Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C40: New move in the Latvian (Read 164593 times)
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Re: C40: 7th Latvian gambit World Tournament
Reply #147 - 01/08/12 at 17:49:56
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I know this is a forum for opening Theory, but let me know an announcement of the following next Tourney ( after all I've collaborated in the forum too ):

7th World Championship Latvian Gambit

2012/2017 cycle

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5

The tournament will be played in three stages: Preliminary, Semifinal and
Final.

The tournament will be played normally by e-mail and ICCF rules will
apply (60 days for 10 moves, the time may NOT be exceeded).

It is planned to start the preliminary stage on middle/end of January 2012.

The first two players of each Preliminary group will qualify for the Semifinal Round.

Each competitor will play 2 games with the same opponent (one with White and
one with Black), each section of the preliminary stage will involve 5/6 players.

Each entry (containing name, email,  country, elo rating), should be sent by email
to Alejandro Melchor ( amelchormunoz@gmail.com), not later than 25. 01. 2012.


    Horacio Fragola ( ARG, 1767 ICCF ); Juan H. Prado ( ARG, 2274 ICCF ); Lance Vicary ( CAN, 2027 ICCF ); David R. Lonsdale ( CAN, 1989 ICCF ); Kevint Plant ( ENG, 2137 ICCF ); Jaroslav Pech ( CZE, 1919 ICCF ); Fernando Ardila ( COL, 2278 ICCF ); Adam Christiansen ( USA - North Carolina ? - ); Duncan Foster ( USA - New York - ); Daniel Todd ( USA - Missouri - ); Jonathan King ( USA - Nevada - ); Lev Zilbermintz ( USA - New Jersey -, 2027 FIDE ); Steve Ferrero ( USA - New Jersey -, 2082 FIDE ); Stan W. Evans ( USA - Kentucky -, 1738 ICCF ); Khaleeg Kaashif ( USA - Maryland - ); Vladislav Sivak ( UKR ); Paiva Moreira ( POR, 2406 ICCF IM, 1923 FIDE ); Sergej Zielinski (GER, 2175 ICCF ); Fritz Borrmann ( GER, 1983 ICCF ); Itamar Oren ( ISR , 2181 ICCF IM ); Fredèric Fournier ( FRA, 2098 ICCF, 1875 FIDE ); Alexandre Bouget ( FRA, 2176 FIDE ); François Godart ( BEL, 2263 FIDE ); Gianfranco Pecis ( ITA, 2314 ICCF ); Alessandro Di Tora ( ITA ); Maurizio Mariscoli ( ITA ); Filiberto Pivirotto ( ITA, 1843 ICCF ); John Elburg ( NED, 2300 ICCF ); David Koetsier ( NED, 2409 ICCF ); Edward Wormar ( GER ); Hagen Tiemann ( GER, 2430 ICCF SIM ); Jordi Domingo ( ESP, 2221 FIDE ); Pedro  Cañizares ( ESP, 2160 ICCF, 1912 FIDE ) besides I myself, Alejandro Melchor ( ESP, 2050p ICCF, 2031 FIDE ).

Edited:
Moderator's Note: this has been approved for this site. ~SF January 9, 2012
« Last Edit: 01/10/12 at 08:42:58 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #146 - 07/15/11 at 11:19:34
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(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5) 3...Nf6 was played 216 times in the Melchor database, score 60% for White. The overwhelming majority of these games, I'd estimate 75% or more, were corr. games. 

Only in 49 games found White 4.Bc4 (57% score); 34 of those were corr. games (score 60%). Black replies 4...Qe7, the Melchor database contains 129 games, often in a different move-order (score 50%). The right response is 5.d4, in 118 games (53%). 

Black answers 5...Nc6. The database has 78 games (51%). The critical move 6.Nc3! appears in 20 games (score 58%). So the probability that these White opponents (mainly corr. players) reached this critical position was 5.3% - and much less if you include cases with other third moves.

Black can try 6...fxe4 (14 games; 77%), hoping that White doesn't find 7.Ng4! (in those 14 games, no one did). Or the untested 6...d6? 7.Nf7 d5; or the best 6...Nxe5! 7.dxe5 Qxe5 8.0-0 fxe4 (22 games, 62%). In the latter case, 10 White players found 9.Nd5. As we have seen, even this position isn't hopeless, as in +-, but I admit that it is +/- (one pawn behind without compensation). 

