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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Controversial London System (Read 107900 times)
Sandman
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #120 - 09/15/11 at 14:39:20
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How does the London compare to other openings (systems) such as colle, torre, KIA, English Botvinnik, or things like the catalan?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #119 - 09/14/11 at 15:17:45
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I highly probably have mentioned this before:

1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 Nc6 and evt. 5...cxd4 either transposes to the Exchange Variation of the Caro-Kann (3.exd5 cxd5 not 4.c4) or the Exchange Variation of the Slav. Obviously the question is if Black has better, especially by postponing the exchange on d4.
Obviously the conclusion is that the London cannot be as good as the Queen's Gambit 2.c4.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #118 - 09/14/11 at 14:00:43
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Nietzsche wrote on 06/08/06 at 22:42:56:
Ok. I am getting confused.

Thanks to the new 'Winning with the London" (which sounded almost oxymoronic to me), we're discussing several lines based on d4 and Bf4, and whether white can show an edge.  But is anyone suggesting these lines can offer as much as a standard Queens Gambit?  Or as much as, say, the English?  

I'm enjoying this thread and I appreciate all the lines being thrown around, but at the end of it are we trying to show that the London offers White just as much as the more conventional setups?  Or are we simply trying to show that black cannot equalize by force and white should understand the ensuing middlegame positions better?  I've always thought the London made no real claims at a theoretical advantage but offers a freepass to the middlegame and gives practical advantages OTB.   

Basically, I'm peering into my future and I see a copy of "Winning with the London" being mailed to me from Amazon.com. 
I study the lines and find the book well researched and interesting.  Then I ultimately decide that I had a better life in the English and put the book down and go back to studying theory.  

Bottom line: Can the London offer white as much as standard lines , more than the other 'basic systems' or are we playing into thoretical equality but with a "home field advantage"?  

Sincerely,
Nietzsche  

ps - I want to be clear that I'm not trying to disparage the London.  I actually enjoy playing safe, solid, and "boring" openings.  I grew up playing the KIA and I still like Lasker's Defense in the QGD (and neither of these offer much of anything in the critical lines).  {Honestly, I even enjoy playing in Symmetrical English lines.}   Huh

I'm trying to get a feel for the "simple to play" versus "offers an edge" trade-off.  Simple systems tend to make life easier for both players as they don't offer opponents difficult problems to solve but do offer the practioner a way to reach playable middlegames they're comfortable with AND have a social life at the same time.  Which is not such a bad tradeoff, really.  
So, is the London more than the Colle or the Torre?  Or is it more like a Catalan or reversed Grunfeld?  Or is anyone arguing it is as good as mainline Queen's Gambits?  What are these variations being offered as proof for?     




This was a great thought-provoking post and I’d like to hear the thoughts on this as well. Anyone have anything to share?   Undecided
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #117 - 12/20/07 at 14:40:22
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Greetings,

As I'm not a subscriber, you'll have to forgive me if I post something with which Eric has already dealt.

On a more general note, I was wondering, is it advisable to "fight fire with fire"?

In other words, answer a "system" with a "system" - in this case, say, the Sicilian Kan - with a view to "move-ordering" the opponent so that their resultant setup is less (least) effective?

In my own games as Black, I've either played Dragons or Reversed Exchange QGDs - having exchanged off the white-squared bishops with Bf5 v Bd3 and Nh5 to get the Bf4/g3 (after White castles king-side!).

The latter opening I've found to be more effective - though perhaps my opponents haven't played the positions as well as they could/should - but then, neither have I.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #116 - 12/19/07 at 23:32:50
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In his last update Eric Prie looks at some Winants games beginning with 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 Nc6 and concludes that Black has equality. I was a bit surprised as the same idea in the Albin's is not impressive according to my sources. Exactly the same position can arise:
A) 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 Nc6 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.Be3 iso Winants' 5.Nc3.
B) 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.Nc3 exd4 4.Qxd4
White has done extremely well in this variation: 6½/8. My books give the only black win, a corr game by Keres.
4...Nc6 5.Qxd5 Be6 6.Qb5 a6 7.Qa4
a) 7...Bb4 (Keres' move) 8.e3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 Nf6 10.Nf3 Ne4 11.Qc2 Vincent-Krudde, Groningen 1988, Bf5 12.Bd3 Nxf2 13.Bxf5 Nxh1 14.Ba3 with great compensation.
b) 7...Bc5 8.Nf3 Nf6 9.Bg5 h6 10.Bh4 g5 11.Rd1 Husek-Cizmar, SVK 2001. Black missed his chance: Bd7 12.Bg3 Nd4! So White must try 10.Rd1 Bd7 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 12.Ne4 Qe7 13.Nxc5 Qxc5 but Black might have decent compensation thanks to his lead in development.
Will this justify 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 as well or should London practicioners turn back to 2.Nf3 ?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #115 - 06/18/07 at 10:22:32
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TopNotch wrote on 06/17/07 at 23:24:57:
I don't think you will find much detail in previous threads about this, for that you need to be a Dpawn Specials subscriber.

I would have thought it was too risky playing the London nowadays and not subscribing - look what happened to London expert Stefanova against Matthieu Cornette in March, Matthieu just followed Eric's analysis and got a winning position straight out of the opening with Black! Wink
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #114 - 06/17/07 at 23:29:23
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/16/07 at 09:37:47:
Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:
2.Bf4!? This is the modern way of playing the London with white having an opening advantage against 3...c5.

Hasn't Eric (Prié) shown that this is good for Black? Wink

Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:
I’m also a fan of the idea of   1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 d5 3.e3 c5!? 4.dxc5!? ( I've won big with this one...)  4... Qa5+ 5.Nc3 etc..

Again, according to the ChessPub Guide "giving up the center can seldom be right in the London System", and Eric showed that 4...e6 is just good for Black, or am I missing something?


Not only 4...e6 is good for Black, but also 4...Nc6.

Tops Smiley
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #113 - 06/17/07 at 23:24:57
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Paul123 wrote on 06/17/07 at 15:48:22:
Hmmm...I didn't know about Prie's analysis.. Although I do rememeber something here about an early Qb6.

No grumps here. If it was looked at in earlier threads..cool. I'll  find it. 

I will assume Kamsky's  5 Bb5 was an attempt to answer Prie's work.  That would explain the eratic move


I don't think you will find much detail in previous threads about this, for that you need to be a Dpawn Specials subscriber. 
 
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #112 - 06/17/07 at 15:48:22
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Hmmm...I didn't know about Prie's analysis.. Although I do rememeber something here about an early Qb6.

No grumps here. If it was looked at in earlier threads..cool. I'll  find it. 

I will assume Kamsky's  5 Bb5 was an attempt to answer Prie's work.  That would explain the eratic move
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #111 - 06/16/07 at 14:40:01
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agree Mr Kosten.

Unfortunately it appears that a number of posts not just here in this thread but elsewhere refer to topics already covered in some depth. Nothing personal intended, so no individuals should get in a grump.

Perhaps members could use the search function first, or perhaps just potter through past postings by Prie or whomever depending on section,  then post. Perhaps buy the appropriate books, chug thru, then post with queries based on this. 

Prie's stuff plus London system book pretty well covers all at the moment. read 'em! Wink

kind regards

Bibs



  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #110 - 06/16/07 at 09:37:47
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Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:
2.Bf4!? This is the modern way of playing the London with white having an opening advantage against 3...c5.

Hasn't Eric (Prié) shown that this is good for Black? Wink

Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:
I’m also a fan of the idea of   1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 d5 3.e3 c5!? 4.dxc5!? ( I've won big with this one...)  4... Qa5+ 5.Nc3 etc..

Again, according to the ChessPub Guide "giving up the center can seldom be right in the London System", and Eric showed that 4...e6 is just good for Black, or am I missing something?
« Last Edit: 06/16/07 at 11:36:58 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #109 - 06/16/07 at 06:06:09
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Paul123 wrote on 06/16/07 at 00:44:00:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 2.Bf4!? This is the modern way of playing the London with white having an opening advantage against 3...c5. ( if  3…Bf5!?  then I like  4. f3!? with c4 soon to follow…but this is for another thread)   

2... d5 3.e3 c5   "the standard 4.c3 gets white into the middle game with chances"  4...Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Qb3   (Black’s queen will be misplaced on the queen side.)
   


Isn't that just the main line of the London, when it's White's queen that seems a bit misplaced on the queenside?  After 6...c4 I already prefer Black (though it's probably only equal).  For instance, 7.Qc2 Bf5! shows the great job White's queen is doing on that side of the board.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #108 - 06/16/07 at 00:44:00
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Since we were discussing “systems” on another thread... And me being an amateur or patzer…(you decide. Just don’t tell me!)   

Kamsky recently played a strange game in the Candidates Match vs Gelfand

(1) Kamsky (2705) - Gelfand (2733) [D02]
FIDE candidates Matches Elista, Kalmykia Russia, 08.06.2007
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 Nc6 5.Bb5?! cxd4 6.exd4 Qa5+ 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.0–0 e6 9.h3 Bxf3 10.Qxf3 Rc8 11.Rfd1 Be7 12.Bf1 0–0 13.Ne2 b5 14.c3 b4 15.Qd3 Qb6 16.cxb4 Nxb4 17.Qb3 Ne4 18.a3 Nc6 19.Qxb6 axb6 20.b4 g5 21.Be3 Nd6 22.Nc1 f5 23.Nb3 Nc4 24.b5 Nd8 25.a4 Nb7 26.Bc1 f4 27.Be2 Bb4 28.Ra2 Nbd6 29.Bd3 Ra8 30.Kf1 Nxb5 31.Rc2 Nbd6 32.Bd2 Rxa4 33.Bxb4 Rxb4 34.Nc1 Nf5 35.Bxf5 Rxf5 36.Nd3 Rb3 37.Ra2 Rf7 38.Ke2 Nd6 39.Rda1 Nb5 40.Kd2 Nxd4 41.Rc1 Rb5 42.Rc8+ Rf8 43.Rc7 Ra5 44.Rb2 Rf7 45.Rc8+ Kg7 46.Ne5 Rb7 47.h4 gxh4 48.Rb4 Ra2+ 49.Kd3 Nf5 50.Rxf4 Rba7 51.Rc3 R7a3 52.Rxa3 Rxa3+ 53.Ke2 b5 54.Rg4+ Kf6 55.Nd3 Ra8 56.Kd2 e5 57.Rb4 e4 58.Nc5 Rg8 0–1


1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 2.Bf4!? This is the modern way of playing the London with white having an opening advantage against 3...c5. ( if  3…Bf5!?  then I like  4. f3!? with c4 soon to follow…but this is for another thread)   

2... d5 3.e3 c5   "the standard 4.c3 gets white into the middle game with chances"  4...Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Qb3   (Black’s queen will be misplaced on the queen side.)

