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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C40: New move in the Latvian (Read 164413 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #132 - 07/10/11 at 13:52:31
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g2-g4 wrote on 07/10/11 at 13:14:02:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/10/11 at 12:49:11:
But there is also Cordel's rule: in a given position, there is usually either one single best move, or three good moves. So in a position with two good moves, the analysis has to go on (but not necessarily today). 
Cheesy

So, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 we have "one single best" 2...Nf6, haven't we? Thus, there's no need to seek for the 3-rd "good move". Smiley

Once I asked Bent Larsen whether computers are reducing the number of playable lines or increase them, and he replied that the latter was the case. So maybe Cordel's rule is a bit dated. Unfortunately, modern opening book writers are no big help in this respect. Someone should develop new helpful rules like Tartakower's or Cordel's. OK, there's Markovich...
  
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g2-g4
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #131 - 07/10/11 at 13:14:02
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/10/11 at 12:49:11:
But there is also Cordel's rule: in a given position, there is usually either one single best move, or three good moves. So in a position with two good moves, the analysis has to go on (but not necessarily today). 
Cheesy

So, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 we have "one single best" 2...Nc6, haven't we? Thus, there's no need to seek for the 3-rd "good move". Smiley
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #130 - 07/10/11 at 12:49:11
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g2-g4 wrote on 07/10/11 at 12:29:02:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/06/11 at 00:16:11:
Very impressive analysis, g2-g4! I am grateful to you that you shot down my little novelty in such an overwhelming way - there is little doubt left now that a possible rescue has to start very, very early...

As early as at the move number two? Wink

No, according to Tartakower in the first three moves you can play everything, and he wasn't talking "half-moves". Thus 3...Qf6 and 3...Nf6 might well both be sound. (I don't take T.'s "insights" as dogma, of course. Many moves ruin Black in move 3, or even earlier. Still...)

So I could friendly co-exist with AMM. But there is also Cordel's rule: in a given position, there is usually either one single best move, or three good moves. So in a position with two good moves, the analysis has to go on (but not necessarily today). 
Cheesy
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #129 - 07/10/11 at 12:29:02
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/06/11 at 00:16:11:
Very impressive analysis, g2-g4! I am grateful to you that you shot down my little novelty in such an overwhelming way - there is little doubt left now that a possible rescue has to start very, very early...

As early as at the move number two? Wink
AMM wrote on 07/05/11 at 23:09:00:

I have told Key serie of moves is 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6

I have a bit rudimentary analysis of what can happen after 6.d4. If there's no known refutation of 6.d4 - I'll share it. Black (in my humble analysis) doesn't manage to equalize.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #128 - 07/08/11 at 01:30:41
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It is still true that 4.Ng1 should give White some advantage, though not as much as 3.Nxe5. - The variation 4...Qg5 given in my old booklet is worse than 4...Nf6. Still, it remains interesting that Philidor CG and Latvian Gambit can lead to the same position.  


  
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Fllg
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #127 - 07/06/11 at 20:05:52
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From what I remember after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.exf5 e4 4.Ng1 the main line given by Stefan Bücker was 4... Qg5 5.d3 Qxf5 6.dxe4 Qxe4+ 7.Be2 hoping to gain time by attacking the Black Queen in the center. After 4... Nf6 5.g4 Bc5 6.Bg2 should be considered instead of 6.g5.

I find the line interesting since the position after 4.Ng1 is a reversed KG with a tempo up (the move ... e5-e4). White hopes to prove that the Black pawn on e4 is actually worse than on e5.
  
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AMM
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #126 - 07/06/11 at 19:39:05
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Fllg wrote on 07/06/11 at 07:32:50:
Stefan, what is the current status of your old recommendation (in "Gambit 59") 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.exf5 e4 3.Ng1 ?

I admit I never had to face the Latvian so far but intended to play this line. Have you found a satisfactory reply for Black?