In today's corr. play, to end in this painful situation and have to defend it for months is no fun. So I'll avoid it in corr. chess. But a chance of 2% of pain vs maybe 30% of White failure [= slight plus or more for Black] and else "normal life", well, I have done stranger things with Black. 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #145 - 07/15/11 at 10:01:46
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Just like LDZ claims of the various Zilbermintz Gambits.
  

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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #144 - 07/15/11 at 07:10:13
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/14/11 at 21:51:22:
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5, the reason why I still believe that 3...Nf6 is more promising in OTB play: because the probability that White goes wrong seems high to me. Objectively 3...Nf6 may be +/-, while 3...Qf6 may be just +=. I don't see a big contradiction here. When the chance that your opponent finds the path to +/- is small, and the sidelines are harmless, why not take that risk? The evaluation of +/- means a position, say, where Black is a pawn behind. But opponents who are able to convert such an advantage are rare enough. 

What I don't like in 3...Qf6 is the greater number of serious options for White. I'd rather play with fire and risk 3...Nf6, hoping that White doesn't find the best moves 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.Nc3 ... +/-. 

MNb's argument that he wouldn't dare to play f5 in corr. chess is something I can agree with - I played the Balogh and the Vulture in Corr., but 2...f5 is stronger as a surprise in OTB chess. Just what AMM says... 

This Latvian gambit is just like Portuguese variation in Scandinavian. Very hard to play in corr. chess, but yet very pleasant OTB. White can walk straight into the trap with every dubious move.  Wink
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #143 - 07/14/11 at 21:51:22
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After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5, the reason why I still believe that 3...Nf6 is more promising in OTB play: because the probability that White goes wrong seems high to me. Objectively 3...Nf6 may be +/-, while 3...Qf6 may be just +=. I don't see a big contradiction here. When the chance that your opponent finds the path to +/- is small, and the sidelines are harmless, why not take that risk? The evaluation of +/- means a position, say, where Black is a pawn behind. But opponents who are able to convert such an advantage are rare enough. 

What I don't like in 3...Qf6 is the greater number of serious options for White. I'd rather play with fire and risk 3...Nf6, hoping that White doesn't find the best moves 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.Nc3 ... +/-. 

MNb's argument that he wouldn't dare to play f5 in corr. chess is something I can agree with - I played the Balogh and the Vulture in Corr., but 2...f5 is stronger as a surprise in OTB chess. Just what AMM says... 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #142 - 07/13/11 at 23:28:34
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MNb wrote on 07/13/11 at 23:15:28:
AMM wrote on 07/13/11 at 20:04:29:
Remember, the Latvian is extremely complicated and has lots of possible lines, many of these leading to promising situations for Black. Many players below master level and indeed some masters are not familiar with the maze of variations that arise from this gambit so it could be a useful weapon in your arsenal and you may be able to score some good victories with Black using it's variations.

This is the kind of argument LDZ uses to defend all the openings he attached his name to. On this site the question is: is the Latvian =, += or +-?
As far as I follow the debate Latvian prospects are quite gloomy. It's certainly not something I would dare to play in corr. chess.


The Latvian has a reputation as being both tactically and positionally suspect. That reputation is fairly well deserved, but only if White knows his stuff and plays accurately. When it is sprung on an unsuspecting opponent, its aggressiveness can occasion a surprisingly muted response. Weak players with little or no book knowledge are often reduced to 3 d3, which simply hands the initiative to Black. Players who know little about the Latvian shy away from the most critical lines because they don’t want to be the victim in a game

I personally think Latvian is only += ... if Blak know he is doing .. and specially if you have -2200 FIDE. Of course, is also dangerous in CC, even today WITHOUT machines !?  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #141 - 07/13/11 at 23:15:28
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AMM wrote on 07/13/11 at 20:04:29:
Remember, the Latvian is extremely complicated and has lots of possible lines, many of these leading to promising situations for Black. Many players below master level and indeed some masters are not familiar with the maze of variations that arise from this gambit so it could be a useful weapon in your arsenal and you may be able to score some good victories with Black using it's variations.