I’m also a fan of the idea of   1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 d5 3.e3 c5!? 4.dxc5!? ( I've won big with this one...)  4... Qa5+ 5.Nc3 etc.. 
I’ll stop here because I want to highlight Kamsky’s  5th move


Kamsky played 5.Bb5?!   What is the point of this?   IMO This does nothing to bolster the pawn at d4 (i.e. the center .... We all know It is very critical in the London to keep the center strong and intact, then start play on the wings...Kamsky new this! What was he doing? I can’t figure it out…  
5...cxd4 6.exd4 Qa5+!? 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.0-0 8...e6 9.h3 Bxf3 10.Qxf3 Rc8 11.Rfd1 The pawn is weak and white must defend it 11...Be7 12.Bf1 0-0 and Black has equalized. 
Even with 8.h3 Bxf3 9.Qxf3 e6 10.0-0 Be7 11.Bxc6+ bxc6 12.Qd3 0-0 13.Rfe1 Qb4 14.Rab1 c5 the pawn at d4 is weak and white must attend to it... 
5.Bb5?! clearly isn't a good move. Does someone see something I don’t?    
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #107 - 08/07/06 at 13:44:21
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In the ebook I could not find yet games to d4 d5 2 Bf4 (Nf3) e6 3.Nf3 (Bf4) Bd6.

I saw that this move order is recommanded by argaad in the book "meeting d4". I used to play this line in Blitz and my resultas were rather poor.

What is the general assessment in this line?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #106 - 06/29/06 at 20:29:27
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The discussion on 

8.Bd3  Nh5

is continued at the following forum:

" Re: A new look at the London System" 

I deal with that line in a discussion with Tafl.  Its a creative, fresh, and perhaps dynamic way of dealing with it.


BladezII

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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #105 - 06/08/06 at 22:42:56
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Ok. I am getting confused.

Thanks to the new 'Winning with the London" (which sounded almost oxymoronic to me), we're discussing several lines based on d4 and Bf4, and whether white can show an edge.  But is anyone suggesting these lines can offer as much as a standard Queens Gambit?  Or as much as, say, the English?   

I'm enjoying this thread and I appreciate all the lines being thrown around, but at the end of it are we trying to show that the London offers White just as much as the more conventional setups?  Or are we simply trying to show that black cannot equalize by force and white should understand the ensuing middlegame positions better?  I've always thought the London made no real claims at a theoretical advantage but offers a freepass to the middlegame and gives practical advantages OTB.   

Basically, I'm peering into my future and I see a copy of "Winning with the London" being mailed to me from Amazon.com. 
I study the lines and find the book well researched and interesting.  Then I ultimately decide that I had a better life in the English and put the book down and go back to studying theory.   

Bottom line: Can the London offer white as much as standard lines , more than the other 'basic systems' or are we playing into thoretical equality but with a "home field advantage"?   

Sincerely,
Nietzsche   

ps - I want to be clear that I'm not trying to disparage the London.  I actually enjoy playing safe, solid, and "boring" openings.  I grew up playing the KIA and I still like Lasker's Defense in the QGD (and neither of these offer much of anything in the critical lines).  {Honestly, I even enjoy playing in Symmetrical English lines.}   Huh

I'm trying to get a feel for the "simple to play" versus "offers an edge" trade-off.  Simple systems tend to make life easier for both players as they don't offer opponents difficult problems to solve but do offer the practioner a way to reach playable middlegames they're comfortable with AND have a social life at the same time.  Which is not such a bad tradeoff, really.   
So, is the London more than the Colle or the Torre?  Or is it more like a Catalan or reversed Grunfeld?  Or is anyone arguing it is as good as mainline Queen's Gambits?  What are these variations being offered as proof for?      
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #104 - 06/08/06 at 07:53:31
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Carsten Hansen is giving the London-book 5 stars at  http://www.chesscafe.com ;  Congratulations Tafl.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #103 - 04/18/06 at 12:34:44
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Hello,

Have been looking at 1d4 e6 2. Bf4 c5 3. e3 Qb6 4. Nc3, and in particular trying to understand the differences with similar position with Nf3, Nf6 included. The recent Winning with the London book suggests that white should take draw after 4 ... p xp
5 p xp Q xp 6. Nb5 Bb5+ 7.Ke2 Nc6 with Rb1 etc, since probably losing after 8Nc7+ Kd8 9 NxR Nxd4 10 Qxd4 ... One of the main ideas of the book is that white gets extra chances by delaying Nf3, and playing Bf4 immediately. However in the above case, the above line is only playable for black because Nf3 has not been played. 
        If black is playing to win must avoid 5...Qxp, and can see two approaches
1) 5...Nf6 transposing to a Wells game. Does white have anything better than the unimpressive looking 6a3  of the game.

2)5...a6, with idea that if 5 ...d5 white can play 6BxN RxB 7Bb5+ exploiting no Nf6.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #102 - 02/28/06 at 01:17:03
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I wonder if there's any room for an early Nc3:

1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 Nc6 4 Nc3

I ran into this as Black in a correspondence game and made an absolute hash of the opening, but White played passively, and I expect I'll manage to get a draw.  But it caught me off guard, and White did get a strong advantage...
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #101 - 02/04/06 at 22:32:35
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After the moves 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4..., What about 3...Bf5? 

Can white show any advantage?

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #100 - 11/22/05 at 08:02:47
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In contrast to your previous suggestions, 8...Nh5 looks distinctly suspicious. So I spent some time looking for an outright refutation. I didn't find a very clearcut one, but after 9.Ne5, Black at least has practical problems. Unless Black plays 9...Nf6, he has the following options:
a) 9...Nxg3?? 10.Bxh7+ Kh8 11.hxg3+-
b) 9...Bxe5? 10.Bxh7+ Kxh7 11.Qxh5+ Kg8 12.dxe5 +/-
c) 9...g6 looks weakening. After 10.f4 cxd4 (10...f6?! 11.Bxg6 should come to the same) 11.exd4 f6?! (Black probably should try 11...Qb6 or 11...Qc7) 12.Bxg6 fxe5 13.Qxh5 hxg6 14.Qxg6+ Kh8 15.Qh6+ White seems to have a clear advantage. 

If you find one of these lines playable for Black, I will be happy to look deeper into it.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #99 - 11/21/05 at 00:57:57
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There is also --


1. d4 d5 
2. Nf3 e6 
3. Bf4 c5 
4. c3 Nc6 
5. e3 Bd6 
6. Bg3 Nf6 
7. Nbd2 

(7. Bd3 O-O 8. Nbd2
Qe7 9. Ne5 {transposes to the line below}) 

7... O-O 
8. Bd3 Nh5  (my new fresh idea)
9. Bh4 

(9. Ng5 Nf6 10. Bxd6 Qxd6 11. Qb1 h6) 

(9. Qc2 f5 10. Bxd6 Qxd6 11. dxc5 Qxc5 12. b4 Qd6
13. b5 Ne5 14. Nxe5 Qxe5 15. Nf3 Qf6 16. O-O e5 ) 

9... Nf6 
10. O-O  e5 
11. dxe5 Bxe5 
12. Nxe5 

[[12. h3 h6 13. Nxe5 

(13. c4 Be6 14. Nxe5 Nxe5 15. Be2
dxc4) 

13... Nxe5]]

12... Nxe5 
13. Bc2 

(13. Be2 Ng6 14. Bg3 Bf5) 

13... Bd7 
14.Nb3 Bb5 
15. Re1 b6 

Black is good also and his center space is more solid than in other lines.

« Last Edit: 11/21/05 at 02:32:13 by BladezII »  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #98 - 11/20/05 at 03:32:45
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I suggested 17...b5 because it might change the pawn structure and possibly the nature of the position. 17...Bc6 is one of several natural moves and can be answered with several natural moves (18.Rc1, 18.Qc2, 18.Be5, 18.cxd5 etc.). 

In my opinion the position demands evaluation rather than calculation. This should preferrably be done by a stronger player than me. The factors can easily be identified:
Material: White has the bishop-pair
Pawn structure: Slightly unbalanced. Black has a little more central space, but his pawns are hard to handle because he can easily end up with an isolated e-pawn or immobile c-and d-pawns.
Piece activity: Both sides will soon be fully mobilized. No particularly strong or weak pieces. Black needs to find a good central square for his knight if it is to compete with White's dark-squared bishop.
Conclusion: Weighing these factors up against each others and finding the optimal plan is not easy. To me White seems to have the slightly better chances, but it shouldn't be too hard for Black to keep the balance (or even beat a weaker player).

All in all a fairly normal outcome of a correctly handled opening (or one equally mishandled by both players).
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #97 - 11/20/05 at 00:30:27
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" You instead suggest 15...Nf6, which seems to be untested. The idea isn't entirely clear to me, but I agree that 16.0-0 looks natural (16.c4 b5!?). After 16...Bd7 I suggest 17. c4, when 17...b5!? 18. b3 a6 19.Qc2 looks natural and slightly better for White. That evaluation may of course be debated but I believe this is a position where the bishops are likely to eventually show their strength. " 

after 16...  Bd7  I did take a look and played around with 17.c4.  I did not include it in my post because of --

17.c4  Bc6   

And Black has an easy game, in my opinion.

Shocked

Let me know, please your input
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #96 - 11/19/05 at 05:15:10
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First of all, even if I believe the London system (or at least the moves 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4) to be a valid try for an advantage, I do not claim that White should be able to keep his small advantage deep into the endgame. If you continue an analysis long enough, and both sides play correctly, Black should eventually equalize (as in more recognized openings like the Ruy Lopez or the Queen's Gambit declined).

Then to the analysis:

11...f6 isn't mentioned by Kovacevic but there are 6 games in BigBase2005 with the move, and the score is +2=4-0. The strongest player to have met is seems to be Vlatko's namesake Slobodan Kovacevic:
[Event "Albacete op"]
[Site "Albacete"]
[Date "1992.??.??"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Kovacevic, Slobodan"]
[Black "Izeta Txabarri, Felix"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D02"]
[WhiteElo "2395"]
[BlackElo "2445"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3. c3 e6 4. Bf4 d5 5. e3 Nc6 6. Nbd2 Bd6 7. Bg3 Qe7 8. Ne5 Bxe5 9. dxe5 Nd7 10. Nf3 O-O 11. Bd3 f6 12. exf6 Nxf6 13. Ne5 Nxe5 14. Bxe5 Nd7 15. Bg3 e5 16. e4 d4 17. O-O Kh8 18. Qh5 a6 19. a4 b6 20. Rac1 1/2-1/2

This game of course doesn't give all the answers. I must however agree with White's exchange on f6, which seems the best way to make something out of his bishop-pair. And indeed, Fritz seems to like the final position, giving += (0.65). Whether that evaluation is correct or not, I dare not say for sure but I wouldn't mind playing on against an opponent of equal strength. Btw. Fritz prefers the immediate 20.cxd4 cxd4 21.Rac1 with an even clearer advantage.