NOT Stefan Buecker (!?), but I think his old reccomendation would be already possible. A relatively "good" defence is 4..Nf6 5.g4 Bc5 6.g5 0-0!? ( "Inversed Muzio gambit"; see King's gambit ) 7.d4!? - better than 7.gxf6 directly - 7..exd3 8.gxf6 Qxf6 etc. with game for both sides. There are some games with this moves. The other ones 6..d5?! "inversed Ghulam-Khassim gambit" and 6..Nc6?! "inversed McDonell gambit" are more dubtious, but of course they are curious too.

Personally I think best is trasposing to Philidor Countergambit of Philidor Defence with 3..d6; thus, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 so in Latvian gambit 3..e4 4.Ne5 Nf6 5.Be2 Classical Line is favourable as White.

Real debate is 3.Nxe5 Qf6; positional play with 6..d5!? has been analyzed deeply in many posts: last corresp. games turn back on old 5..Qg6

  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #125 - 07/06/11 at 07:32:50
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Stefan, what is the current status of your old recommendation (in "Gambit 59") 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.exf5 e4 3.Ng1 ?

I admit I never had to face the Latvian so far but intended to play this line. Have you found a satisfactory reply for Black?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #124 - 07/06/11 at 00:16:11
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Very impressive analysis, g2-g4! I am grateful to you that you shot down my little novelty in such an overwhelming way - there is little doubt left now that a possible rescue has to start very, very early... 

AMM wrote on 07/05/11 at 23:09:00:
All very pretty "g2-g4" but perhaps 13..Bc5!? 14.Bxh7+ Kh8 is a best defence, f.i. : 15.Bf4 Qxb2 16.Qg6 d6 17.Rab1 Qf6 18.Qh5 Bg4 19.Qxg4 Kxh7 20.Rxb7 Rae8 with counterplay for the pawn

There is also 15.Be3, no compensation visible here. 

AMM, I am not 100% convinced yet that 3...Nf6 is wrong. The move has some charm for me as an otb-player, since a clear majority of my opponents would probably play 4.exf5. But I admit that for finding good ideas after 3...Nf6 we probably have to wait for an advanced kind of chess software which understands "Latvian pawn structures", viz:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 d6 6.Bf7+ Kd8 7.Bb3 dxe5 8.dxe5+ Nbd7 9.exf6 Qxe4+ 10.Kf1 gxf6 11.Nc3 Qc6 12.Qd3 Qa6 13.Qxa6 bxa6

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On a more serious note, lines like the following might well be playable in OTB chess against an unprepared opponent. But in correspondence chess it would be suicide: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.Nc3 Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 8.0-0 Bd6!? 9.g3 Kd8 10.Re1 Bb4 11.Bf4 Qc5 12.Nd5! Qxc4 13.Bxc7+ Qxc7 14.Nxc7 Kxc7 

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15.c3 Bf8 16.e5 Ne4 17.Qd5 Ng5 18.e6 dxe6 19.Qc4+ Kd8 20.Red1+ Ke8 21.Qa4+ Ke7 22.Qh4 and wins, +-. It could be interesting to identify variations with trap potential (Calthrop Coefficient), for OTB use only. 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #123 - 07/05/11 at 23:09:00
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All very pretty "g2-g4" but perhaps 13..Bc5!? 14.Bxh7+ Kh8 is a best defence, f.i. : 15.Bf4 Qxb2 16.Qg6 d6 17.Rab1 Qf6 18.Qh5 Bg4 19.Qxg4 Kxh7 20.Rxb7 Rae8 with counterplay for the pawn

I have told Key serie of moves is 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 or 5..Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? ; all rest of variations seems very dubtious nowadays even 6..c6?! last attempt until few time ago ( see previous posts ).

