Poll
Poll Question: How should we use algebraic notation in chess variants?
bars   pie

Solution #1: one uppercase letter    
  1 (20.0%)
Solution #2: two uppercase letters    
  0 (0.0%)
Solution #3: one or two uppercase letters    
  1 (20.0%)
Solution #4: use coordinate notation instead    
  0 (0.0%)
Another solution not mentioned above    
  1 (20.0%)
No opinion or I just want to see the results    
  2 (40.0%)




Total votes: 5
« Created by: Marc Benford on: 07/28/26 at 21:49:06 »
Normal Topic How should we use algebraic notation in variants? (Read 382 times)
Gene.M
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Re: How should we use algebraic notation in variants?
Reply #2 - Today at 00:09:57
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@Marc Benford:
I would suggest you adopt your solutions #2 and #4 as a pair; except also go a small bit further...

____________________________________
Context Dependence Rots:  Consider XSAN


All chess notations represent trade-offs, benefits and drawbacks.

The SAN used in regular chess is good in some ways, but SAN's drawbacks are substantial and not merely minor. During tournaments, maybe 30% of amateur players have an error in the scoresheet they submit to the Organizer. Often the error can be corrected, but in 20% of these cases error cannot be corrected.
SAN's proneness to errors extends into replay while reading moves from a book. Just one example is the reader moving the wrong color pawn when replaying the move notation 'b4'.

SAN is error prone because SAN suffers from its need for Context for accurate interpretation. Neither you nor I know whether 'Nxe4' is a White versus Black knight: to know we must have further contextual information, like whose turn it is, or the Origin square (instead of just the Destination square).

SAN really failed me when I started to replay gamescores from chess960 games (FischerRandom, chess9LX, or the dubious moniker "Free Style", whatever name). Turns out our habits for quick interpretation or translation of chess moves are marinated in the context of the one traditional start setup position.

Therefore, I feel that chess deserves to have the option of a notation which is "Context Independent", to the extreme of being fully replayable in reverse, from the end position to the starting setup position.

An enhanced LAN notation feels like a good candidate initially. 'b3-b4' is definitely a White move, and we know it was the pawn's second move.
'Nf6xe4' is more informative than 'Nxe4'. 'Nf6xe4' is probably a Black knight, but this notation still lacks certainty. Plus we have no idea which type of piece was captured.

'13... Nf6xBe4' tells us the knight's color was Black (the two extra dots ".."), and that the captured piece was a white bishop ("xB"). However, when you replay a whole game this way, you realize that you miss having the Destination square given early in the notated move. Yet 'NxBe4-f6', or 'Nxf6-e4xB', are both awkward. So,...

Let us try '<' an alternative to the '-' for captures, and give yourself one minute to get used to it. Further, let us adopt the cleaner ':' instead of yet another lowercase letter 'x' (as David Bronstein did in 'Zurich 1953), and tag a '/' onto the end:


[A]  'N:e4<f6/B'  -  "Knight takes on square e4, coming from square f6, captures a white bishop".
Now the more important Destination square occurs before the Origin square.

This notation comes close to being the best Context Independent notation that is still human-friendly (unless someone can post a better design?).
I like how the four sorta-separate sections of the notation are well-delimited for the human eye to parse:
N e4 f6 B    ( : < / )

But [A] fails to tell us the color of the knight or bishop. Relying on a verbose move number plus triple-dots is a context dependency, in addition to being verbose in many situations.
So, let's try a solution which uses Uppercase versus lowercase letters more strategically: all white pieces use Uppercase letters, while all black pieces use lowercase letters.
This casing strategy is slightly helped by our previous replacement of the lowercase 'x' by ':'


[B]  'n:e4<f6/B'  -  "Black knight takes on e4, from f6, captures white bishop."

Good, now we are there except for one remaining problem: 'b' for a black bishop could confuse the eye with the 'b' column:
'bb2<d4', compared to say the clear 'qb2<d4'.
I have no perfect answer to the 'b'=black_bishop problem, but I can offer the best available solution that I chose: I use 'V' & 'v', instead of 'B' & 'b'. The idea is that, in English, a "vicar" is a "substitute for a bishop" in the Catholic church, in the majority of dictionaries. (Pronounced "VIK-err".)  So we tweak 'bb2<d4' to instead be 'vb2<d4'.