You instead suggest 15...Nf6, which seems to be untested. The idea isn't entirely clear to me, but I agree that 16.0-0 looks natural (16.c4 b5!?). After 16...Bd7 I suggest 17. c4, when 17...b5!? 18. b3 a6 19.Qc2 looks natural and slightly better for White. That evaluation may of course be debated but I believe this is a position where the bishops are likely to eventually show their strength.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #95 - 11/19/05 at 04:00:47
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1. d4 d5 
2. Nf3 e6 
3. Bf4 c5 
4. c3 Nc6 
5. e3 Bd6 
6. Bg3  Nf6 
7. Nbd2 

(7. Bd3 this  is the move you might point out but...  O-O 8. Nbd2  Qe7 9. Ne5 {transposes to the line below}) 

7... O-O 

Here you wrote--

"This seems OK for Black, but according to Kovacevic, White should play 8.Bd3, and only after 8...Qe7 should White stop ...e5 with 9.Ne5 (8...Qc7 9.dxc5). "

But...

8. Bd3 Qe7 
9. Ne5 Bxe5 
10.dxe5 Nd7 
11. Nf3 f6 
12. Qc2 

(12. exf6 Nxf6 13. Ne5 Nxe5 14. Bxe5 Nd7 15. Bg3
Nf6 16. O-O Bd7 ) 

12... f5 
13. O-O-O 

(13. O-O a6) 

(13. Bb5 Na5 14. O-O-O   a6 15. Bd3 b5) 

13... c4 
14. Be2 b5

All this was according to your ideas posted above, but in all these lines, I think White is going nowhere and in some lines , he is playing to  avoid being worse.

Let me know what you think;  this is very interesting.

Shocked
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #94 - 11/17/05 at 01:33:54
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Quote:
1.d4 d5   
2.Nf3 e6   
3.Bf4 c5   


As stated earlier, here I find 3...Bd6 harder to meet.

Quote:
4.c3 Nc6   
5.e3 Bd6   
6.Bg3   
 
In general, this is quite a reasonable idea. The bishop withdraws and to enforce a trade, Black will have to open the h-file for White's rook.   
 
6...Nf6   
7.Nbd2   


This position I would normally reach after 2.Bf4 e6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd6 6.Bg3 Nf6 7.Nbd2. By delaying ...Nf6, Black has made Ne5 less tempting for White, so that he had to meet ...Bd6 with Bg3. This may be a minor achievement. It will sometimes happen anyway if White delays Nf3, so this may be a practical choice for Black, somewhat reducing the lines he need to prepare.

Quote:
[7.Bd3 Qc7 8.Nbd2 e5= Bandara,D-Nasri,A/Tehran IRI 2002.]   


8.dxc5 Bxg3 9.hxg3 e5 10.Bb5 Bg4 11.Qa4 seems more critical.

Quote:
7...0–0   
 
8.Ne5 Bxe5 


This seems OK for Black, but according to Kovacevic, White should play 8.Bd3, and only after 8...Qe7 should White stop ...e5 with 9.Ne5 (8...Qc7 9.dxc5).
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #93 - 11/16/05 at 23:22:32
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1.d4 d5 
2.Nf3 e6 
3.Bf4 c5 
4.c3 Nc6 
5.e3 Bd6 
6.Bg3 

In general, this is quite a reasonable idea. The bishop withdraws and to enforce a trade, Black will have to open the h-file for White's rook. 

6...Nf6 
7.Nbd2 

[7.Bd3 Qc7 8.Nbd2 e5= Bandara,D-Nasri,A/Tehran IRI 2002.] 

7...0–0 

8.Ne5 Bxe5

9.dxe5 Nd7 

10.Nf3


variation A [10.f4 f6 11.exf6 

A1 (11.Nf3 c4 12.e4 

A1.1(12.Nd4 Nc5 13.exf6 Qxf6 14.Be2 Bd7 15.0–0 Ne4=) 

A1 continued--12...dxe4 13.Nd4 Nxd4 14.cxd4 b5 15.a4 Nb6 16.axb5 Qd5 =+ 17.Be2 f5 18.0–0 Bd7 19.Bf2) end of A1

A continued) -  11...Nxf6 12.Be2 Qe8 13.0–0 e5 14.e4 

B-- (14.c4 exf4 15.Bxf4 Be6 16.Bd6 Rf7 17.Bxc5 Rd8 18.Qc2 b6 19.Bd4 Nxd4 20.exd4 dxc4 21.Bxc4 Bxc4 22.Nxc4 Rxd4) end of B

A continued)  14...exf4 15.Bxf4 dxe4 16.Qb3+ Kh8 17.Bd6 Rf7 18.Bxc5 Be6 19.Qc2 b6 20.Be3 Rd8 21.Rae1 h6 22.Nxe4 Bd5 23.Bd3 Ng4 24.Rxf7 Qxf7 25.Nf2

C--(25.b3 Nge5 26.Rd1 Nxd3 27.Rxd3 Rf8 28.Ng3 Be4) end of C.

A continued ) 25...Nge5 26.Be4 Bxa2 27.Rd1 Bd5]  end of A.

10...f6 
11.exf6 Nxf6 
12.Bd3 Qe7 
13.Ne5

 
Variation X -- [13.c4 Nb4 14.0–0 

X1 (14.Bb1 Rd8 15.cxd5 exd5 16.a3 

X1.1 (16.0–0 Kh8 17.a3 Nc6 18.b4 

X1.1a (18.Qd3 Bg4 19.Rc1 a5 20.a4 d4 21.Ra3 Rac8 22.e4)

X1.1 continued) 18...d4 19.e4 d3 20.b5 Nd4 21.Bxd3 Bg4 22.Rc1 Nh5) end of X1.1

X1 continued ) 16...Nc6 17.0–0 Bg4 18.h3 Bxf3 19.Qxf3 Ne4 20.Rd1 Nxg3 21.Qxg3 Qf6 22.Ba2 c4 23.Rxd5 Rxd5 24.Bxc4 Qf7 25.Kh2 Kf8  )  end of X1

Variation X continued)  14...Nxd3 15.Qxd3 b6 16.Rad1 Bb7]  End of Variation X.

13...Nxe5 
14.Bxe5 Nd7 
15.Bg3 e5 
16.Qh5 g6 
17.Qh6 c4 
18.Be2 b5 
19.h4 a5 
20.0–0–0 Bb7
21.Qg5 Rae8

Black looks  good.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #92 - 11/16/05 at 02:12:21
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In case you are looking at the natural variation 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Nf3 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Bd6 7.Ne5 Qc7, 8.Bb5 probably is best. Here are some fairly recent games:

[Event "Izmir GP op"]
[Site "Izmir"]
[Date "2002.08.28"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Vasilev,Milen"]
[Black "Demirel,Tolga"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D02"]
1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nd2 e6 6.Ngf3 Bd6 7.Ne5 Qc7 8.Bb5 Bd7 9.Nxd7 Nxd7 10.Bxd6 Qxd6 11.0-0 0-0 12.f4 a6 13.Bd3 c4 14.Bc2 f5 15.Nf3 b5 16.a3 Ra7 17.Qe1 a5 18.Qh4 Qe7 19.Qh3 Nf6 20.Kh1 Rb7 21.Ng5 g6 22.Qh4 Rfb8 23.h3 b4 24.axb4 axb4 25.Ra6 Rb6 26.Rxb6 Rxb6 27.Ra1 Kg7 28.Ra8 bxc3 29.bxc3 h6 30.Ba4 Nd8 31.Nf3 Nf7 32.Kh2 Qb7 33.Ra5 Ra6 34.Rb5 Qd7 35.Ne5 Nxe5 36.dxe5 Ng8 37.Ra5 Qa7 38.Rxa6 Qxa6 39.Bd7 Qb6 40.Qg3 Kf7 41.h4 Qd8 42.Bxe6+ Kxe6 43.Qxg6+ Kd7 44.Qxf5+ Kc6 45.Qe6+ Kb5 46.g3 Ne7 47.f5 h5 48.f6 Nc6 49.f7 Ne7 1-0

[Event "Ceske Budejovice op"]
[Site "Ceske Budejovice"]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Pribyl,Josef"]
[Black "Jacek,Martin"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D02"]
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 e6 4.e3 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Bd6 7.Ne5 Qc7 8.Bb5 0-0 9.Ndf3 Ne4 10.0-0 Bd7 11.Nxd7 Qxd7 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.Qe2 c4 14.Nd2 Nxd2 15.Qxd2 a6 16.Bxc6 Qxc6 17.f3 f5 18.Rfe1 Rf6 19.Re2 a5 20.Qe1 Raf8 21.Qg3 b5 22.a3 Qb6 23.Qe5 b4 24.axb4 axb4 25.cxb4 Qxb4 26.Ra7 Qb8 27.Re7 Qb6 28.h3 Rc8 29.g4 fxg4 30.hxg4 Rg6 31.Kg2 Kf8 32.Rd7 Qb5 33.Qf4+ Rf6 34.Qd6+ Kg8 35.Qe7 Rg6 36.Kg3 c3 37.Rh2 h6 38.Rxh6 Qb8+ 39.f4  1-0

