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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C03,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5 (Read 20647 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: C03,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5
Reply #25 - 12/01/24 at 21:52:48
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The universal system can come about from many move orders including:
1e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. c3 c5 6. Ngf3 Nc6 7. Bd3
and
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. e5 Nfd7 6. c3 Nc6 7. Bd3
Several authors have analyzed 7... Be7 8. O-O g5. This can continue with 9dc Nde5
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I checked to see how this was working out in games.
For 2024: 
1-0, 5
1/2-1/2, 1
0-1, 11
For the prior 5 years for players rated above 2200:
1-0, 10
1/2-1/2, 3
0-1, 9

The play is complex, but Black is doing well in human games. IM Renato Terry has played the Black pieces several times with success.
  
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Re: C03,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5
Reply #24 - 03/12/12 at 21:52:08
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This gives me the Nb1-Nc3 resource, doesn't it? In practice Black will be able to play for some tricks but in this case i believe in the soundness of White. Sorry for beeing no-concrete this time.
  
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MNb
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Re: C003,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5
Reply #23 - 03/12/12 at 16:32:42
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/12/12 at 11:32:18:
White plays dxc5 with advantage. This is so simple...

Well, yes. Equally simple though is the remedy: exchange on d4 first and only then play ...g5. What do you think?
  
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Re: C003,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5
Reply #22 - 03/12/12 at 11:32:18
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dom wrote on 03/04/12 at 18:12:18:
Just a "thread reloaded" to post a comment about Gwain Jones's update about Universal System and the game Howell-Short,4NCL 2011..

After 8.a3!? I believe too that 8..Qb6!? is one good alternative but with the a5 pawn push replaced with a g5 pawn push.

8.a3 Qb6 9.oo g5 (9...a5 and now 10.dxc5 (or 10.Re1) Bxc5 11.Qe2 g5 with chances for both sides)  

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8...g5!?.

Now a further b4 for White will doomed the d4 pawn, a "coward" h3 is welcomed with a Be7 move in return, a dxc5 doesn't improve the position because after Nxc5 White cannot play the Nb3 move; a c4-g4-cxd5-e6-fxe6-Bg6+ sequence makes the king escape via the d8 square...



This is "trusting my computer too much" aproach to the position. After White's a3 if Black doesn't play ...c4 quickly (he can afford a move like Short's ...a5 for a tempo only because White has to castle) White plays dxc5 with advantage. This is so simple...
  
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Re: C03,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5
Reply #21 - 03/04/12 at 21:32:26
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MNb wrote on 03/04/12 at 21:15:54:
dom wrote on 03/04/12 at 21:01:33:
It will leads to a special Korchoi's gambit after 9...cxd4 10.cxd4 Nxd4 11.Nxd4 Qxd4 12.Nf3

I had 9...cxd4 10.cxd4 g5 or a5 in mind.


OK understood...good ideas. I prefer a5, (I can add the transposition 8.a3 a5 9.oo cxd4 10.cxd4 Qb6)

  
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Re: C03,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5
Reply #20 - 03/04/12 at 21:15:54
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dom wrote on 03/04/12 at 21:01:33:
It will leads to a special Korchoi's gambit after 9...cxd4 10.cxd4 Nxd4 11.Nxd4 Qxd4 12.Nf3

I had 9...cxd4 10.cxd4 g5 or a5 in mind.
  
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Re: C03,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5
Reply #19 - 03/04/12 at 21:01:33
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@Mnb: no objection at all about cxd4...

It will leads to a special Korchoi's gambit after 9...cxd4 10.cxd4 Nxd4 11.Nxd4 Qxd4 12.Nf3

and now 12...Qg4 will leave Black's queenside with low protection (usually White proceeds here with the help or c1 file)  and 12..Qb6 13.Qa4 is a transposition of Korchnoi gambit with a3 and h6 included. 

With a3 Black cannot play Qb4 to delay White's queen access to the kingside via the 4 rank (one idea seen in one game with a5 instead of h6). Moves to follow for example: 12...Qb6 13.Qa4 a6 14.Bd2 (or 14.b4 King-Ravikumar,UK championship 1981) Qc6 15.Qh4 (15.Qg4 Nc5 16.Bc2 Bd7 17.Rac1 Qb6 18.b4 Na4 19.Be3 Qd8 20.Nh4 h5 21.Qg3 Nc3 22.Rfe1) Qb6 16.b4 Qd8 17.Qh5 +/-

White has little initiative with Korchnoi gambit positions, the compensation for the given pawn.
  