This is the kind of argument LDZ uses to defend all the openings he attached his name to. On this site the question is: is the Latvian =, += or +-?
As far as I follow the debate Latvian prospects are quite gloomy. It's certainly not something I would dare to play in corr. chess.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #140 - 07/13/11 at 20:04:29
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g2-g4 wrote on 07/13/11 at 18:03:14:

The key question is Black must force a trasposition with 11..Nc6 to the Main line; thus 8..Nf6 9.Bd3 Qg4 10.Qe3+ Be7 11.0-0 Nc6 ( Kosten, "The Latvian Gambit Lives !" p.27 ). However, Black can, with accurate play, a playable position, being perhaps White "best" reply positional 12.d5

After 12.d5 Nb4 13.Rf4 Qd7 14.Bf5 Qd8 15.Bxc8 Qxc8 T.Kosten gave 16.Nxd6 cxd6 17.Rxb4 0-0 18.Bd2 Bd8! =
But there are two improvements.
18.Rf4 Bd8 19.Qd3 Ng4 20.Rxf8+ Kxf8 21.Ne4 Bb6+ 22.Kh1 Ne5 23.Qe2 Qg4 24.Qxg4 Nxg4 25.Bf4 Re8 26.Nxd6 (26.Bxd6?= 1/2 Viola,M (2393)-Elburg,J (2350)/SEMI email 2002) Nf2+ 27.Kg1 Nh3+ 28.Kf1 Nxf4 29.Nxe8 Kxe8 30.c4 +=
16.Qe2 1-0 Vegjeleki,A-Voracek,M/cr ICCF WSTT/1/07/2 e-mail 2007 (41) and 1-0 Zielinski,S-Acedo,H/cr LADAC thema prel 2006 (32)
Or was 15...Rxc8 found to be better?



Ops !, g2-g4 you are a tough interlocutor, but this is fine !? and maybe we could to write a book on Latvian gambit !!.

This line started with 14.Bf5 was known on a remarkable game Rublevsky-Maljutin, Jurmala, 1991 ( as you must to know ), and published in the "Informator". In the aboved game Viola-Elburg perhaps 18.Rf4 Bd8 19.Qd3 Bb6+ 20.Be3 Qc7 is better - with some White advantage ( more space ). Tatlow and Ruggeri later on developed some analysis.

16.Qe2!? 0-0 17.Ne3 is certainly more promising and I don't see Black's game improvement.

15..Rxc8 is discredited as you can see in Kosten book.

Nimzowitch suggested 14.Nb6!? axb6 15.Rxb4 and Karl Bething in 1940 told after 15..0-0 (=) it's unclear that White's spacial advantage amounts to anything. I think personally after 16.Bd2 first player chances are a little bit favourable; and so Kosten give 15..Ng4!?

Thus I recommend 7..Nc6!? and 7..Be7!? for instance to avoid 16.Qe2! etc. and even variations with 10.Qxg4 or 10.Qf2!?
Both Diagram moves was developed after Kosten's book was published:

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Remember, the Latvian is extremely complicated and has lots of possible lines, many of these leading to promising situations for Black. Many players below master level and indeed some masters are not familiar with the maze of variations that arise from this gambit so it could be a useful weapon in your arsenal and you may be able to score some good victories with Black using it's variations.

« Last Edit: 07/13/11 at 23:00:12 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #139 - 07/13/11 at 18:03:14
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AMM wrote on 07/11/11 at 22:03:23:

The key question is Black must force a trasposition with 11..Nc6 to the Main line; thus 8..Nf6 9.Bd3 Qg4 10.Qe3+ Be7 11.0-0 Nc6 ( Kosten, "The Latvian Gambit Lives !" p.27 ). However, Black can, with accurate play, a playable position, being perhaps White "best" reply positional 12.d5