[Event "Papp Bela mem"]
[Site "Budapest"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Sleisz,Tamas"]
[Black "Izsak,Gyula"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D02"]
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.c3 Nf6 5.e3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Bd6 7.Ne5 Qc7 8.Bb5 0-0 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.0-0 Ba6 11.Re1 Rab8 12.b3 Rfc8 13.Rc1 Rb7 14.Ndf3 Ne4 15.Nd2 f6 16.Nxe4 dxe4 17.Nc4 Bxf4 18.exf4 Bxc4 19.bxc4 Qxf4 20.g3 Qf5 21.Qc2 cxd4 22.cxd4 Rcb8 23.Qxe4 Qxe4 24.Rxe4 Rb1 25.Rxb1 Rxb1+ 26.Kg2 Kf7 27.Re2 Rd1 28.Rb2 Rxd4 29.Rb7+ Kg6 30.Rxa7 Rxc4 31.Rc7 e5 32.a4 Rxa4 33.Rxc6 Ra2 34.Rc7 e4 35.Re7 f5 36.h4 Kf6 37.Re8 g6 38.Kf1 h6 39.Rh8 Kg7 40.Re8 Ra7 41.Ke2 Ra4 42.Re7+ Kf6 43.Rh7 Ra1 44.Rh8 Kg7 45.Re8 Rg1 46.Re7+ Kf6 47.Re8 Rb1 48.Rf8+ Kg7 49.Re8 Rb7 50.Ke3 Kf6 51.Rf8+ Rf7 52.Ra8 Re7 53.Ra6+ Re6 54.Ra8 g5 55.hxg5+ hxg5 56.Rb8 Ra6 57.Rb7 Ra3+ 58.Ke2 Kg6 59.Rb5 Rf3 60.Rb8 Kh5 61.Re8 Kg4 62.Rh8 e3 63.fxe3 Rxg3 64.Rh2 Rh3 65.Rg2+ Kh5 66.Kf2 g4 67.Ke2 Kg5 68.Kf2 Rf3+ 69.Ke2 Kh4 70.Rh2+ Kg3 71.Rh5 Kg2 72.Rg5 g3 73.Rh5 Rf2+ 74.Ke1 Kg1 75.Rg5 g2 76.Rh5 f4 77.exf4 Rxf4 78.Ke2 Re4+ 79.Kd3 Re6 80.Kd2 Kf2 81.Rf5+ Kg3 82.Rg5+ Kh3 83.Kd3 Re1 84.Kd2 g1=Q 0-1

[Event "IECG"]
[Site "IECG email"]
[Date "1999.12.04"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Delbecque,Christian"]
[Black "Kovacs,Arthur"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "D02"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4 e6 4.e3 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Bd6 7.Ne5 Qc7 8.Bb5 0-0 9.Ndf3 Nh5 10.Bg3 Nxg3 11.hxg3 Nxe5 12.Nxe5 Bxe5 13.dxe5 Qxe5 14.Bd3 h6 15.Qc2 f5 16.0-0-0 a6 17.Qe2 Qf6 18.Bc2 b5 19.Kb1 Bb7 20.g4 fxg4 21.Qxg4 e5 22.f3 e4 23.fxe4 dxe4 24.Bxe4 Bxe4+ 25.Qxe4 Qf5 26.Qc2 Qxc2+ 27.Kxc2 Rae8 28.Rhe1 Re5 29.Rd7 Rf2+ 30.Rd2 Rxd2+ 31.Kxd2 Kf7 32.Ke2 h5 33.Rd1 Ke7 34.g3 g6 1/2

[Event "Carl Schlechter mem"]
[Site "Vienna"]
[Date "1996.10.10"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Stoeckl,Ernst"]
[Black "Dueckstein,Andreas"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "D02"]
1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5 4.c3 e6 5.e3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Bd6 7.Ne5 Qc7 8.Bb5 0-0 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.0-0 Rb8 11.b3 Ba6 12.Re1 Ne4 13.Nxe4 dxe4 14.Bg3 f6 15.Nc4 Bxc4 16.Bxd6 Qxd6 17.bxc4 f5 18.Qc2 cxd4 19.cxd4 c5 20.Red1 Rb4 21.a3 Rb6 22.dxc5 Qxc5 23.Rd7 Qe5 24.Rb1 f4 25.exf4 Qxf4 26.Rxb6 axb6 27.Rd4 Qf6 28.Qd2 Ra8 29.Rxe4 Rxa3 30.h3 h6 31.Kh2 Ra5 32.Qe3 e5 1/2

[Event "SWE-chT 0102"]
[Site "Sweden"]
[Date "2001.10.12"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Riis,Jens"]
[Black "Eklund,Lars Goran"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D02"]
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 e6 4.e3 c5 5.c3 Bd6 6.Ne5 Qc7 7.Nd2 Nc6 8.Bb5 0-0 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.0-0 Rb8 11.Rb1 Ne8 12.Qa4 f6 13.Nd3 c4 14.Bxd6 Nxd6 15.Nc5 e5 16.b3 exd4 17.exd4 Nb5 18.Rbc1 cxb3 19.axb3 Qf4 20.Nb1 Re8 21.Qa2 Bf5 22.Na3 Nxa3 23.Qxa3 Re2 24.Rce1 Rbe8 25.Rxe2 Rxe2 26.Qxa7 h5 27.Qa8+ Kh7 28.Qxc6 Be4 29.Qe8 Bf3 30.Qd7 Qg5 31.Qh3 Bg4 32.Qd3+ g6 33.h3 Rd2 34.f4 Rxd3 35.fxg5 Bf5 36.Nxd3  1-0

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #91 - 11/16/05 at 01:29:49
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Quote:
I have looked at the line with 5.Ne5 and I have checked the ideas of ...Nc6  ...Bd6 ....Qc7 ... Ne4  and it fails to show how white can stop Black from equalizing. 
 


Again I must admit that I have some trouble understanding your exact message. 

- Does "it fails to show" refer to the new London System book?

- After 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Ne5, ...Bd6 has already been played. Are you referring to a line where it has been delayed?

- Black may be able to play ...Ne4 in some lines, but with a knight on d2 and a bishop on d3 it will mostly lose a pawn, so it is more often an option if Black plays a set-up with ...b6, ...Bb7 and ...Nbd7. 

- 5...Nc6 of course is playable, but looks a bit peculiar, blocking the c-pawn. Shouldn't the natural moves 5...c5 and 6.c3 be inserted first?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #90 - 11/15/05 at 20:22:26
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Quote:
Thanks, now I see.

Yes, after 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4, 2...c5 may be the only really critical move. Then we already have discussed 3.e4!?. Unless White wants to allow a transposition to the Slav Exchange with 3.c3 cxd4 4.cxd4, then his only serious alternative is 3.e3 when Black may try 3...Qb6. But this doesn't seem to be a problem after 4.Nc3! with a complicated position. 

2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 e6 is less of a challenge than the immediate 2...Bd6. Here White can either play 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Ne5! with fine chances or 4.Nd2 Bd6 5.Bg3 when Black doesn't have the ...Ne7-f5 plan (5...Ne4?! 6.Nxe4 dxe4 7.Qg4 +/-). Neither can Black play for ...e5 with ...Ne7-g6.


I have looked at the line with 5.Ne5 and I have checked the ideas of ...Nc6  ...Bd6 ....Qc7 ... Ne4  and it fails to show how white can stop Black from equalizing.

I am still looking into 4.Nd2.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #89 - 11/13/05 at 14:03:51
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Another thing that I really like with this book is the "Lessons to be learned" after every game. At least I found these small concrete verbal explanations of "what to remember" very helpful... (I am also slow Wink)
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #88 - 11/12/05 at 12:52:10
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I waited and waited, checking Amazon, which reported that the book "Win with the London System" was not yet available.  (Gambit.  by Sverre Johnsen and Vlatko Kovacevic)  Yesterday, on a visit to a local bookstore, I found it.

Wow !  I'll leave it to my betters to do a review, but I can assure you that this is a real book, right here beside my typer.  And already I'm liking it bunches.  How many opening books have you read that give you a good laugh right out of the box ?

The book is divided into two parts.  The first part consists o 30 illustrative games.  Complete.  The second, and longest, part looks at opening variations, without complete games.

So, as an introduction to the first part, the authors write:  "The critical reader may wonder whether the score 30-0 in White's favor objectively reflects the strength of the London System."

(Well, I laughed.)

They explain this imbalance, saying ". . . there are simply too many ways to play badly in chess."  Been there.  Done that.

I am slow.  Very slow.  I mean, I gotta set up the board, actually move the pieces and all that.  But my initial reaction to this book is very favorable.

I don't wanna sound as if I'm writing a blurb on the back of a dust jacket, but allow me one quote from the introduction to the book:  "While the professional chess-player maximizes his results by familarizing himself with as many typical positions as possible, this idealistic appraoch isn't realistic for most amateur players.  The alternative strategy is to study those positions you are most likely to reach and do your best to increase your chances to get them."

Yeah.

Sorry for the gush, but I think I'm going to really like this book.

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #87 - 11/12/05 at 01:36:24
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Thanks, now I see.

Yes, after 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4, 2...c5 may be the only really critical move. Then we already have discussed 3.e4!?. Unless White wants to allow a transposition to the Slav Exchange with 3.c3 cxd4 4.cxd4, then his only serious alternative is 3.e3 when Black may try 3...Qb6. But this doesn't seem to be a problem after 4.Nc3! with a complicated position. 

2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 e6 is less of a challenge than the immediate 2...Bd6. Here White can either play 4.Nf3 Bd6 5.Ne5! with fine chances or 4.Nd2 Bd6 5.Bg3 when Black doesn't have the ...Ne7-f5 plan (5...Ne4?! 6.Nxe4 dxe4 7.Qg4 +/-). Neither can Black play for ...e5 with ...Ne7-g6.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #86 - 11/11/05 at 16:53:30
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I should clarify then--

vs 
1.d4  d5
2.Bf4  c5 

is critical.

If Black still wishes to aim for ...Bd6 then he should play

1.d4  d5
2.Bf4  e6

when after 

3.e3   

here instead of 

3...    Bd6 ?!

Black should play 

3...   Nf6 
and after play ...Bd6

and that takes care of any Qg4 ideas by White.

Black can still play ...Bd6 without having to worry about Qg4 as given in the Book.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #85 - 11/11/05 at 16:07:48
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vs the 2.Bf4 move order, 2... c5 is critical and if Black still wishes to play ...Bd6, then 2... Nf6 and then 3...  Bd6 when Black stops white from playing Qg4 as given in that book.


Something is wrong with this sentence. Maybe the move-numbering or a missing move?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #84 - 11/11/05 at 15:43:50
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" That's true. 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 Bd6 comes very close to equalizing immediately.   
 
Some black players may choose to avoid this because White has a better chance of getting an edge with the Colle and Zukertort systems against an early ...d5 and ...e6, but that doesn't help a faithful Londoner much. "  -- Tafl

vs the Colle-Zukertot, Black can still set himself just the way White does, I mean, with the bishop fianchetto, ...Bd6, Nbd7 or Nc6 when I know Black does not have a hard time in this line to equalize since I have played the Zukertot as white and as Black.

about the other point:

" Win with the London System" suggests 2.Bf4 e6 3.e3 Bd6 4.Bxd6 Qxd6 5.Qg4!? as a way to spice the play up a bit. " 

vs the 2.Bf4 move order, 2... c5 is critical and if Black still wishes to play ...Bd6, then 2... Nf6 and then 3...  Bd6 when Black stops white from playing Qg4 as given in that book.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #83 - 11/09/05 at 01:38:15
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This system with ...Bd6   
solid and by no means handing over any advantage to  white on purpose      in  my opinion. 


That's true. 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 Bd6 comes very close to equalizing immediately. 

