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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Leko-Topalov (Read 22149 times)
Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #38 - 01/03/08 at 13:23:57
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Dink Heckler wrote on 03/07/07 at 22:05:49:
Confirm that the Q vs R+Ps is drawn.

It's analogous to:

http://www.apronus.com/chess/diagramik.php?a1=darksquare.gif&a2=whitequeenonligh...

old analysis by Guretzky-Cornitz, 1854, quoted in  Dvoretsky p. 254 shows that this position is drawn with very little trouble.


Dvoretsky's latest Chess Cafe column discusses this position:


Galkin - Timofeev 2005

where knowledge of the above theoretical position is essential. Both sides made serious and instructive errors. The link is http://www.chesscafe.com/dvoretsky/dvoretsky.htm, until next month, when it will move to the archive.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #37 - 03/14/07 at 23:05:15
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I was thinking that 58 g3 allows ...Rc3+ and b3; allowing Black to advance the pawn for free like this seems like its looking for trouble.

I was concentrating on the rather passive 58 Ke2; not very thematic to try to sit in this type of position, but it seems to me each of Black's tries (K over to c7, g4 or h4 have their own drawbacks).

Cry I was in the middle of posting a whole bunch of analysis to back up this handwaving assertion when some rash keyboard sequence erased the whole thing.

I suppose that Black can try to 'exploit' the absence of g3 by playing ...h4 (why play g3 if not to prevent this?)
58...h4 but then something like
59 Ke2 Ke7 (...g4, 60 kd2 g3, 61 Kd3 Rf4, 62 Ke3)
60 Kd2 Kd7
61 Kd3 Rf4
62 Rg6
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #36 - 03/13/07 at 15:40:31
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Dink, sorry I haven't got back to you. The idea that Rh8xh4 could save White annoys me so deeply I've been pretending it's not happening - just looks so much by eye as though there can't be time. So I've been sulking, but I do mean to return to it.

With regard to your last question I agree this is a key moment, and I do have difficulty in understanding why g3 wasn't played. Of course if Black could meet that with...Re4 and g4 hxg4 hxg4 (leaving h4 out of it for the moment) then he would be winning, but I don't see he can do that for several reasons.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #35 - 03/13/07 at 15:00:35
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Anyone...anyone...Bueller??
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #34 - 03/07/07 at 22:22:30
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I have a question:



Position after 57...Kf7

Leko played the commital 58 g4.
Is this a good idea, or would he have been better off biding his time?

I think, in terms of the didactic value of this ending, that this is a key question, because this type of difficult decision comes up frequently in similar positions.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #33 - 03/07/07 at 22:05:49
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Confirm that the Q vs R+Ps is drawn.

It's analogous to:



old analysis by Guretzky-Cornitz, 1854, quoted in  Dvoretsky p. 254 shows that this position is drawn with very little trouble.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #32 - 03/06/07 at 22:26:22
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JonHecht wrote on 03/06/07 at 02:00:28:
My idea is that without the white pawn, with the black pawns on h2 and b3, black rook on h1 white rook behind black pawn and king on b2 it is a dead draw.


True enough, but Black is not going to oblige by playing ...h2.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #31 - 03/06/07 at 22:09:12
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Wrt Micawber's 73...Kd5:

A)
74 Rb8? Rc3
75 g5 Ke6
76) Rb6+ Kf7
77) Kd2 Rxh3
78) Rh6 Rh2+
79) Kc1 h3
80) Kb1 Kg7 and we have seen this movie before....its the reciprocal zugzwang position.

B) 74 Rf8(!, I think...)

B1)74...Ke4
75) g5  Rc3
76) Kd2 b2
77) Rb8 Rxh3
78) g6 Rh2+
79) Kc3 Rg2
80) Rxb2 h3
81) Rb4+ Kf3
82) Rh4 Rg3
83) Kd4 = 

B2) 74...Rc4
75) Kd2 b2
76) Rb8 Rxh3
77) Kc2 Rh2+
78) Kb1 h3
79) Rb3 Ke5
80) g5 Kf5
81) Rg3 Kg6
82) Ka2 = 

  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #30 - 03/06/07 at 21:55:48
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John's plan looks quite convincing; White's king is so badly placed....which leads to the question: was g4, fixing the pawns in this manner, a bad idea?

John, one little question about your line:

Maybe, against the odds, there is salvation in the h-pawn grab line, 
after 71...Rf4



instead of 72 Re8, I want to try 72 Kg3, with two possibilities:

(A) 72 ...b2
73 Kxf4 b1(Q)
74 Rh5 drawing, I think? (I'm really bad with these Q vs R and P(s) endings...)



(B)72...Rb4
73 Rc8+ Rc4
74 Rb8  b2
75 Rxb2 Kxb2
76 h4 draw(?)



Obviously, this has to be analysed out, but my pfaffing around convinced me that it should be a draw...Black's problem is that bringing the K back via d4 allows White to cross the fourth rank.

Sample line:

76...Kc3
77 h5 Kd4
78 Kf4 Kd5+
79 Kf5 Kd6
80 h6 Ke7
81 h7 Rc8
82 Kg6   and it all works by one tempo.