Maybe 3.Nxe5 Nf6 is playable with the defence of my first words in this thread, but personally I would prefer to analyze in depth known lines with 3..Qf6
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #122 - 07/04/11 at 22:25:53
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After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 (or 6.Nc3 Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 8.0-0 fxe4) Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 8.Nc3 fxe4 9.Nd5 Nxd5 10.Bxd5 Bd6 11.g3 c6 12.Bxe4 0-0 13.Qd3 h6 instead of 14.c3 b6 etc White has more direct assault 14.Bd2!?
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14...Bc5 15.Bc3 Qd6 (15...Qg5 16.b4 Bb6 17.Qd6 or even 17.Bh7+!? Kh8 18.Qd6) 16.Qc4+ Qe6 17.Qxc5 Qxe4 18.Rae1 with a clear edge.
14...Qf6 15.Rae1 (now 16.Bc3 is a threat again, and immediate 15.Bc3 would be premature due to 15...Be5) Bd5 with a pretty much forced variant 16.Bh7+ Kh8 17.Rxe5 Qxe5 18.Bc3 Qe6 (18...Qg5? 19.Re1 and 20.Re5, and 18...Qe7 transposes after 19.Re1 Qf7) 19.Re1 Qf7 20.Bg6 Qxf2+ 21.Kh1 Kg8 (21...d5? 22.Re7 or 21...Qc5? 22.Re5 +-) 22.Re7 Qf3+ (22...Qf1+ is essentially the same) 23.Qxf3 Rxf3 24.Kg2 Rf6 25.Bxf6 gxf6 26.Kf3 or 26.Kh3
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Black is paralyzed. White King seems to easily capture kingside pawns.
But probably I have missed something.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #121 - 07/04/11 at 13:18:32
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My third article on the Latvian Gambit http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss46.pdf , written for Chesscafe, had the following main line: 

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Nf6 4. Bc4 Qe7 5. d4 Nc6 6. 0-0 Nxe5 7. dxe5 Qxe5 8. exf5 Qxf5 9. Nc3 Kd8 10. Bd3 Qh5 11. Qxh5 Nxh5 12. Bg5+ Be7 13. Bxe7+ Kxe7 14. Rfe1+ Kd8 15. Nd5 g6 16.g4! and so on, with serious problems for Black (+/-). Apparently the 15th move is a mistake. The development 15...d6! is more plausible:

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16. Be2 g6 (16...Nf6?! seems weaker) 17. Bxh5 gxh5 18. Rad1 Bf5 White is only slightly better. White can play differently, e.g. 16.Re3 g6 17.Be2 Rf8, but again this looks like +=, better than my former main line.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #120 - 02/07/11 at 01:05:20
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Conquistador wrote on 02/04/11 at 23:41:12:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bc5 10.b4 Bd6 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Nb5 Qd7 and now:
13.Qh5+ should be looked at.

13.Qh5+ Kf8 14.Qf3+ Nf6 15.Bf4 Bxf4 16.Qxf4 Na6 17.Rfe1 Qd8 18.Re3 Bd7 19.Nd6 Rb8 20.Rae1 Nc7 21.c4! explodes the position for black.
17...Kg8!? may be an improvement, although I believe that 18.Nd6! is powerful and should lead to similar lines to the above.


This topic has been refuted previously as White colour with the game Melchor-Paiva Moreira, cr e-mail, LADAC thema Final, 2010/11, 1-0, 39 but in different way: 9..Bc5 10.b4! ( Stuart James ) 10..Bd6 11.Re1 Ne7 12.Nexd5! cxd5 13.Nb5 Bxb4 ( 13..0-0 14.Nxd6 Qxf2+ 15.Kh1 Bg4 16.Qd2 Qf6 -16..Qxd2 17.Bxd2; 16..Qh4 17.Bb2 - 17.Qg5! ) 14.Rb1! ( Terenin's new move ) 14..0-0 15.Rxb4 Qxf2+ 16.Kh1 Nbc6 17.Be3 Qf6 18.Rf4 +- Qxf4 ( 18..Bf5 19.Bxf5 Nxf5 20.Bc5 ) 19.Bxf4 Rxf4 20.Nc7 Bg4 21.Bxh7+! etc., but of course yor new analysis 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Nb5 Qd7 ( is known from long time ago 12..Bc7 or 12..Bxb4 are not sufficient either ) 13.Qh5+! N etc. is absolutely valid ( instead of my previous 13.Bg5? Nf6 14.Re1+ Kf8! etc. ). Anyway, your idea 17..Kg8 is also loser, for instance: 18.Nd6 Nc7 19.Bf5 Qd8 20.Bxc8 Rxc8 21.c4! with idea Nf5 or simplest 21.Nxc8 Qxc8 22.Re7 Nce8 23.Qe3