After 12.d5 Nb4 13.Rf4 Qd7 14.Bf5 Qd8 15.Bxc8 Qxc8 T.Kosten gave 16.Nxd6 cxd6 17.Rxb4 0-0 18.Bd2 Bd8! =
But there are two improvements.
18.Rf4 Bd8 19.Qd3 Ng4 20.Rxf8+ Kxf8 21.Ne4 Bb6+ 22.Kh1 Ne5 23.Qe2 Qg4 24.Qxg4 Nxg4 25.Bf4 Re8 26.Nxd6 (26.Bxd6?= 1/2 Viola,M (2393)-Elburg,J (2350)/SEMI email 2002) Nf2+ 27.Kg1 Nh3+ 28.Kf1 Nxf4 29.Nxe8 Kxe8 30.c4 +=
16.Qe2 0-0 (16...Na6 17.Ne3 0-0 18.Nf5 etc, see below) and now 17.Ne3 c5? 18.a3 Na6 19.Nf5 Bd8 20.Nxd6 Qd7 21.Nde4 +-1-0 Vegjeleki,A-Voracek,M/cr ICCF WSTT/1/07/2 e-mail 2007 (41), or 17...Na6 18.Nf5 Bd8 19.Be3+/-, or 17...a5 18.a3 Na6 19.Nf5 Bd8 20.Be3 Qd7 21.Raf1 +/-1-0 Zielinski,S-Acedo,H/cr LADAC thema prel 2006 (32)

Or has been 15...Rxc8 found to be better?
« Last Edit: 07/13/11 at 20:59:28 by g2-g4 »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #138 - 07/11/11 at 22:03:23
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g2-g4 wrote on 07/11/11 at 18:16:05:
AMM wrote on 07/11/11 at 00:46:02:
Paradoxically if you choose 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 6.d4 I could to try 6..d6 ( 6..Nf6?? 7.Ne5 Qf5 8.g4 was played at once or 6..Bb4 7.Ne5 Qf5 8.Bc4 is playable ) and we have trasposed to another old important Main Line 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 not considered so dangerous for Black. This variation is the usual in Latvian works.

OK. Let's make one step at a time. I will browse my notes for more. At the moment I come across a refutation of Stefan's recommendation (sorry) in the so called Main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9.Bd3 Qg4 10.Qe3+ Be7 11. 0-0 Qh5 (The Latvian Gambit Lives! p.14).

12.Nb5

Now 12...Kd8 is lost after 13.Nxc7! Ng4 14.Qg3 Kxc7 15.Bf4 (even queen sac 14.Qxe7!? Kxe7 15.Bf4 may be playable). Black can't defend d6. 15...Rd8 16.Rae1 Nc6 17.Rxe7 Nxe7 18.Bxd6 or 15...Qd5 16.Rae1 etc
So, 12...Na6 13.h3! and Black is out of good moves. Neither one, nor three Smiley
  • 13...0-0 14.Nxc7 Nxc7 15.Qxe7

  • 13...Nd5 Now 14.Ncxd6+ cxd6 15.Nxd6+ Kd7 16.Qg3 (16...Nab4 17.Bf5+ Kd8 18.Bg5!!) Bxd6! 17.Qxg7+ Kc6 18.Qxh8 Bxh3! 19.Qxa8 Bg4 20.Bf4 Nxf4 21.Be4+ Kd7! (21...Nd5 22.Bxd5+ Qxd5 23.Qe8+) 22.Qxb7+ Nc7 is just a mess, so White should probably play 15.Qe4 and only then 16.Nxd6 with edge.

  • 13...Bd7? 14.Rxf6 gxf6 15.Ncxd6+ cxd6 16.Nxd6+ Kd8 (16...Kf8? 17.Qh6+ with mate) 17.Nxb7+ Ne8 18.Bxa6 +-

  • 13...Kd8 14.a4! Nd5 (14...Re8 15.Bd2+-) 15.Qg3 Rg8 16.Ncxd6 cxd6 17.Nxd6 Nab4 18.Bg5 +-


So called "relatively" classical Main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 sets up probably one of the most encountered position in the Latvian, but now some new ideas has been found as Black. It's important to note second player must be prepared to answer White's considerable array of 7th. moves, but at the moment come on with your suggestion: 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9.Bd3 Qg4 10.Qe3+ Be7 11.0-0. Now 11..Qh5?! is very dubtious; I know Buecker put two exclamations marks once ( and Kosten in his own book an interesting one indeed, !? ), but both are wrong !!. Your analysis above are convincing and even it was played two times by the same Spanish player Jordi Domingo in 2007 and 2010 respectively ... losing both games ... ( f.i. 12.Nb5 Na6 13.h3! Kd8 14.a4! Re8 15.Bd2 etc. Mueller-Domingo, FICGS class M015, e-mail, 2007 1-0, 32 ).

