc6!?. Black can delay Be7 to accelerate queen side play. Then Cheparinov often prefers an eventual Bd3 to Bb3. The idea is not new but his assessment tilts more to White than before. As this is less often played, it might still deserve another look.

Black has had better results with 6...Qb6 than with 6...e6 in human play. I think forcing the knight to move takes the edge off the game, which is probably a good thing for Black.
  
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Re: When you no longer recognize your opening
Reply #2 - 01/17/24 at 11:11:14
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Interesting posts!
1) re Laramonet: Did the same as you, playing tournaments till Covid but now half-retired & train pupils. I played 1.e4 but had to look into 1.d4, 1.c4 and even 1.b3. What works well is the Selecki KISS 1.d4 (mostly following Nf3/g3/Bg2/0-0, with some tweaks like an early g3 against ...e6 or ...f5, leading to += or workable =) and the e3-poison (Nf3, e3, c4 in some order). 
2) re FreeRepublic: with Black my main e4 answer is the Taimanov Sicilian, but after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 I really don't like the c3 and g3 systems, while the main lines are more or less OK with some tweaking (e.g. Classical Scheveningen against Be2/Be3 instead of the risky Bb4). To thwart that, I diversified in several ways against 1.e4:
1) 1...e5 against stronger players and 1..g6 against lesser.
- For 1...g6 I used Dan Fernandez inspiratonal book (set of lines rather than repertoire), but couldn't resolve to play it  in long games. It's almost as if Black wants to feel the wind of defeat against any opponent, looking for adrenalin rather than points.
- for 1...e5 I used several sources, mostly Ntirlis, Bologan, but also Lokander which has nice ideas. I also needed to dwelve into 1...e5 as Black for my pupîls. Was afraid of massive theory (including King's Gambit etc) but now I feel there's more critical theory (what you need to know in order to survive the opening) in the Najdorf or Dragon Sicilian than in the whole 1.e4 e5 for Black. For the Spanish, I followed Ntirlis with the Breyer but never managed to get one on board, pure waste of time, YMMV. I feel Black has to be serious and learn a show-stopper (either Marshall or Berlin), plus the antis or (in my case) play a quick deviation like the Deferred Steinitz (a6 and d6) or quick g6 or Ne7 systems. They are very workable, I'm glad noone asked me to look into the Open Spanish, looks quite complex Smiley  Also, the Schallopp (1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 Nf6) and Nf6 Vienna (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6) are very ambitious (esp. The Schallopp with extensive analysis on Wahls site) but can be quite complex, there are more practical systems like the Ne7 KG (threatening quick ...d5) and the ...Nc6 Vienna. The 2Knights Italian (1.e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bc4 Nf6) is quite interesting for Black (including Ng5 lines), but in 99% games Whites don't bother and follow up with d3/c3.
2) finally, for my own needs I completed the Taimanov Sicilian with the Classical Sicilian: afaik no forcing draws, no dangerous antis, less critical lines than Nadjorf (it's a tradeoff: 1 super critical line that splits in 4-5 systems versus more critical lines in the Najdorf), both players must be very careful, at least it works well for me. I don't know well Bc4 Qb6 for Black and I have a question regarding your statement that Bc4 Qb6 should be preferred to Bc4 e6: to me after solid moves like Bc4 Qb6 Nb3, Black always ends up regrouping with a6, e6, Qc7 in some order (my source is the Cheparinov course on modern chess + Shankland short & sweet). So, is the whole idea of Bc4 Qb6 to force/induce Nb3 before playing Qc7, and does Black win something in the bargain?
Cutting short a long post,
K.   
« Last Edit: 01/17/24 at 12:52:13 by Kerangali »  
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Laramonet
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Re: When you no longer recognize your opening
Reply #1 - 01/16/24 at 20:18:49
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I certainly agree. In line with the poll raised in another thread, I think specialising in one main reply to e4 and one to d4 can help. Within the one opening, you could then vary your lines while still deepening your understanding.
However, this is more of a challenge when playing White I think. It's what led to me moving away from e4. Having flirted with the KIA, I took up the English, inspired by Marin. For the last couple of years I've played d4 but followed Sielecki's recipe for mostly using g3. This perhaps helps to minimise the vagaries of theory, at least somewhat.
  
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When you no longer recognize your opening
01/16/24 at 16:11:25
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Changing opening theory occurs piecemeal but the accumulated changes may be sweeping. You may no longer recognize your favorite opening. Here are some examples.

Winawer French and 3...Nf6 against the Tarrash. This combination was very popular. Today, one might find the Winawer too sharp and, against the Tarrasch, prefer 3...c5 4exd5 Qxd5. The French now seems to be a different opening.

In the Classical Sicilian, 6Bg5 e6 7Qd2 Be7 (rapid development) was popular. While I still think it is still possible, I now think it leads to too many critical positions. Instead, 6Bg5 e6 7Qd2 a6 should be preferred. It's the same story with 6Bc4 e6, now 6Bc4 Qb6. Earlier 1e5 c5 2Nf3 Nc6 3Bb5 should probably be replaced by 1e4 c5 2Nf3 d6 3Bb5ch Nd7. It's now a different opening.

In the King's Indian Defense a player might have chosen the Mar Del Plata, 6...Nc6 against the Saemish, and the Panno (or ...Nbd7) against the fianchetto. I think these are still possible. However, for various reasons, a player might now choose to play differently in each case.

Changing times may have affected your White repertoire also. At one time one might have played the Ruy Lopez automatically, anticipating closed lines. Today, the Marshall and the Berlin may have you avoiding the Ruy Lopez entirely.

What to do if you looked forward to entering Sicilian main lines, but now avoid them?

The changing chess landscape does highlight the richness of the game. Yet it can also leave your head spinning.
  
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