[C]  'Re5<1'  where we infer the column'e' because no override is present, is better than the unnecessarily redundant  'Re5<e1'.


Seems a shame that chess notation evolved to give sequence numbers to move-pairs (pairs-of-moves) instead of to true 'moves'. All white moves should be odd-numbered, and where occasionally needed, all black moves would be even-numbered.


XSAN:
I call the notation described above 'XSAN' ("eXstended Standard Algebraic Notation").


_______________________
Conclusion:
  'Context Independent' notation should be available (XSAN?)


A simple software program can easily validate XSAN, and translate XSAN into SAN, or into LAN etc.
However, much more complicated software is needed to validate SAN, and to translate SAN into any other notation.
XSAN can be a central hub for all chess notations (P-K4 Descriptive, SAN, LAN, Coordinate, etc).
Instead of needing one software to translate SAN into LAN, and another to translate SAN into Coordinate or Descriptive, we would need only a software to translate SAN into XSAN.

For the creative piece types in your chess variants, you could use a two-letter pair for each piece. Later, when you want to use software that can only digest piece names being single letters, the XSAN hub could be valuable.

Bottom line, chess deserves to have a "Context Independent" notation option.


Thanks.
GeneM
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Re: How should we use algebraic notation in variants?
Reply #1 - 08/07/26 at 15:39:21
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I vote for solution #1.

Piece names can vary by language, so even if you choose names with unambiguous first letters in some arbitrary language, there may be ambiguity in some other language. This already happens in standard chess. In English, King and Knight both start with K. Nowadays it is usual to use N for Knight, although I have seen S (from the German Springer). Thus it already happens that the piece letter doesn't have to be the first letter of the piece name.

Piece letters are also used for constructing FENs, so multi-character representations are undesirable there.

The usual way is for the parser to have an internal array of pieces, and allow the user to specify an array of letters to represent them. The same array is used for both notation and fen. See how pgn-extract and xboard/winboard do it. It works well. The piece letters shouldn't matter, as long as they make sense to the user and there is a way to notify the parser. Also, although I haven't looked at it in detail, ICC and FICS have been handling variants for a long time, might be worthwhile checking there.

One of the many things I like about Tarrasch Chess GUI is that it can act as a pgn notation translator: open a pgn with piece letters in one language, then change language, and the piece letters are updated.
  
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How should we use algebraic notation in variants?
07/28/26 at 21:49:06
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How should we use algebraic notation in chess variants with very many different types of pieces?

Solution #1: Give one unique uppercase letter to each type of piece. The first problem is that many pieces start with the same letter (for example, aanca/alfil/alibaba/amazon/antelope/archbishop, camel/cannon/centaur/chancellor/crab, general/giraffe/gnu/grasshopper/gryphon), so either most pieces would have a letter that is not the first letter of their names (such as N for the knight), or we would have to invent completely new names for most pieces (we wouldn't be able to use the names that they are usually known by). The second problem is that this solution wouldn't work if there are more than 26 different types of pieces, since there are only 26 letters in the alphabet.

Solution #2: Give two uppercase letters to each type of piece. For example, QU would be the queen, RO would be the rook, BI would be the bishop. I assume that both letters would need to be uppercase, otherwise we might confuse them with the letters that represent the file (a to h), which are lowercase.

Solution #3: Give two uppercase letters to each type of piece, except for the most common types of pieces which should have only one uppercase letter. For example, Q would be the Queen, R would be the rook, B would be the bishop, AL would be the alfil, AM would be the amazon, CA would be the camel, CH would be the chancellor.

Solution #4: Don't use algebraic notation. Use coordinate notation instead. For example, instead of saying 1. Nf3, we would say 1. g1-f3.

Share your opinion.
What is the best solution?
What are the pros and cons of each solution?
Are there other solutions that I didn't consider?
  
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