The key question is Black must force a trasposition with 11..Nc6 to the Main line; thus 8..Nf6 9.Bd3 Qg4 10.Qe3+ Be7 11.0-0 Nc6 ( Kosten, "The Latvian Gambit Lives !" p.27 ). However, Black can, with accurate play, a playable position, being perhaps White "best" reply positional 12.d5

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The true problem with 8..Nf6 is 9.Ne3! ( followed by 10.Bd3 ). I can not write here vaste theory about, but to sum up, White have won 90% of the games ! ( I myself have lost four ).

Instead, if Black try on trasposing to "our" line with 8..Nc6 then he must to face well-known by Latvian players 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3! already pointed in Kosten's book.

In the year 2006 I myself started on analyzing deeply unexplored move 7..Be7!? ( played by Argentinian IM Perez Pietronave at the end of '90 decade ) and since then, most Latvians funs chose this move as Main Line against 4.d4; 6.Nc3 variation. Usually game continues 8.fxe4 and now 8..Nh6!? ( or 8..Nc6 and 9..Nh6!? ) in the spirit of the Kjell Krantz's idea 7..Nf6 8.fxe4 Be7 9.e5 Ng4; the point in "my" pawn sac line is similar: 10..0-0 combined with ..Bg5-Bh4+/Ng4. Many games has been played so far, but now I've seen a bit of inconvenience ( but's it's a secret ! ) and past year I started ( again ! ) my last improvement !,
7..Nc6!? ( only three games are known ). If 8.fxe4 Be7 often we trasposes to 7..Be7 lines, but in better conditions; against both 9.Be3 or 9.Nc3, always 9..Nh6!?. Finally if logical 8.d5 Ne5 9.Nxe5 dxe5 10.Nxe4 ( 10.fxe4 a6 ) 10..Bf5 11.Bb5+ ( 11.Qe2 0-0-0 ) 11..c6! etc. was a nice Black surprise in Van Willigen-Jove, corr. ICCF thema, TT/4/98/4, 1998-99 

I think we need the inspiration of great players as Buecker or our Director Tony Kosten on iluminiting us !!.

  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #137 - 07/11/11 at 18:16:05
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AMM wrote on 07/11/11 at 00:46:02:
Paradoxically if you choose 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 6.d4 I could to try 6..d6 ( 6..Nf6?? 7.Ne5 Qf5 8.g4 was played at once or 6..Bb4 7.Ne5 Qf5 8.Bc4 is playable ) and we have trasposed to another old important Main Line 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 not considered so dangerous for Black. This variation is the usual in Latvian works.

OK. Let's make one step at a time. I will browse my notes for more. At the moment I come across a refutation of Stefan's recommendation (sorry) in the so called Main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9.Bd3 Qg4 10.Qe3+ Be7 11. 0-0 Qh5 (The Latvian Gambit Lives! p.14).
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12.Nb5
Now 12...Kd8 is lost after 13.Nxc7! Ng4 14.Qg3 Kxc7 15.Bf4 (even queen sac 14.Qxe7!? Kxe7 15.Bf4 may be playable). Black can't defend d6. 15...Rd8 16.Rae1 Nc6 17.Rxe7 Nxe7 18.Bxd6 or 15...Qd5 16.Rae1 etc
So, 12...Na6 13.h3! and Black is out of good moves. Neither one, nor three Smiley
  • 13...0-0 14.Nxc7 Nxc7 15.Qxe7

  • 13...Nd5 Now 14.Ncxd6+ cxd6 15.Nxd6+ Kd7 16.Qg3 (16...Nab4 17.Bf5+ Kd8 18.Bg5!!) Bxd6! 17.Qxg7+ Kc6 18.Qxh8 Bxh3! 19.Qxa8 Bg4 20.Bf4 Nxf4 21.Be4+ Kd7! (21...Nd5 22.Bxd5+ Qxd5 23.Qe8+) 22.Qxb7+ Nc7 is just a mess, so White should probably play 15.Qe4 and only then 16.Nxd6 with edge.