Some black players may choose to avoid this because White has a better chance of getting an edge with the Colle and Zukertort systems against an early ...d5 and ...e6, but that doesn't help a faithful Londoner much.   

"Win with the London System" suggests 2.Bf4 e6 3.e3 Bd6 4.Bxd6 Qxd6 5.Qg4!? as a way to spice the play up a bit.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #82 - 11/09/05 at 01:21:30
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@Darthmambo:

Should that read "I didn't read what I just quoted" or "I checked and his ICC handle is not Goodluc"?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #81 - 11/09/05 at 00:43:48
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Quote:


Solid it is. But I believe the f4-bishop is less misplaced in this line than the d2-knight is in the French Tarrasch. So I would expect White to get his normal, small plus in the resulting IQP-position. And realistically White cannot expect more than a small edge in most London lines.



What about this system?

1. d4 d5 
2. Bf4 e6 
3. Nf3 Bd6 

This system with ...Bd6 
solid and by no means handing over any advantage to  white on purpose   Wink   in  my opinion.


It's a good game for both.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #80 - 11/08/05 at 23:32:29
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I think 3.e4 is a strong idea, not to mention the shock value of the move. Belgium GM Luc Winants plays this pawn sac a lot in blitz on ICC with good results, his handle is Goodluc.

At last a thread not as emotionally charged as the infamous BDG.



Like a breath of fresh air methinks. Cheesy 

Topalert  Grin



Do you know his ICC handle? I like to check those games.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #79 - 11/06/05 at 14:59:30
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Based on his many quality posts and nationality, I wonder if tafl = Sverre Johnsen, author of the recent London book?


I have to say, that this idea has struck me too.... Wink

Anyway,
At least tafl's inspiring london-posts here at chesspublishing made me buy the book (by Johnsen/Kovacevic).  Smiley I just got it and have just had a very quick look. So far my impression is good. 

To me some of the early Qb6 variations (like d4 Nf6 Bf4 c5!? with Qb6) is critical and I will look with great interest for their suggstions against this simple (and effective!?) plan.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #78 - 11/06/05 at 04:06:36
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Ahh...

The luxury of internet anonymity  Smiley

I will not comment on my identity. There are quite a few Norwegian chessplayers. 

Tafl, by the way, is an old Norse word, meaning a board (same roots as the English 'table' and Latin 'tabula'), or a board game, and frequently (often erroneously) translated as 'chess' in old texts.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #77 - 11/06/05 at 03:32:55
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Based on his many quality posts and nationality, I wonder if tafl = Sverre Johnsen, author of the recent London book?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #76 - 11/05/05 at 21:13:26
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Nice link - thanks. Not sure about Kovacevic having played little else but the London for 30 years. He certainly used the Colle to wipe me out in 1980 or so.

The review below that one rather catches the eye too. Apparently the Ruy Lopez 'is undergoing a revival'.

I must have missed its period underground.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #75 - 11/05/05 at 01:45:55
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Steve Giddin's review for the British Chess Magazine is far more interesting: http://www.bcmchess.co.uk/reviews/bcmrev0511.html. ;

He appears to hate the opening and love the book!
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #74 - 10/11/05 at 20:07:08
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"Elburg's reviews are rarely very helpful because he tends to heartily recommend all books he reviews. I have so far assumed that he mercifully keeps silent about the really poor books he receives. But his review of Pinsky's Italian book hints that it is not that simple. 
 
"Btw: Assuming Elburg is an eager reader of English chess books, his own English is surprisingly helpless. We must presume he concentrates on the books' content rather than their literary qualities. " -- tafl

"Helpless" is a kind way of describing how Mr. Elburg approaches English.  I have to admire his enthusiasm, but completely agree with tafl's opinion about the helpfulness of Elburg's reviews.   

Amazon still says the book is not yet available, but all the signs are encouraging.  I'm waiting for a good review(s), but know I will buy this one.  At least we know Gambit didn't let it get sucked into the same black hole that apparently claimed Robert Bellin's book.

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #73 - 10/05/05 at 01:15:48
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Quote:

Hmm...
I wonder how many of the readers of this forum are able to make any sense of a Swedish review  Wink

The point with my post was more to say that the book now actually was available....

Dont think Babel Fish translator covers any of the scandinavian languaes yet  Wink

Quote:


Elburg's reviews are rarely very helpful because he tends to heartily recommend all books he reviews. I have so far assumed that he mercifully keeps silent about the really poor books he receives.

The only good thing about Elburg's site is that he covers most published books... Angry

I wonder if he really reads all these books...
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #72 - 10/05/05 at 00:55:50
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"Win with the London System" is now available at http://www.schack-kompaniet.com/


Hmm...

I wonder how many of the readers of this forum are able to make any sense of a Swedish review  Wink

There is also a review at http://www.chessmail.com/books/elburg91.html. ;

Elburg's reviews are rarely very helpful because he tends to heartily recommend all books he reviews. I have so far assumed that he mercifully keeps silent about the really poor books he receives. But his review of Pinsky's Italian book hints that it is not that simple.

Btw: Assuming Elburg is an eager reader of English chess books, his own English is surprisingly helpless. We must presume he concentrates on the books' content rather than their literary qualities.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #71 - 10/04/05 at 14:32:17
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"Win with the London System" is now available at
http://www.schack-kompaniet.com/  Cheesy

(It will be hard to stop my curiousity from buying this book, even though I have promised myself to finally play some "real" chess... Undecided)

Hopefully there will be some quality reviews of the book out soon...
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #70 - 09/11/05 at 11:25:35
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Quote:
Ok, so what if black does not take the poisoned pawn? At least he has provoked Nc3... Feels strange to play with the c-pawn locked.


I doubt that ...Qb6 is more useful than Nc3. 

I would be inclined to meet the immediate 4...d6 with 5.Bb5+, planning a4-a5, but the position is relatively calm so there are lots of options for both sides.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #69 - 09/11/05 at 08:40:20
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GrinMaybe the new book by V Kovacevic and S johnsen
Win with the London,will shed some light on these lines.
      Due out this month I think(SEPT) 8)
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #68 - 09/11/05 at 08:39:25
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GrinMaybe the new book by V Kovacevic and S johnsen
Win with the London,will shed some light on these lines.
      Due out this month I think(SEPT) 8)
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #67 - 09/11/05 at 05:55:23
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Fritz suggests (with some gentle guidance) this as a mainline: 6.a3 Na6 7.Rb1 Qa2 8.Rb3! cxd4 9.Be5! and White seems to have the advantage, e.g. 9...Nc5 10.Bc4 Nb6 11.Bxd4 Nxc4 12.Bxc5 b6 13.Bd4 e5 14.Bxe5 Nxe5 15.Nc3+/-


Rb3! and Be5! was nice  Grin and saves the Qxb2 variation.

Ok, so what if black does not take the poisoned pawn? At least he has provoked Nc3... Feels strange to play with the c-pawn locked.  Sad

I know white "can" play this way against the grünfeld (Barry attack) but at least then the e5 square is available for white. 

Now I would assume that black will put his d-pawn on d6... Tongue
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #66 - 09/11/05 at 00:24:23
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Fritz suggests (with some gentle guidance) this as a mainline: 6.a3 Na6 7.Rb1 Qa2 8.Rb3! cxd4 9.Be5! and White seems to have the advantage, e.g. 9...Nc5 10.Bc4 Nb6 11.Bxd4 Nxc4 12.Bxc5 b6 13.Bd4 e5 14.Bxe5 Nxe5 15.Nc3+/-

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #65 - 09/10/05 at 16:32:48
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Quote:


How about (4.Nc3 Qxb2?! 5.Nb5 Nd5) 6.a3!?, trying to trap the queen?


a3!? is interesting, (btw Ra1/b1/a1...  draws)
However I am worried about Na6! and blacks main threat is Nc3!
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #64 - 09/10/05 at 15:46:59
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How does white handle 3-, Qb6!? 
 
After the "standard" Nc3 reply, Qxb Nb5 Nd5! seams strong 


How about (4.Nc3 Qxb2?! 5.Nb5 Nd5) 6.a3!?, trying to trap the queen?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #63 - 09/10/05 at 14:53:24
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Quote:

In addition White has the rare 2.Bf4!? which is not extensively tested, but allows White to meet 2...c5 with 3.e3 which leads to a slighly less balanced pawn structure should Black exchange on d4.


How does white handle 3-, Qb6!?

After the "standard" Nc3 reply, Qxb Nb5 Nd5! seams strong
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #62 - 08/19/05 at 15:44:39
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it seems to me that set-ups with a kingside fianchetto give the Black position a lot more scope for dynamism


That's undoubtedly true, but just as true after 2.c4.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #61 - 08/18/05 at 08:22:27
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That is even more true for set-ups with f5 before Nf6  Cheesy
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #60 - 08/18/05 at 06:11:29
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But at least in these lines, Black has not committed himself to ...e6 - and it seems to me that set-ups with a kingside fianchetto give the Black position a lot more scope for dynamism.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #59 - 08/18/05 at 04:09:54
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1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 is a good anti-London weapon. But after 3.c3 (planning 4.Bf4) it is not at all easy for Black to spice up the play. Admittedly 3...cxd4 4.cxd4 is a fairly harmless Exchange Slav where Black should equalize before move 15 if handled sensibly, but spicy...

In addition White has the rare 2.Bf4!? which is not extensively tested, but allows White to meet 2...c5 with 3.e3 which leads to a slighly less balanced pawn structure should Black exchange on d4. But of course in this case it is White trying to spice things up - not Black.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #58 - 08/18/05 at 03:28:38
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It was to find something 'spicy' for Black after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3/3.Bf4

I finally decided that I should just bite the bullet and play 2...c5 (my main defence to 1.d4 is the Modern Benoni) - I had been worried about the line 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3!?, but Richard Palliser's coverage in his recent Modern Benoni book has persuaded me that this is OK for Black and not as dull as I thought.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #57 - 08/17/05 at 17:03:56
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Quote:
I believe Luke McShane employed this very gambit (3 e4) to defeat Illescas in the recent European Team Champs.

I believe alumbrado's question has no answer, I'm afraid. If anyone knows one I'd love to hear it as I've just finished the chapter on the London system for my book and (not exactly plugging here) I couldn't come up with anything exactly spicy either.


What was Alumbrado's question again? I must have missed it.

