TopNotch - several players have drawn with GM´s as Black in this line in the meantime (late 2006-2007). It would seem Black is holding up very well there statistically, although I agree his winning chances are limited - that to me is the drawback of the line. Nevertheless if youare White and looking for a win this may not be your best option, especially as Scandi fans will be extremely well-prepared for it also.

The Shirov-Bauer game also seems to support Black´s point of view, despite the ultimate result I am sure Black was better at one point there, would be interested to see the Bauer analysis.

I agree with all that Qxf6 is a safe option and gxf6 is maybe less safe but give more chance to play for the win

The analyse of Shirov-Bauer begin at move 23. and it's comprehensible that GMs don't want to show much so.... but it seem that from that 23th move the position is équal.
In the game Shirov-Salov after 16...Be7 17.Bxh7+, Shirov assess the position += but Shirov and Ftacnik give 17.h4! +/- and there's 17.Rhg1!? so it's very dificult to recommend this variation!

  Christian Bauer analyse his defeat against Shirov in french's magazine Europe Echecs
   29...g6 (instead of Nb6) 30.hg6 hg6 31.Bg6 Nb6 with the draw

39...Qxf5?? the decisive mistake  39...Qh2 40.Rd1 Nd5! 41.Rd2 Qd2 42.Kb2 Nd1+ 44.Kb1 with probably perpetual check

 

I presume you mean ...0-0 for Black - isnt that the original stem game Shirov-Salov. It would be funny if after all these years of investigations that game proved viable for Black. 

I know White is supposed to have good kingside attacking chances here, but it strikes me that if Black is really going for a win then castling on opposite sides has got to be worth a go - bigger risk of course.

I thought i'd resurrect this thread as an interesting game has been played by Shirov in this one.

[Event "Ciudad de Pamplona"]
[Site "Pamplona ESP"]
[Date "2006.12.27"]
[EventDate "2006.12.22"]
[Round "5"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "A Shirov"]
[Black "Ch Bauer"]
[ECO "B01"]
[WhiteElo "2720"]
[BlackElo "2585"]
[PlyCount "134"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6 6. Bd2 Bf5 7. Bc4 e6
8. Nd5 Qd8 9. Nxf6+ Qxf6 10. Qe2 Bg4 11. d5 Bxf3 12. gxf3 cxd5 13. Bxd5 Nd7
14. O-O-O O-O-O 15. Be4 Qe5 16. Bc3 Qc7 17. Kb1 f6 18. f4 Bd6 19. f5 exf5
20. Bxf5 Kb8 21. h4 Nb6 22. h5 Na4 23. Bd4 Bc5 24. c3 Qb6 25. Qc2 Bxd4 26.
cxd4 Rxd4 27. Rxd4 Qxd4 28. Rc1 a6 29. b3 Nb6 30. Qc7+ Ka7 31. Qxg7 Re8 32.
Qg4 Qxf2 33. Bxh7 Re2 34. Bc2 Nd5 35. Qc4 Nb6 36. Qg4 Nd5 37. Qc4 Nb6 38.
Qd3 Rd2 39. Qf5 Qxf5 40. Bxf5 Rh2 41. Bg4 f5 42. Bf3 Rh3 43. Rh1 Rxf3 44.
h6 Re3 45. h7 Re8 46. h8=Q Rxh8 47. Rxh8 Nd5 48. Rf8 f4 49. Rf5 Nc3+ 50.
Kb2 Ne2 51. Rf6 a5 52. Kc2 f3 53. Kd2 Ng1 54. Ke3 Ne2 55. Kd2 Ng1 56. Kd3
b6 57. Kc4 Kb7 58. Kb5 Kc7 59. Rf7+ Kd6 60. Kxb6 Ke5 61. Kxa5 Ke4 62. b4
Nh3 63. b5 f2 64. b6 Nf4 65. b7 f1=Q 66. b8=Q Kd5 67. Rf5+ 1-0

I got the impression that white was slightly better by move 15 but Black was not without counterplay  if you could neutralise White's bishop pair , black could be ok

Any thoughts !?

Andrew Brett

Doesn't white has the option of playing 11.d5 instead of 11.O-O-O? I think that only after 10..Nd7 the break d5 doesn't work.

Bonsai wrote on 08/19/05 at 12:57:53:


Time to rehabiliate an old thread.

Been looking at the following recently: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bd2 e6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.Qe2 Bd6!? 11.O-O-O 0-0 [Alternatively 11...Bg4 may also be playable] Khalifman does not consider either of these fairly natural continuations in his otherwise thorough Opening According to Anand series, and they both seem perfectly viable to me.

Am I missing something?