  • 13...Bd7? 14.Rxf6 gxf6 15.Ncxd6+ cxd6 16.Nxd6+ Kd8 (16...Kf8? 17.Qh6+ with mate) 17.Nxb7+ Ne8 18.Bxa6 +-

  • 13...Kd8 14.a4! Nd5 (14...Re8 15.Bd2+-) 15.Qg3 Rg8 16.Ncxd6 cxd6 17.Nxd6 Nab4 18.Bg5 +-
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #136 - 07/11/11 at 01:33:16
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/10/11 at 19:13:18:
Markovich wrote on 07/10/11 at 17:06:12:
The only rule I can recall having promulgated is that the better player as White should not allow his opponent to embark upon the Mar del Plata Variation.  All the rest has been mere advice to lower-rated but improving players.

You are too modest, e. g. you proposed an improved set of evaluation symbols http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1266527927/0 . Excerpt: 

=b   Scant winning chances on either side, Black's play is easier
b    Some winning chances for Black, scant ones for White
B    Good winning chances for Black, scant ones for White

You seem perfectly qualified to refine Cordel's thumb rule. By the way, in our context another quote by Tartakower seems quite relevant: "If an opening is said to be incorrect, it is playable." 


Actually I still think that that, or some closely related idea, makes good sense. But it presupposes no chess expertise on my part, nor indeed do I have very much.

Regarding Tartakover's dictum, it might be worth observing that it was uttered in an altogether different epoch of the game.

  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #135 - 07/11/11 at 00:46:02
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g2-g4 wrote on 07/10/11 at 12:29:02:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/06/11 at 00:16:11:
Very impressive analysis, g2-g4! I am grateful to you that you shot down my little novelty in such an overwhelming way - there is little doubt left now that a possible rescue has to start very, very early...

As early as at the move number two? Wink
AMM wrote on 07/05/11 at 23:09:00:

I have told Key serie of moves is 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6

I have a bit rudimentary analysis of what can happen after 6.d4. If there's no known refutation of 6.d4 - I'll share it. Black (in my humble analysis) doesn't manage to equalize.


g2-g4 : Paradoxically if you choose 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 6.d4 I could to try 6..d6 ( 6..Nf6?? 7.Ne5 Qf5 8.g4 was played at once or 6..Bb4 7.Ne5 Qf5 8.Bc4 is playable ) and we have trasposed to another old important Main Line 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 not considered so dangerous for Black. This variation is the usual in Latvian works.
« Last Edit: 07/11/11 at 12:06:43 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #134 - 07/10/11 at 19:13:18
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Markovich wrote on 07/10/11 at 17:06:12:
The only rule I can recall having promulgated is that the better player as White should not allow his opponent to embark upon the Mar del Plata Variation.  All the rest has been mere advice to lower-rated but improving players.

You are too modest, e. g. you proposed an improved set of evaluation symbols http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1266527927/0 . Excerpt: 

=b   Scant winning chances on either side, Black's play is easier
b    Some winning chances for Black, scant ones for White
B    Good winning chances for Black, scant ones for White

You seem perfectly qualified to refine Cordel's thumb rule. By the way, in our context another quote by Tartakower seems quite relevant: "If an opening is said to be incorrect, it is playable." 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #133 - 07/10/11 at 17:06:12
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/10/11 at 13:52:31:
g2-g4 wrote on 07/10/11 at 13:14:02:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/10/11 at 12:49:11:
But there is also Cordel's rule: in a given position, there is usually either one single best move, or three good moves. So in a position with two good moves, the analysis has to go on (but not necessarily today). 
Cheesy

So, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 we have "one single best" 2...Nf6, haven't we? Thus, there's no need to seek for the 3-rd "good move". Smiley

Once I asked Bent Larsen whether computers are reducing the number of playable lines or increase them, and he replied that the latter was the case. So maybe Cordel's rule is a bit dated. Unfortunately, modern opening book writers are no big help in this respect. Someone should develop new helpful rules like Tartakower's or Cordel's. OK, there's Markovich...