{edited: inserted diagram 1, expanded line B}
« Last Edit: 03/07/07 at 13:13:24 by Dink Heckler »  
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Willempie
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #29 - 03/06/07 at 08:35:48
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IMJohnCox wrote on 03/05/07 at 23:28:41:
After Willempie's 60...Ke7 61 Rg6 Kd6 62 Rxg5 Kc6 63 Rg8 Rf7 64 Rc8+ can Black just not keep advancing with the king? White can check it down to b2, but then I don't see what he can do - a dash with the g-pawn is doomed since Black just comes back on the rank with the rook (eg 64....Kd5 65 Rd8+ Kc4 66 Rc8+ Kd3 67 Rd8+ Kc2 68 Rc8+ Kb2 69 g5 b3 70 g6 Rf6 71 Rg8 Kb1 72 g7 b2 73 Kh2 Rf7, and then ..Rc7 and queens).  A grab for the h-pawn also just fails, I think: 69 Rh8 b3 70 Rxh4 Kc3 71 Rh8 Rf4! 72 Re8 Rb4 73 Re1 b2 74 Kf3 b1Q 75 Rxb1 Rxb1 and I think Black is just there in time: 76 h4 Kd4 77 Kf4 Kd5 78 Kf5 Rf1+ 19 Kg6 Rf4 and Black wins. I don't see what else White can do.

Hmm seems you are right, so far for my analysis Cry

Seems it all fails on the Rf6-g6+ idea. So it is back to the drawing board and consult my books this evening as I cant stand it to be proven wrong Grin
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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JonHecht
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #28 - 03/06/07 at 02:00:28
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My idea is that without the white pawn, with the black pawns on h2 and b3, black rook on h1 white rook behind black pawn and king on b2 it is a dead draw.
  
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #27 - 03/05/07 at 23:28:41
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Right again, Dink! My inadequateometer is having a field day.

I suppose after 1...Rh2 2 Kb1 also draws since 2...h3 3 Rh6 Kf7 4 Rf6+ Kg7 5 Rh6 gives your mutual zugzwang, so it's not easy for White actually to go wrong. Although my computer (yes, I have now resorted to one of these!) makes me feel better by deeming itself two pawns up with 3...Rh1+ 4 Kb2 h2. Which it is, of course. Funny - the minute it takes the g-pawn it must get into its knowledge base and the evaluation drops to zero.

So rewinding, as you suggest, could Black have done better with my proposed 60...Ke7? Or Micawber's 72 (?) ...Kd5?

After Willempie's 60...Ke7 61 Rg6 Kd6 62 Rxg5 Kc6 63 Rg8 Rf7 64 Rc8+ can Black just not keep advancing with the king? White can check it down to b2, but then I don't see what he can do - a dash with the g-pawn is doomed since Black just comes back on the rank with the rook (eg 64....Kd5 65 Rd8+ Kc4 66 Rc8+ Kd3 67 Rd8+ Kc2 68 Rc8+ Kb2 69 g5 b3 70 g6 Rf6 71 Rg8 Kb1 72 g7 b2 73 Kh2 Rf7, and then ..Rc7 and queens).  A grab for the h-pawn also just fails, I think: 69 Rh8 b3 70 Rxh4 Kc3 71 Rh8 Rf4! 72 Re8 Rb4 73 Re1 b2 74 Kf3 b1Q 75 Rxb1 Rxb1 and I think Black is just there in time: 76 h4 Kd4 77 Kf4 Kd5 78 Kf5 Rf1+ 19 Kg6 Rf4 and Black wins. I don't see what else White can do.
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #26 - 03/05/07 at 21:09:41
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IMJohnCox wrote on 03/05/07 at 19:06:54:
So maybe White should meet 1...Rh2 by 2 Rf3. Then if 2...b2 3 Rf6 and Rh6 is in time and has destroyed this zugzwang, and if 2...h3 3 Rxb3 is adequate. At least I think it's adequate - yes of course it is; the black king's still on e7 so just Kf7 4 Rg3 defends the g-pawn. Maybe that's what you meant by 'without White's cooperation' and you're way ahead of me, Dink?


Yes, I was thinking along these lines...still, 1...Rh2 gives White one last chance to go wrong, I suppose.

So we have to rewind; any earlier winning attempts for Black?
  
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Dink Heckler
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #25 - 03/05/07 at 20:49:36
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IMJohnCox wrote on 03/05/07 at 19:01:19:


Can't Black to move win though? 1...Kf7 2 Rf6+ Kg8 3 Rg6+ Kh7 4 Rh6+ Kg7? A sort of quadrilateral triangulation.



No, the h-file is mined:
3...Kh7
4 Rb6 Rg2 allows the switchback
5 Rh6+
  
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Willempie
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Re: Leko-Topalov
Reply #24 - 03/05/07 at 19:45:25
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I think I finally nailed it. Cool

My initial idea of pushing g5 is wrong I think. I think white can draw by keep aiming at the b-pawn and annoy the king. One line runs:
60.Kg2 Ke7 61.Rg6 Kd7 62.Rxg5 Kc6 63.Rg8 Rf7 64.Rc8+ (Maybe Rb8 directly works as well) Rc7 65.Rb8 Kc5 (Rc7 is a draw) 66.Kf3 Kc4 67.g5 b3 68.Kg4 Kc3 69.Kxh4 Kc2 70.g6 b2 71.Kg5 b1Q 72.Rxb1 Kxb1 and this should be a draw, though you can manage to lose this as black.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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