Toppers Grin
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #56 - 08/17/05 at 03:26:01
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Here is the game:

McShane,L (2625) - Illescas Cordoba,M (2624) [D00]
15th European Team Championshi (3.12), 01.08.2005

1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 dxe4 4.d5 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Qe2 g6 7.0-0-0 Bg7 8.Nxe4 Nxe4 9.Qxe4 0-0 10.Bc4 Bf5 11.Qf3 b5 12.Bf1 Qa5 13.g4 Qxa2 14.gxf5 Qxb2+ 15.Kd2 Nd7 16.Ne2 Nb6 17.Qb3 Qf6 18.Ke1 Qxf5 19.Bh3 Qf6 20.Rg1 Nc4 21.Rg3 Nb2 22.Rb1 Nc4 23.Rd1 Nb2 24.Rb1 Nc4 25.Bg2 Rad8 26.h4 h6 27.h5 g5 28.Bc7 Rd6 29.Bxd6 exd6 30.Qf3 Qd8 31.Qf5 Re8 32.Be4 Kf8 33.Rf3 Qa5+ 34.c3 Ne5 35.Re3 Nc4 36.Rf3 Ne5 37.Rg3 Qa2 38.f4 gxf4 39.Qxf4 Qc4 40.Kf2 Nd7 41.Rxg7 Kxg7 42.Rg1+ 1-0

It is interesting to note that 6.Qe2 seems to be the GMs' preference (and not 6.a4). Personally I am a little sceptical to the plan of immediate 0-0-0, and indeed it seems Black had at least a draw with 15...Qb4+.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #55 - 08/16/05 at 18:49:35
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I believe Luke McShane employed this very gambit (3 e4) to defeat Illescas in the recent European Team Champs.

I believe alumbrado's question has no answer, I'm afraid. If anyone knows one I'd love to hear it as I've just finished the chapter on the London system for my book and (not exactly plugging here) I couldn't come up with anything exactly spicy either.

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #54 - 08/11/05 at 18:46:17
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@ Tafl

Here is the game for the record.

[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date "1989.??.??"]
[White "Kovacevic"]
[Black "Norwood,David"]
[Round ""]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A40"]

1. d4 g6 2. c3 Bg7 3. Bg5 h6 4. Bh4 f5 5. e3Nf6 6. Nd2 O-O 7. Bd3 d6 8. f4 Nc6 9. Ngf3Qe8 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. d5 Nd8 12. O-O e5 13. fxe5dxe5 14. e4 f4 15. Ne1 Nf7 16. Be2 h5 17. Nd3 Nh6 18. a4 Qe7 19. b4 g5 20. Bxh5 g4 21. Nc5 Qg7 22. Ne6 Bxe6 23. dxe6 Qg5 24. Bf7+ Nxf7 25. exf7+ Rxf7 26. Qb3 Kg7 27. Rf2 Qg6 28. Raf1 Rh8 29. Qe6 Rh5 30. h3 gxh3 31. Re2 Re7 32. Qc8 Bh4 33. Nf3 Qb6+ 34. Kh1 hxg2+ 35. Rxg2+ Bg3+ 36. Nh2 Kh7 37. Rd1 Qh6 38. Rdd2 Rg7 39. Qe8 Qg6 40. Rd8 Qxe8 41. Rxe8 f3  0-1

So it would seem that we are both right, granted this isn't strictly a London, but still the ideas are very similiar.

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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #53 - 08/11/05 at 01:13:16
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A Dutch type setup is also a bit problematic for Londoneers, I seem to recall then IM David Norwood got his final GM norm using such a setup against none other than Kovacevic himself.


Considering Norwood's opening preferences this is more likely to have started as a modern (1.d4 g6 or 1...d6), which indeed is a bit problematic for Londoners. The simple solution is 2.e4! when Black in my humble opinion is struggling a bit (the 150-attack is a terrifying weapon - at least at a lower level).
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #52 - 08/11/05 at 00:53:56
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I've always thought the London system was innocuous, especially against KID players. Has anything changed?


White has nice attacking chances in the ...e5 version of the KID. A nice model game is Spassky-Bukic, Bugojno 1978: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.e3 0-0 5.Be2 d6 6.0-0 Nbd7 7.h3 Qe8 8.c4 e5 9.Bh2 Qe7 10.Nc3 e4 11.Nd2 Re8 12.Nb5 Qd8 13.c5 a6 14.cxd6 axb5 15.dxc7 Qe7 16.Bxb5 Bf8 17.Nc4 Qe6 18.Qc2 Qd5 19.a4 Re6 20.Rfc1 Ne8 21.Qc3 Nef6 22.Ne5 Nb6 23.Nc4 Nfd7 24.Qb3 Rf6 25.Bxd7 Nxd7 26.Qb5 Qf5 27.Bg3 Rfa6 28.d5 Qf6 29.a5 h5 30.b4 h4 31.Bh2 Qf5 32.Rf1 g5 33.f3 Rg6 34.Rad1 exf3 35.Rxf3 Qc2 36.Rd2 Qc3 37.d6 Ra6 38.e4 Qc1+ 39.Rf1 Qc3 40.Qd5 Nf6 41.Rxf6 1-0

Black of course can improve, but ever since, White has been scoring a healthy plus in this line (+41=24-25 after 9...Qe7). 

The ...c5 lines are a different matter. Play usually is very fluid with the stronger player scoring heavily. But a main idea behind the London is to save time on opening preparation and use it for middlegame and endgame improvement. 

However, if you are aggressively inclined, the London should probably be combined with the Barry/150-attacks: either 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 d6 4.Nc3 0-0 5.e4/ 4...d5 5.e3 or 3.Nc3 with the same ideas.

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #51 - 08/10/05 at 18:25:09
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You might need to look in detail at some of the suggestions in this thread, especially tafl's, to form a view on this!


I looked........still seems pretty innocuous to me, except maybe against early e6 systems like the Nimzo, Bogo and Queen's Indian systems.

A Dutch type setup is also a bit problematic for Londoneers, I seem to recall then IM David Norwood got his final GM norm using such a setup against none other than Kovacevic himself. I will need to double check this however, so don't go quoting me. Wink

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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #50 - 08/10/05 at 18:08:17
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You might need to look in detail at some of the suggestions in this thread, especially tafl's, to form a view on this!
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #49 - 08/10/05 at 18:00:27
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I've always thought the London system was innocuous, especially against KID players. Has anything changed? 

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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #48 - 08/10/05 at 10:47:20
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According to Gambit, Sverre Johnsen & Vlatko Kovacevic's Win with the London System will be available in October.  The balance of power in the d-pawn specials section is shifting...
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #47 - 08/04/05 at 06:35:31
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What about a Queen's Indian setup followed by Ne4 and f5? Of is White quicker with Bd3 and Nd2 ?


Please allow me  Smiley

There may well be a way to transpose from the QID to a kind of Dutch. But Black needs to improve on Gierth-Beckhuis, Baden 1997 where White after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 b6 3.Bf4 Bb7 4.e3 e6 5.Bd3 Ne4 6.Nbd2 f5 should have played 7.Bxe4 fxe4 8.Ng5 Bd6 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qh4 with a very clear advantage. I assume that 6...Nxd2 7.Qxd2 f5 should somewhat favour White.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #46 - 08/04/05 at 06:10:43
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@Alumbrado
What about a Queen's Indian setup followed by Ne4 and f5? Of is White quicker with Bd3 and Nd2 ?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #45 - 08/04/05 at 03:53:47
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Alumbrado:

Well, I guess we don't disagree too much (possibly h3 should be included in the list of "system moves") but:
- Against the "King's Indian London" White's next moves are more likely to be e3, Be2, h3, 0-0, c4 and Nc3. 
- In the double d-pawn version White will normally play c4 and Qb3 if Black develops his c8-bishop to f5 or g4.
- Against an early ...c5 and ...Qb6 White will frequently play Nc3

Except for this I must admit that White generally follows your receipt with the most frequent deviation being c4 + Nc3 rather than c3+Nbd2. 

But I am not sure White will save so much time on the clock. It can be quite hard to find the best move-order so any time trouble addict will have plenty of opportunities for excitement  Wink
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #44 - 08/04/05 at 03:19:05
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@tafl: Well, I'm not going to get into a rather pointless discussion of what constitutes the London system, since we basically agree.  All I will say is that in each of the four lines you give, I am prepared to bet that, unless responding to a direct threat or making an obvious capture, there is a good chance that one of my 'more or less pre-programmed moves' will be the best move for White (I could maybe have mentioned Ne5 too) for quite a few moves to come.

Sure, there will be exceptions (some ideas with Bb5 in the 'Chigorin' lines with ...Nc6), but in any case White will risk little by following the programme.  That is one of the main reasons why people play these systems, surely, so they get a few moves for free on the clock and are more or less guaranteed a playable middle game with a clear plan.

@MNb: of course I could have guessed that you would play the Dutch  Roll Eyes  But my question related to possibilities after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 ... even you might think twice about trying to reach an Ilyin-Genevsky from there ...
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #43 - 08/04/05 at 02:23:44
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HgMan wrote:
Quote:
I do wonder, though, what White can generate with a reverse Slav...


This is an interesting angle. But while the Colle admittedly is a reversed Semi-Slav, I don't agree that the London is just a reversed Slav. I would rather say that it's a reversed "Ideal Slav". 

The Ideal Slav is a Slav where Black plays ...Bf5 while keeping his central bastion with pawns on c6, d5 and e6. It can only be reached against rather harmless White set-ups as lines like 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bf5, intending 5...e6 come close to losing to 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Qb3. Therefore Black used to play the positionally undesirable 4...dxc5 in order to develop his bishop to f5. 

It can be argued that the fashionable Chebanenko Slav (4...a6) is an attempt to avoid this problem and reach the Ideal Slav, as 5...Bf5 is indeed an option after some of White's slower replies (as Qb3 can be met by ...b5 or ...Ra7). But ...a6 is slow and has some positional draw-backs, so it can hardly be called an ideal solution either.

Black occasionally achieves this "ideal" structure in the Baltic (or Keres) Defence after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3 c6. But this is not as strong for two reasons: 
1) White can frustrate Black's ambitions with more energetic play (3.cxd5/3.Qb3!? or 4.Qb3) 
2) Black is missing his tempo after 5.Qb3 Qb6 6.c5, as neither 6...Qxb3 nor 6...Qc7 7.Bf4 Qc8 gives full equality.

So, to conclude: White's extra tempo in the London (compared to the Slav) is actually very significant as it allows him to play an entirely different structure.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #42 - 08/04/05 at 00:08:49
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1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 and if White now plays the London setup, Black has a lot of fun.


1...f5 or 2...f5 indeed are unbalancing and possibly annoying for those using the London as a risk-avoidance tool. Fortunately I don't belong to that group, and I can assure you that White can have a lot of fun too!
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #41 - 08/03/05 at 22:23:23
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@Alumbrado:
"despite being a very regular reader, I must also have missed your prescription.  Pray enlighten me"
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 and if White now plays the London setup, Black has a lot of fun.
Couldn't you really have guessed?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #40 - 08/03/05 at 10:22:25
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As I say, the fact that White plays a series of more-or-less pre-programmed moves is what makes it a system.