The only rule I can recall having promulgated is that the better player as White should not allow his opponent to embark upon the Mar del Plata Variation.  All the rest has been mere advice to lower-rated but improving players.
  

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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #132 - 07/10/11 at 13:52:31
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g2-g4 wrote on 07/10/11 at 13:14:02:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/10/11 at 12:49:11:
But there is also Cordel's rule: in a given position, there is usually either one single best move, or three good moves. So in a position with two good moves, the analysis has to go on (but not necessarily today). 
Cheesy

So, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 we have "one single best" 2...Nf6, haven't we? Thus, there's no need to seek for the 3-rd "good move". Smiley

Once I asked Bent Larsen whether computers are reducing the number of playable lines or increase them, and he replied that the latter was the case. So maybe Cordel's rule is a bit dated. Unfortunately, modern opening book writers are no big help in this respect. Someone should develop new helpful rules like Tartakower's or Cordel's. OK, there's Markovich...
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #131 - 07/10/11 at 13:14:02
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/10/11 at 12:49:11:
But there is also Cordel's rule: in a given position, there is usually either one single best move, or three good moves. So in a position with two good moves, the analysis has to go on (but not necessarily today). 
Cheesy

So, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 we have "one single best" 2...Nc6, haven't we? Thus, there's no need to seek for the 3-rd "good move". Smiley
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #130 - 07/10/11 at 12:49:11
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g2-g4 wrote on 07/10/11 at 12:29:02:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/06/11 at 00:16:11:
Very impressive analysis, g2-g4! I am grateful to you that you shot down my little novelty in such an overwhelming way - there is little doubt left now that a possible rescue has to start very, very early...

As early as at the move number two? Wink

No, according to Tartakower in the first three moves you can play everything, and he wasn't talking "half-moves". Thus 3...Qf6 and 3...Nf6 might well both be sound. (I don't take T.'s "insights" as dogma, of course. Many moves ruin Black in move 3, or even earlier. Still...)

So I could friendly co-exist with AMM. But there is also Cordel's rule: in a given position, there is usually either one single best move, or three good moves. So in a position with two good moves, the analysis has to go on (but not necessarily today). 
Cheesy
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #129 - 07/10/11 at 12:29:02
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/06/11 at 00:16:11:
Very impressive analysis, g2-g4! I am grateful to you that you shot down my little novelty in such an overwhelming way - there is little doubt left now that a possible rescue has to start very, very early...

As early as at the move number two? Wink
AMM wrote on 07/05/11 at 23:09:00:

I have told Key serie of moves is 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6

I have a bit rudimentary analysis of what can happen after 6.d4. If there's no known refutation of 6.d4 - I'll share it. Black (in my humble analysis) doesn't manage to equalize.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #128 - 07/08/11 at 01:30:41
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It is still true that 4.Ng1 should give White some advantage, though not as much as 3.Nxe5. - The variation 4...Qg5 given in my old booklet is worse than 4...Nf6. Still, it remains interesting that Philidor CG and Latvian Gambit can lead to the same position.  


  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #127 - 07/06/11 at 20:05:52
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From what I remember after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.exf5 e4 4.Ng1 the main line given by Stefan Bücker was 4... Qg5 5.d3 Qxf5 6.dxe4 Qxe4+ 7.Be2 hoping to gain time by attacking the Black Queen in the center. After 4... Nf6 5.g4 Bc5 6.Bg2 should be considered instead of 6.g5.

I find the line interesting since the position after 4.Ng1 is a reversed KG with a tempo up (the move ... e5-e4). White hopes to prove that the Black pawn on e4 is actually worse than on e5.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #126 - 07/06/11 at 19:39:05
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Fllg wrote on 07/06/11 at 07:32:50:
Stefan, what is the current status of your old recommendation (in "Gambit 59") 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.exf5 e4 3.Ng1 ?

I admit I never had to face the Latvian so far but intended to play this line. Have you found a satisfactory reply for Black?