Tops

Bobby - forgive me! But in fairness as I recall you said this line was "busted" which is strong words indeed and calls for a defence - the line is perfectly playable for Black. 

what were the comments from GM Fontaine? Something along the lines of centre counter is rubbish and violates the general principles??

I could not remember my analysis as it more or less transposes in Smirin-Prie mentionned in the January update.
11...Qxc2 is the mistake opening the c file with fatal consequences eventually. 11...Nd7! waiting for 12.Rab1 Qxc2 now! is what I had in the computer giving both camps a headache
Similarly to Anand-Lautier refuted by Moriuchi-Prié 7 years later, I know I will get another chance to defend 8...Qb6...before possibly switching to 8...Qc7...

It is a nice attack but all the comments, with a special mention for GM Fontaine in the Europe-Echecs magazine, I have read on it, until that critical moment, are complete rubbish.    

Paddy wrote on 05/01/06 at 12:46:37:


Well not a position for the faint of heart, but I think with 12. ...Ba3, developing a piece and stopping Rac1 harrassing the Black Queen, Black is still in the game.

Paul123 wrote on 02/14/06 at 13:37:14:


"Today will be a day long remembered.  It has seen the end of Kenobi; it will soon see the end of the rebellion."  Darth Vader

Yes thats an idea - the systems for White where he plays d3 I classify as the "Mickey Mouse" systems. If Black plays weakly they work great, but theoretically I dont think White can hope for anything with this approach

Hello, I am new here.  I really enjoyed GM Prie's analysis in NIC 77 on one of the main lines of the scandinavian.
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bd2 e6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.Qe2

Particularly the lines with 10... Bd6 11.0-0-0 Bg4 12. d5 Bf3 13. gf3 cd5 14.Bd5 Bc6 15. Bc3 Bf4 16. KB1 e5 17. Bc6 bxc6 18.Be5 Be5 19. Rhe1 0-0 20.Qe5 Qf3 21. Rg1 g6 =

<GM Prie> I noted your comments about your preference for the early Nf6 instead of the "konigsspringerzuruckhaltungspolitik" idea of delaying the early Nf6.  I reviewed some of the games from NIC 68 where the "konigsspringerzuruckhaltungspolitik" lines were analyzed, and I agree (for what it's worth - I am far from a titled player) that black can be very uncomfortable when white delays Nf6 and instead gets harassed by moves such as g4 harassing black's bishop on f5.

Am I being too greedy by hoping to still employ this idea of delaying Nf6 to avoid having my f pawns doubled. While I would gladly enter into the 9. Qxf6 line above, I am a little concerned about very early Bd2 by white (such as move 5 or 6).  I have lost a lot of blitz games when white doubles my f pawns, and later sacs a bishop or rook at e6 leaving my king in danger in the center.  Also, <GM Prie> were you saying that  black's position in Kramnick-Malakhov French Cup 2004 was bad (early on in the opening phase).  If so, why is black weaker (I didnt appreciate any difference, it seemed pretty much even)?  

I was hoping to avoid some of those situations with doubled f pawn by bailing out with Qb6 as suggested by Martin in his book.  i.e. 1.e4 d5 2.xd5 Qxd5 3.Nf6 Qa4 4.d4 Nf6 5. Bd2 Qb6 7.Bc4 Bf5 (! by Martin and ?! by Emms) where Emms argues that 8.Qe2 is strong for white (8...e6 9.0-0-0 Bd7).

Appreciate anyone's thoughts.  Thank you much.  Enjoying this great site!  

I would direct interested parties to GM Pries recent NIC article. The Qa5 Scandinavian is ok..... for the moment at least.

Yes Bonsai, I can confirm you have been overly depressed   in the similar state of mind I was after my lost game against Apicella. 

Actually, it is difficult to play a line in which you have no winning chances unless the opponent goes crazy... but I can already suggest a couple of improvements for Black in your game : 18...Kb8!? or 21...a6 with the idea 22.b4 b5! or playing a 95% drawn opposite colour bishop position 3 against 2 if White takes the pawn.  

Oh, I almost forgot the most important.
And sometimes these sure of themselves "black experts Grandmasters" but only humans also make mistakes in tactical continuations! 

And this was the case in the conclusion of the NIC77 article (18.Bb4 crushing as in Kurmann-Cornette) to be 'shamefully' corrected in the NIC78 forum when the Nd7-Bg4 idea, on the other hand, remains viable at the moment as in Shirov-Mueller of january's update and Baklan-Prié 2 weeks ago!