By that definition all opening "systems" are more-or-less synonymous with "very bad openings". If a pre-programmed move is good, it is mostly a co-incidence. 

In my opinion the London System is mostly a conglomerate of 4 different openings:
* 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4
* 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bf4
* 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4
* 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4
Most London-players will fill in with a few more related lines, but there is no need for that.

After these 3 moves (or so) have been played, White has to look for the best move at every turn. Otherwise,  of course,he will soon be worse.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #39 - 08/03/05 at 09:10:51
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Well, I can't accept that the 'Reversed Albin' being discussed here is part of the London System.  As I say, the fact that White plays a series of more-or-less pre-programmed moves is what makes it a system.  I don't think it is helpful to compare it with the English.

I agree with most of what you say about the London System proper, though; it is just that I am looking for something a bit more "spicy".
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #38 - 08/03/05 at 08:56:58
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Well, for me the London System involves playing most, if not necessaarily all of the moves d4, Nf3, Bf4, e3, c3, Nbd2, Bd3, 0-0 (not necessarily in that order!) against virtually everything.  This is why it is called a system.  I do not regard the line mostly under discussion here, with an early e2-e4, as part of that.


That's at best a receipe for dull equality (and for great problems against the KID). I consider the London (System) as a set of related lines involving a pawn at d4 and a bishop at f4. The rest of the moves you mention are only part of the system in the same sense that g3, Bg2, Nf3, 0-0, d3, Rb1 and b4 are part of the English Opening: They generally fit well with the introductory moves but are not always strong.

Quote:
@ tafl: sorry I must have missed your post.  2...b6 and 3...Ba6 is certainly cheeky, but I am not altogether sure I would trust it. 4.Nbd2 intending 5.c4 (and then Bd3 etc.) looks like one way to handle it and if Black seeks to prevent this with 4...d5 then after 5.e3 Bxf1 6.Nxf1 White can (if he thinks it is necessary) preserve the option of kingside castling, while black's queenside light squares look rather sensitive.
 

Well, I agree - it doesn't look entirely trustworthy. But that can be said about a lot of "fighting defences" like the Benoni, Benko or Dutch.

Quote:
Also Black needs to be prepared for 2...b6 3.Bg5(!) which is a rather good form of Torre.
 

Interesting idea, but I will not follow it up in this tread on the London.

Quote:
As for the other line you suggest, well, this is what I do play, more or less - in the end you simply end up playing either ...d5 or ...b6 with some mainstream London System positions of exactly the sort I am struggling to find anything exciting in.


Forcing an early h3 is a minor achievement - among other things stopping the Qd1-f3-h3 manouevre. And Black has some fighting (albeit slow) ideas including ...d6, ...cxd4, ...Nbd7, ...Qc7, ...Nd5, ...f5, and ...N7f6 fighting for the kingside squares e4 and f4. White will be less inclined to drive away a knight at e4 with f3 after he has played h3.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #37 - 08/03/05 at 08:16:35
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Well, for me the London System involves playing most, if not necessaarily all of the moves d4, Nf3, Bf4, e3, c3, Nbd2, Bd3, 0-0 (not necessarily in that order!) against virtually everything.  This is why it is called a system.  I do not regard the line mostly under discussion here, with an early e2-e4, as part of that.

@ tafl: sorry I must have missed your post.  2...b6 and 3...Ba6 is certainly cheeky, but I am not altogether sure I would trust it. 4.Nbd2 intending 5.c4 (and then Bd3 etc.) looks like one way to handle it and if Black seeks to prevent this with 4...d5 then after 5.e3 Bxf1 6.Nxf1 White can (if he thinks it is necessary) preserve the option of kingside castling, while black's queenside light squares look rather sensitive.  Also Black needs to be prepared for 2...b6 3.Bg5(!) which is a rather good form of Torre.

As for the other line you suggest, well, this is what I do play, more or less - in the end you simply end up playing either ...d5 or ...b6 with some mainstream London System positions of exactly the sort I am struggling to find anything exciting in.

@MNb: despite being a very regular reader, I must also have missed your prescription.  Pray enlighten me ...   

Personally I am coming to the conclusion that 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5! is the way to go - now that Richard Palliser's excellent coverage of 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 has given me new confidence in Black's position there.

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #36 - 08/03/05 at 07:30:26
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Demonstrating equality would be a reasonable first step. I suspect Maroczy believed 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Nh5 was a forced draw (or a Pseudo-Torre after 4.Bc1 Nf6 5.Bg5). But of course there are other options for both sides.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #35 - 08/03/05 at 07:15:45
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"Doesn't anybody want to talk about the actual London System?!"
Amazing, isn't it? The only legitimate question IMO is, how Black can generate winning chances against the London setup. Regular readers know my answer.

The London setup is for those, who have grown old and tired at a too young age.  Grin
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #34 - 08/03/05 at 05:03:15
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Hello Alumbrado, 
I now see that you were the one asking about 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4. If you want a discussion about that, you should reply to my suggestion of 2...b6 and 3...Ba6 or  2...e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 Be7. Even if you don't like those lines, your reply may lead the discussion in your desired direction.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #33 - 08/03/05 at 04:33:53
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What exactly do you consider 'the actual London System?' Only 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4? (actually in London 1922 the main topic was 3.h3 followed by 4.Bf4)
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #32 - 08/03/05 at 03:45:47
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Doesn't anybody want to talk about the actual London System?!
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #31 - 08/02/05 at 11:15:40
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Quote:
You develop the knights in alphabetical orden in the Tarrasch in order to avoid unpleasant Bg5 pins (until White has played g3). After White has played Bf4 that is not so relevant (will lose a tempo).

That is not to say 5...cxd4 is not playable. I must look at that later.

Very true for the tarrasch, but you also do it because attacking d4 is more important than defending d5. Also a knight on c6 ensures that no nasty pieces like a queen will occupy d4 when you exchange there.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #30 - 08/02/05 at 08:37:35
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My first assumption was that 5.Nc3 Qxd4 6.Qxd4 cxd4 7.Nb5 Na6 8.Nxd4 (8.Nf3 f6!) must be somewhat better for White, but the edge really is rather tiny.


The more I look at it, the more I like White after (1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 e6 4.exd5 Qxd5) 5.Nc3 Qxd4 6.Qxd4 cxd4 7.Nb5 Na6 8.Nxd4. I am getting fairly convinced that Bxa6 is a threat that Black must take into account, as the passed c-pawn must be more significant than Black's bishop-pair.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #29 - 08/02/05 at 02:19:03
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Cool!!! 8)

I just learned a new rule! (Knights in alphabetical order rule.)  Ok, I actually have been following that rule most of the time anyway, but it's a neat tool for teaching.  Thx Willempie and tafl!
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #28 - 08/02/05 at 01:57:30
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I have had a look now. What about (1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 e6 4.exd5 exd5 5.Nf3 cxd4) 6.Bxb8!? Rxb8 7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.Bxd7+ Qxd7 9.Qxd4 a6 10.0-0 when I think Black has problems with his kingside development? (e.g. 10...Nf6 11.Re1+ Be7 12.Qe5 Rc8 13.Nc3 Rc7 14.Rad1)


  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #27 - 08/01/05 at 22:38:41
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You develop the knights in alphabetical orden in the Tarrasch in order to avoid unpleasant Bg5 pins (until White has played g3). After White has played Bf4 that is not so relevant (will lose a tempo).

That is not to say 5...cxd4 is not playable. I must look at that later.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #26 - 08/01/05 at 17:34:44
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Quote:
Is this theory?

Just checking

Topper  Grin

Dont know, but I see that the variation tafl gave broke the essential rule I learned in e6, d5, c5 setups, that is to develop the knight in alphabetical order. 8)
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #25 - 08/01/05 at 15:37:29
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Is this theory?

Just checking

Topper  Grin
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #24 - 08/01/05 at 13:39:09
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Just did some minor checking. I think black can take on d4 quicker in for example 1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 c5 3. e4 e6 4. exd5 exd5 5. Nf3 cxd4 6. Nxd4 Nc6 7. Bb5 Bd7


  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #23 - 08/01/05 at 06:22:06
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Hadnt looked at 4 exd5 Qxd5, but it cant be that bad with a bishop on f4 to attack.


I must admit that I had not looked at 4...Qxd5 either. But the f4-bishop is indeed a bit vulnerable in some lines. My first assumption was that 5.Nc3 Qxd4 6.Qxd4 cxd4 7.Nb5 Na6 8.Nxd4 (8.Nf3 f6!) must be somewhat better for White, but the edge really is rather tiny. Maybe 5.Nf3 cxd4 6.Qxd4 Qxd4 7.Nxd4 Bd7 8.Nb5 Na6 9.N1c3 Nf6 10.Rd1 is a better try. 

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #22 - 08/01/05 at 06:04:11
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Tafl likes 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Bf4 Nf6 5.c3 Nc6 6.Bd3 Bg4 7.Qb3 Qc8 8.Nd2 e6 9.Ngf3 Be7 10.0-0 0-0 11.Rae1 Bh5 12.Ne5 Nxe5?! 13.dxe5 Nd7 14.c4! (idea Bxh7/Qh3)  as in King-Houska London 2004. Aside from the fact that this sequence is far from forced, 11... Nh5!? 12. Be3 Bd6 or 12... Nd7 (petronijevic) are sensible continuations which leads to equality.


After 11...Nh5 12.Be3 seems to be untested. What's wrong with 12.Bg5 Bxf3 13.Nxf3 Bxg5 14.Nxg5 h6 15.Nf3 [15.Nh3] 15...Na5 16.Qd1 Nf4 17.Bb1 Nc4 18.Qc2 when Black had problems (and lost to a considerably lower rated opponent) in D.Buckley-Marusenko, Monmouth 2000?

I must however admit that 11...Bh5 12.Ne5 Nd7!? is worth consideration. I assume the idea must be after 13.Qc2 to improve on Mendoza Contreras-M.Diaz, Gran Canaria, 1989 with 13...Ndxe5. But is it really so clear that White has no time to take on h7?: Lines like 14.Bxh7+ Kh8 15.dxe5 g6 16.f3 Kxh7 17.g4 Bh4 18.Rd1 [18.Re2? Nd4!] 18...Qc7 (this may be where Black should improve) 19.gxh5 Nxe5 20.Kh1 seems rather promising to me, but I will need to look closer into it before I dare say more.