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Re: C03,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5
Reply #18 - 03/04/12 at 20:04:01
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Are there any objections against including x...cxd4 y.cxd4 ? In general I'm not very enthusiastic about the positions after dxc5.
  
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Re: C003,C05: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 10..g5
Reply #17 - 03/04/12 at 18:12:18
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Just a "thread reloaded" to post a comment about Gwain Jones's update about Universal System and the game Howell-Short,4NCL 2011..

After 8.a3!? I believe too that 8..Qb6!? is one good alternative but with the a5 pawn push replaced with a g5 pawn push.

8.a3 Qb6 9.oo g5 (9...a5 and now 10.dxc5 (or 10.Re1) Bxc5 11.Qe2 g5 with chances for both sides)  

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *


8...g5!?.

Now a further b4 for White will doomed the d4 pawn, a "coward" h3 is welcomed with a Be7 move in return, a dxc5 doesn't improve the position because after Nxc5 White cannot play the Nb3 move; a c4-g4-cxd5-e6-fxe6-Bg6+ sequence makes the king escape via the d8 square...

  
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Re: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 - 10..g5
Reply #16 - 09/15/10 at 10:15:48
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ship wrote on 12/01/09 at 23:05:01:
Thx for this interesting line from Dom. 

One line i feel favours white is 15.Nxg3 Nxd4 16.Qg4  Bb4 17.Bg5 Rg8.

After the forced sequence(forced for black) 18 Bxd8 Rxg4 19 Nxg4 Bxe1 20 Bg5! Bb4 21 Nh5 we have an  endgame where the pawn structure in theory is favourable for black, but where white has an initiative because black has a hard time coordinating. White can put black under a considerable positional pressure by playing a quick f4, land a knight on f6 and use his rook actively.


I've had a look at this endgame, and although the engines give White an advantage, I'm not sure that his initiative isn't going to peter out into nothing. Blacks basic plan is to put his Bishop on e7 after a check on f6 his king goes to d8, the other Bishop to d7. For the moment I haven't found a very convincing continuation for White.

As for the other try of 14...Nxd4 15.Qxg4 Bc5 16.Bg5 Qb6 17.Be3!(Knaak) I've put a lot of time in trying to rehabilitate this for Black and come to the conclusion that I just dont fancy the line for Black, there is always a problem with the king safety.

Edit - another question is why I am trying to rehabilitate this line when 9.a4 for White instead of 9.Re1 is another awkward move to meet, but one step at a time!
  
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Re: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 - 10..g5
Reply #15 - 09/13/10 at 18:02:20
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Tolotos wrote on 09/13/10 at 16:09:33:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 a6 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bd3 c5 7.c3 Nc6 8.0-0 g5 9.Nb3!
How can black equalize after this move? 

Looks a good try, although even ...h6 looks reasonable. All the lines taking a piece look risky, although no doubt Rybka might come up with something....
  
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Re: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 - 10..g5
Reply #14 - 09/13/10 at 16:14:39
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This was analysed by IM Rendle in chess.com with the conclusion that Black is OK. I remember finding an improvement over his main line for White at some point and i got the impresion that Black cannot equalise easily. But the position is very unclear! Another try is 8...b5 after which i think that 9.a4! is the way for White but again nothning clear.
  
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Re: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 - 10..g5
Reply #13 - 09/13/10 at 16:09:33
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1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 a6 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bd3 c5 7.c3 Nc6 8.0-0 g5 9.Nb3!
How can black equalize after this move?
  
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Re: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 - 10..g5
Reply #12 - 09/13/10 at 10:24:43
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Yes the new idea of combining ...a6 and ...g5 is very interesting, and recently played by guru Gurevich so we all need to pay attention.

btw dom your idea of 14...g3 was very interesting. The endgame in the Bg5 line looks tenable to me, will try and have another look later.

Regarding 14...Nxd4, which I thought seemed the simplest the trickiest problem seems to be an old recommendation of Knaak from a 1985 game which has as yet to be played: 15.Qxg4 Bc5 16.Bg5 Qb6 and now instead of 17.Qf4 which is usually played here 17.Be3!(Knaak) leads to a problematic position. I analysed 17...Nxe5 a bit and didn't like it - so far I've not found a convincing way for Black to continue here, so this is yet another critical position.
  
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Re: Tarrasch Universal System with a5 - 10..g5
Reply #11 - 09/08/10 at 15:53:35
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Vitiugov's book claims an easy advantage for White in many lines of this system (including 9.a4!)

Instead of this, better is the systems with a6+g5 instead of Be7+g5, as shown by IM Rendle in chess.com
  
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