Bonsai wrote on 08/19/05 at 12:57:53:


where is it exactly you feel that Pries response to Tiviakovs NIC article "A simple series of moves suffices" falls down bonsai? while i haven't subjected it to rigorous analysis his Bd6 idea seems to offer black a playable game. is there any reason why black has to find something else atm?

Quote:

Admittedly the analysis in the Bobby Ang article seems to be fairly superficial (particularly some of the comments), but he seems to be basing it on that recent NiC article by Tiviakov. And as I said in this other thread http://altmax.com/cgi-local/cpf/YaBB.cgi?board=1e4;action=display;num=1086033596, I do have my doubts about the line that GM Prie has recommended (and played) in response to the Tiviakov article. But if you have suggestions for black, I'd be happy to hear them.

In fact I've actually got another issue, but maybe someone has an answer here:
After 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Bd2 e6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.Qe2 Nd7 11.O-O-O Nb6 12.Bg5 Qg6 Khalifman recommends 13.h4 in the end claiming a slight advantage for white. However I have been wondering, whether 13.d5 might not be even better. The point is 13...Nxc4 14.Qxc4 exd5 15.Rhe1+ Be6 16.Qf4 h6 17.Bh4 Bc5 18.Ne5 Qh5 19.Nd3 and now 19...Bb6 20.Re5 g5 21.Qf6 0-0 22.Bxg5 Bd8 23.Qxh6 Qxh6 24.Bxh6 is about the best defence for black that I found. I don't think black has any serious compensation for his pawn in the final position and the whole line certainly doesn't feel like the usually solid Scandinavian should feel like.

Sorry if this has already been posted somewhere, but does anyone have a reaction to Bobby Ang's recent article at http://www.indochess.com/news_maint_public.php?news_id=510 ; ?

He seems pretty negative on the ...Qd5/...Qa5 Center Counter.

Quote:


Thanks for the answer Bonsai    
One more question if you were so kind

what do you play as Black after 

1)e4 d5 2)e:d5 Qd5 3)Nc3 Qa5 4)Bc4 Nf6 5)d4    ?

Hi, i have a question

1)e4 d5
2)e:d5 Q:d5
3)Nc3  Qa5
4)d4    Nf6
5)Nf3  c6
6)Bd2

Now instead of 6...Bf5 some books give 6...Qb6! (their exclamation mark, not mine )

and  7 Bc4 Bf5 8 O-O

but what about c2 pawn sacrifice 8.Qe2 ?

what should Black play now?

So is it true that the scandanavian is busted?

bonsai What about the move order:
1.e4 d5 2.xd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 c6 5.Bc4  Bf5 6.Nf3 e6 7.Bd2 Qc7?
By delaying Nf6 black has avoided the discovery trick which results in damaged pawns or an offside queen. This move order seem to be fairly resilient.


The knight on e2 is actually fullfilling a number of duties, supporting Nc3, supporting Bf4 and ready to go to g3 with tempo.
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 c6 5.Bc4 Bf5 6.Ne2 e6 7.Bdf4 Nf6 looks like blacks best.
7... Ne7 looks a bit too slow, blocking in the bishop. The bishop does not appear to have a good square to clear to since 7...Bb4 8.a3 and there goes the bishop pair and any congestion white might have had. Nh6 looks insane if black wants a future on the kingside. On the plus side 7...Nf6 8.Qd2 can be met with ..Bb4 and an ending where black has better structure and white has the bishop pair.

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 c6 5.Bc4 Bf5 6.Ne2 e6  7.Bd2 and now:
7..Moving the Bf8 drops the bishop loses the bishop pair.
7..Nd7 8.0-0 0-0-0 looks insane.
All roads lead to Nf6 and Qc7.
7..Nf6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.Nxf6 Qxf6 10.0-0 looks a little better for white.
7..Nf6 8.Nd5 Qc7 9.Nxf6 xf6 is remniscant of a certain caro variation only white is better developed though not with an optimal setup.
7.Qc7 8.Bf4 and whites development taking on mythical proprtions though black still has scandinavian solidity.
8..Bd6 9.Bxd6 Qxd6 trades pieces.
8...Qmove leaves bishop on f4 preventing a pawn rush but I think black is getting to far behind in development.

Of these two lines I think the latter is actually better. It takes an extra tempo to get to f4 but black has trouble finding a good spot for his queen. Back to a5 and it's white who's up a tempo.