Ja, ja, ja !; Conquistador, you were the initiator of this debate and finally has found former and known Diemer's idea 6..c6?! published in all books as Main Line seems to be refuted and we must return to the first of your messages: Unique Black move is 6..d5!? already analyzed by Kretainis, you and myself and over I will write soon something more. ( Remember idea of Stefan Bucker 3.Nxe5 Nf6 to try to save the gambit, extensively analyzed in the Horizons has also been rejected )

Thanks for your analysia !, I see you want destroy Carthage !

Alejandro Melchor ( Barcelona, Spain )
amelchormunoz@gmail.com   
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #119 - 02/07/11 at 00:04:25
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Conquistador wrote on 02/04/11 at 22:59:56:
In the line you gave AMM, I propose an improvement.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bd6 10.Nexd5 cxd5 11.Nb5 Bc7 12.Re1+ Kd8 13.Bg5+ Nf6 14.Be4 Re8 15.Bxd5 Rxe1+ 16.Qxe1 Bxh2+ 17.Kf1 Qe8 18.Qa5+ to keep queens on the board.

An example line

18...b6 19.Qb4 a5 20.Qc4 Qxb5 21.Qxb5 Ba6 22.Bxf6+ gxf6 23.Qxa6 Rxa6 24.g3 Ra7 25.Kg2 Bxg3 26.fxg3 when black's position is full of weaknesses.  Can black hold this position?



Perhaps you are right, but the resulting ending after 26th White's move of Rook and Bishop vs. Rook and Knight with four pawns both players offers more technical difficulty that the line of I. Terenin ( with Novelty 14.Be4! ) of my game against Borrmann, which is simpler and easy to play with an ending where the White initiative is more clear. In any case, also 9..Bd6 is in the tightrope.

Another recent game in this line, analyzed above, where Black tested ..Qd7 ( instead 11..Bc7 ) has continued 10.Nexd5 cxd5 11.Nb5 Qd7? 12.Bg5! ( I. Terenin, better than known 12.Re1+ Kf8! - but not 12..Kd8? 13.Bg5+ trasposing to the game - 13.Qf3+ Nf6 14.Bg5 Be7 15.Re3 Nc6 16.Rae1 Qg4 17.Bxf6 gxf6 18.Rxe7 Qxf3 19.Re8+ Kg7 20.gxf3 Ne5 21.Rxh8 Kxh8  with defence ) 12..Nf6 13.Re1+ Kd8 ( there are no time to 13..Kf8 14.Bxf6! gxf6 15.Nxd6 Qxd6 16.Qh5 Bd7 17.Rad1 and Bc4 +- with winning attack ) 14.Bxf6+ gxf6 15.Qf3 Rf8 16.Bc4! ( Terenin's move again, see previous topic more above ) 16..dxc4 17.Nxd6 Qxd6 18.Rad1 +- with a technical winning game Melchor-Cañizares, cr e-mail, LADAC thema Final, 2010/11
« Last Edit: 02/07/11 at 14:08:51 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #118 - 02/04/11 at 23:41:12
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bc5 10.b4 Bd6 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Nb5 Qd7 and now:
13.Qh5+ should be looked at.

13.Qh5+ Kf8 14.Qf3+ Nf6 15.Bf4 Bxf4 16.Qxf4 Na6 17.Rfe1 Qd8 18.Re3 Bd7 19.Nd6 Rb8 20.Rae1 Nc7 21.c4! explodes the position for black.
17...Kg8!? may be an improvement, although I believe that 18.Nd6! is powerful and should lead to similar lines to the above.
  
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