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #21 - 08/01/05 at 05:49:57
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[quote author=Michael Ayton  link=1122821205/0#18 date=1122871658]I think we need to consider precise moves after 3 e4 e6. On 4 ed can't Black play 4 ...Qd5? After 4 dc meanwhile he has various ...Qf6/...Qb6 ideas. Maybe 4 Bb5 or 4 Nc3 are better, but can White actually force an advantageous IQP position? What do you think is best play for each side?[/quote]
Cant check thoroughly where I am, but my idea was too take on d4 after a neutral move like 4 Nc3. On 4 Bb5 just 4 .. Nc6. Hadnt looked at 4 exd5 Qxd5, but it cant be that bad with a bishop on f4 to attack. Originally I was thinking along the lines of 4 exd5 exd5 and now since the bishop is already on f4 it cant be that bad for black, since in most of those positions you would want it on g5 or e3. So it would go something like 4 exd5 exd5 5 Bb5+ Nc6 6 Nc3 Nf6 (maybe cxd4 followed by Nf6 is more accurate) 7 Nf3 and now maybe Bg4 or c4.

I havent checked it very well, hope to have some chance for that tonight.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #20 - 08/01/05 at 05:35:57
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Well ... there are no games with 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 e6. But there are some transpositional options. So, what follows is just a few natural moves interspersed with some database searches. I hope it can be the starting point of an discussion:

4.exd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nf6 [5...Nc6 6.Bb5 (6.c3 Qb6 7.Qe2+ Be6 8.Qb5 c4 9.Qxb6 axb6 10.Be2 b5 11.0-0 f6 12.Re1 Kf7 13.a3 b4 = M.Lalic-G.Skare, Belgrade 2005) 6...Nf6 7.0-0 Be7 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.Re1+ Be7 10.Qe2 +=]  6.Bb5+ Nc6 7.0-0 Be7 [7...Be6 8.Re1 Qb6 9.Nc3 a6 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 (10...Qxc6 11.dxc5 Bxc5 12.Nd4 +=) 11.Na4 Qb5 12.Nxc5 Bxc5 13.dxc5 Qxc5 14.Qd4+/-] 8.dxc5 (8.Re1 0-0 9.c3 Bg4 10.dxc5 Bxc5 11.Nbd2? Qb6 -/+ Manning - D.Schneider, Mashantucket 1999) 8...Bxc5 9.Qe2+ Be6 10.Ng5 Qe7 11.Re1 Bd7 12.Qxe7+ Nxe7 13.Bxd7+ Nxd7 14.Nc3 +=

I hope I got it right - I lazily cut the games fragments from ChessBase into my text editor without using any analysis engine.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #19 - 08/01/05 at 05:14:47
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if White's best in the london is to transpose to a exchange slav or caro-kann after 1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. Nf3 c5 4. e3/c3 cd4!=, then i  think there is no controversy. It is well settled that these are equal variations. 

Petrosian's 7... Na5 against Fischer looks too naive, rather patzer-like if i might say so! 7... Qd7 and 7... Qc8 give equality according to gallagher and petronijevic.

Tafl likes 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Bf4 Nf6 5.c3 Nc6 6.Bd3 Bg4 7.Qb3 Qc8 8.Nd2 e6 9.Ngf3 Be7 10.0-0 0-0 11.Rae1 Bh5 12.Ne5 Nxe5?! 13.dxe5 Nd7 14.c4! (idea Bxh7/Qh3)  as in King-Houska London 2004. Aside from the fact that this sequence is far from forced, 11... Nh5!? 12. Be3 Bd6 or 12... Nd7 (petronijevic) are sensible continuations which leads to equality. And an equal game for black means a refutation of white's play as far as I'm concerned.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #18 - 08/01/05 at 04:47:38
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I think we need to consider precise moves after 3 e4 e6. On 4 ed can't Black play 4 ...Qd5? After 4 dc meanwhile he has various ...Qf6/...Qb6 ideas. Maybe 4 Bb5 or 4 Nc3 are better, but can White actually force an advantageous IQP position? What do you think is best play for each side?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #17 - 08/01/05 at 04:31:01
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My interest is from the Black side after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 - ideally I would like to avoid the rather stale Queen's Indian positions that can arise but am struggling to find a sound alternative (other than playing ...d5 of course).  Any suggestions?


Would you consider 2...b6 3.Bf4 Ba6!? 

Otherwise I believe 2...e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 Be7 (threatening ...Nh5) is one of Black's better tries. After 5.h3, 5...Qb6 may be better than 4...Qb6 (but 6.Nc3 still seems tactically playable).
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #16 - 08/01/05 at 04:18:32
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Willempie's 3 ...e6 looks offputtingly solid. Grrrr. 


Solid it is. But I believe the f4-bishop is less misplaced in this line than the d2-knight is in the French Tarrasch. So I would expect White to get his normal, small plus in the resulting IQP-position. And realistically White cannot expect more than a small edge in most London lines.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #15 - 08/01/05 at 03:38:49
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Wittily put, alumbrado! However, while I think White could have a lot of fun after 3 ...de 4 d5, Willempie's 3 ...e6 looks offputtingly solid. Grrrr.

I strongly agree with tafl that White should keep flexible and not rule out c2--c4. Also after 2 ...c6 I seem to recall seeing some games where White played a quickish 0-0-0 exploiting the additional tempo Black would expend on ...c5.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #14 - 08/01/05 at 03:26:35
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I see that people's desire to toss pawns onto the barbecue on move 3 is nearly as strong here as in the BDG threads!

My interest is from the Black side after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 - ideally I would like to avoid the rather stale Queen's Indian positions that can arise but am struggling to find a sound alternative (other than playing ...d5 of course).  Any suggestions Undecided ?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #13 - 08/01/05 at 00:21:41
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[quote author=Michael Ayton  link=1122821205/0#7 date=1122831576]What then do people think of tafl's 3 e4!? suggestion? -- I'm just trying to get the ball of controversy rolling. I see this floored even MNb's hero Spielmann ... But then the Exchange Caro line (from the BDG thread, which should really be here) downed Petrosian![/quote]
Just 3..e6 I'd think, looks like a weird french tarrasch ;)
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #12 - 07/31/05 at 23:46:02
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TopNotch is right on. Play chess! 
But I still would like to add: Be flexible - play c4 if that looks like the right move, sacrifice a pawn if that seems promising or play a "system move" if that seems appropriate. 

As to the specifics:
- Against 2...c6, 3.Nf3 Qb6 4.Qc1, planning c4 should suffice for a small advantage. But 4.Nbd2!? Qxb2 5.e4 has been played by strong players.
- 2...Nf6 for good reasons is the main move. 3.e3 then probably is slightly better than 3.Nf3, e.g. 3...c5 4.c3 (4.dxc5, 4.Nc3 and 4.Nf3 Qb6 5.Nc3 are interesting too) 4...Qb6 5.Qb3 c4 6.Qc2 and now Black is not ready for 6...Bf5?? as 7.Qxf5 Qxb2? 8.Qc8 is mate.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #11 - 07/31/05 at 22:24:22
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Simply play chess.

The London is not about an Opening edge but  Middlegame understanding in a sound position.

I had to add in that 'Sound Position' bit in order to avoid Mnb trying to draw some kinda weird analogy with the BDG.
 
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #10 - 07/31/05 at 20:31:19
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The problem remains, what to do if Black does NOT play 2...c5, but something like 2...c6 or 2...Nf6.
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #9 - 07/31/05 at 20:08:12
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Yes, I certainly agree about the fresh air! The gambit seems a lot of fun too -- judging by Winants's games with it on ChessLive this could give opponents quite a scare ...
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #8 - 07/31/05 at 19:58:05
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What then do people think of tafl's 3 e4!? suggestion? -- I'm just trying to get the ball of controversy rolling. I see this floored even MNb's hero Spielmann .


I think 3.e4 is a strong idea, not to mention the shock value of the move. Belgium GM Luc Winants plays this pawn sac a lot in blitz on ICC with good results, his handle is Goodluc.

At last a thread not as emotionally charged as the infamous BDG.

Like a breath of fresh air methinks. Cheesy 

Topalert  Grin
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #7 - 07/31/05 at 17:39:36
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What then do people think of tafl's 3 e4!? suggestion? -- I'm just trying to get the ball of controversy rolling. I see this floored even MNb's hero Spielmann ... But then the Exchange Caro line (from the BDG thread, which should really be here) downed Petrosian!
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #6 - 07/31/05 at 17:21:13
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I wonder too, I dont see much Grin
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #5 - 07/31/05 at 15:32:21
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No, I'm missing something--I meant Nc6, but then put the knight on f6 in my head.  Sorry.  No end to the controversy, though!

I do wonder, though, what White can generate with a reverse Slav...

  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #4 - 07/31/05 at 13:45:34
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After 4 ... Bf5 5 Nb5, 5 ... Rc8 leaves the a7 pawn hanging.

How exactly is it hanging? There is still a black knight on c6, not to mention that black always has a Qa5+ up his sleeve. Or am I missing something very basic (wont be the first time)?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #3 - 07/31/05 at 11:48:54
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What's the exact merit of Nb5? Imho black can just play 4 .. Bf5 and Rc8 if necessary. Even 4 .. cxd4 5 exd4 Bf5 is possible.


After 4 ... Bf5 5 Nb5, 5 ... Rc8 leaves the a7 pawn hanging.

I won't pretend to argue that this line is absolutely winning for White, but I think it's a little more interesting than the dullish equality normally associated with the London System...
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #2 - 07/31/05 at 11:37:25
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4.Nc3 indeed is interesting. But I believe the standard 4.c3 objectively is a better try when 4...Qb6 5.Qb3 c4 6.Qc2 Bf5!? 7.Qxf5!? is at least as interesting as any BDG. 

But if you are looking for excitement, why not try 3.e4!? which is a reversed Albin's Counter Gambit?
  
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Re: The Controversial London System
Reply #1 - 07/31/05 at 10:07:24
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What's the exact merit of Nb5? Imho black can just play 4 .. Bf5 and Rc8 if necessary. Even 4 .. cxd4 5 exd4 Bf5 is possible.
  
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The Controversial London System
07/31/05 at 09:46:44
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As a joke in another thread, I suggested that the London was at least as controversial as the BDG.  It was all tongue in cheek, but then a couple of responses suggested that there was indeed a good deal of disagreement.

Tafl suggested the intriguing 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4.  Black must almost already be careful after 2 ... c5 3 e3 Nc6?! 4 Nc3, eyeing Nb5.  But is a reversed Baltic really that good?

Does the London guarantee an equal game for Black, or can White hope for more?  What are the merits of this most controversial of d-pawn openings.  Join in, or forever lose this forum to the BDGers...
  
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