Top
1)Can black get away with a e5 setup after d3? Maybe with the bishop remaining on c8. Hmm. No, it looks dangerous. Then again I don;t have Fritz on me.
2)Can black keep the bishop on c6 and argue that e3 is insufficiently agressive without a bishop to hook against. (Though now that I think about it even after white expends a tempo plaing d4 it looks like a Caro line where white has accelerated development)
3)e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. d3 c6 6. Bd2 Qc7 7. Qe2 Nd7 9. g4 Bg6 10. f4. I stopped payng attention after a peek at how both games continued. Black's position is best evaluated as sucky although some might disagree and instead call it crappy. Who knew that the half hearted d pawn push carried such venom? It appears standard scandinavian play leads to terrible positions after d3. Black will have to settle for one of the above lines.

Quote:

While your post is quite difficult to read, I believe you are suggesting to play
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 c6 5.Bc4 Bf5 6.Ne2 
In that move order black should avoid 6...Nf6 and can play 6...e6 leaving the options Ng8-e7 and Ng8-h6 open to counter the possible white Ng3 + f2-f4-f5 plan. Playing 6.Bd2 (or 7.Bd2) here is fairly harmless, I think, and black could probably just sidestep with his queen, because white is not very well placed to exploit another loss of time by black. If black plays as above, 6.Bd2 planning d4-d5 as soon as possible is strong.

However here and even more so after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 the move 5.Nf3 is really the main line and that's for a good reason (5.Bd2 is "just" fairly interesting, but e.g. 5.Bc4 is just no good now).

Against 5...Bg4 the main line with 6.h3 Bh5 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5 is clearly best and against 5...Bf5 (or 5...c6 followed by 6...Bf5) the lines with Bc4+Bd2+Nd5 (followed by Nxf6) are the ones that pose the greatest problems for black.

My impression is that white has a chance of getting an advantage that is possibly slightly larger than the one he is usually entitled to in more mainline openings.

Quote:


It's difficult to say what white can achieve, but particularly in the Qa5 system black is playing a dangerous game of trying to get easy development in exchange for giving white a lead in development. 

PS: I'm sure someone will soon go on about the merits of 4...e5, but it's a move I've never personally liked much (that's without saying anything about its objective merits), but potentially one can get rid of that possibility by playing 4.Nf3 followed by 5.d4?

I believe x suggested we start such a thread and since NCO is (rather unusually) not too useful I'm up for hearing what everyone's opinion of the strongest lines for white are. I'm also interested in scandinavian players' opinions on what those strongest lines are and how they meet them. (Though I'm not terribly interested in how can just "play natural moves without knowing theory", how "most white players don't play the best moves and so black equalizes easily, and other such statements in a certain 100 post topic.)
After 1.e4 d5 2.xd5 Nf6 I've never had trouble after 3.d4, obtaining an easy edge after Nx, Qx and Bg4.
After 2...Qxd4 3.Nc3 we have
3...Qd6 I suspect the key here is a move order that forces a6/c6 followed by g3/Ne2 and Bf4. g3 seems a bit slow but I've herd someone mention it was Emms recomendation and I can see a fianchetto being useful against 0-0-0. Isn't it a bit too slow for advantage against 0-0 plans by black though? Ne2 is puts question to Black's light squared bishop after Ng3 and can support a rush with the f pawn. Is  there significant downside?

3...Qa5 Move orders move orders. What are the linked moves? (By this I mean if white plays x black better play y or white can punish with z) 
My current setup up is:
d4/ Bc5/ Ne2/ Bd2 against c6/Bf4/Nf6. After 7...e6 the queen wastes more time on 9..Qxf6 or the pawn structure is damaged on xf6. After 7...Qc7 8.Bf4 the bishop moves again but the so does the queen and she has trouble finding a good square. Perhaps better is forgoing Bd2 and playing d4/Bc5/Ne2/0-0 against c6/Bf4/Nf6. Now e6 is met with Bf4. Unless I am missing a compelling Nf3 setup black can likely get this anyway by delaying Nf6. I suspect this setup is not most challenging but rather aimed at natural black moves, though I have obtained significant advantage against a few masters. What are the most challenging Nf3 setups (and move orders of course)

3...Qd8 NCO gives convincing lines against g6 and Ng4 ideas but what about a Bc5? Natural moves give white a healthy lead in development against a fairly solid setup but what is the BEST way for white to secure an advantage.

3....Qe5+ Sure Ne2 is the way to go, cutting short Black's plan of playing c6/Qc7 and trying to reach a Qa5 line with the White bishop on Be2 instead of Bc5.

Yes. I'm slightly partial to Ne2 but thats only because it trips up black's plans slightly and because NCO is not very detailed with the scandinavian so I don't know other challenging plans . . .yet.

Some might scoff and say the scandinavian is too sound to be refuted Englund gambit style. They may be right but if something as main line as the Open Lopez contains a Ng5 then there ought to be was white can obtain strong presure against the Scandinavian.