NOT Stefan Buecker (!?), but I think his old reccomendation would be already possible. A relatively "good" defence is 4..Nf6 5.g4 Bc5 6.g5 0-0!? ( "Inversed Muzio gambit"; see King's gambit ) 7.d4!? - better than 7.gxf6 directly - 7..exd3 8.gxf6 Qxf6 etc. with game for both sides. There are some games with this moves. The other ones 6..d5?! "inversed Ghulam-Khassim gambit" and 6..Nc6?! "inversed McDonell gambit" are more dubtious, but of course they are curious too.

Personally I think best is trasposing to Philidor Countergambit of Philidor Defence with 3..d6; thus, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 so in Latvian gambit 3..e4 4.Ne5 Nf6 5.Be2 Classical Line is favourable as White.

Real debate is 3.Nxe5 Qf6; positional play with 6..d5!? has been analyzed deeply in many posts: last corresp. games turn back on old 5..Qg6

  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #125 - 07/06/11 at 07:32:50
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Stefan, what is the current status of your old recommendation (in "Gambit 59") 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.exf5 e4 3.Ng1 ?

I admit I never had to face the Latvian so far but intended to play this line. Have you found a satisfactory reply for Black?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #124 - 07/06/11 at 00:16:11
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Very impressive analysis, g2-g4! I am grateful to you that you shot down my little novelty in such an overwhelming way - there is little doubt left now that a possible rescue has to start very, very early... 

AMM wrote on 07/05/11 at 23:09:00:
All very pretty "g2-g4" but perhaps 13..Bc5!? 14.Bxh7+ Kh8 is a best defence, f.i. : 15.Bf4 Qxb2 16.Qg6 d6 17.Rab1 Qf6 18.Qh5 Bg4 19.Qxg4 Kxh7 20.Rxb7 Rae8 with counterplay for the pawn

There is also 15.Be3, no compensation visible here. 

AMM, I am not 100% convinced yet that 3...Nf6 is wrong. The move has some charm for me as an otb-player, since a clear majority of my opponents would probably play 4.exf5. But I admit that for finding good ideas after 3...Nf6 we probably have to wait for an advanced kind of chess software which understands "Latvian pawn structures", viz:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 d6 6.Bf7+ Kd8 7.Bb3 dxe5 8.dxe5+ Nbd7 9.exf6 Qxe4+ 10.Kf1 gxf6 11.Nc3 Qc6 12.Qd3 Qa6 13.Qxa6 bxa6

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On a more serious note, lines like the following might well be playable in OTB chess against an unprepared opponent. But in correspondence chess it would be suicide: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.Nc3 Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 8.0-0 Bd6!? 9.g3 Kd8 10.Re1 Bb4 11.Bf4 Qc5 12.Nd5! Qxc4 13.Bxc7+ Qxc7 14.Nxc7 Kxc7 

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15.c3 Bf8 16.e5 Ne4 17.Qd5 Ng5 18.e6 dxe6 19.Qc4+ Kd8 20.Red1+ Ke8 21.Qa4+ Ke7 22.Qh4 and wins, +-. It could be interesting to identify variations with trap potential (Calthrop Coefficient), for OTB use only. 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #123 - 07/05/11 at 23:09:00
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All very pretty "g2-g4" but perhaps 13..Bc5!? 14.Bxh7+ Kh8 is a best defence, f.i. : 15.Bf4 Qxb2 16.Qg6 d6 17.Rab1 Qf6 18.Qh5 Bg4 19.Qxg4 Kxh7 20.Rxb7 Rae8 with counterplay for the pawn

I have told Key serie of moves is 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 or 5..Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? ; all rest of variations seems very dubtious nowadays even 6..c6?! last attempt until few time ago ( see previous posts ).

Maybe 3.Nxe5 Nf6 is playable with the defence of my first words in this thread, but personally I would prefer to analyze in depth known lines with 3..Qf6
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #122 - 07/04/11 at 22:25:53
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After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 (or 6.Nc3 Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 8.0-0 fxe4) Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 8.Nc3 fxe4 9.Nd5 Nxd5 10.Bxd5 Bd6 11.g3 c6 12.Bxe4 0-0 13.Qd3 h6 instead of 14.c3 b6 etc White has more direct assault 14.Bd2!?
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14...Bc5 15.Bc3 Qd6 (15...Qg5 16.b4 Bb6 17.Qd6 or even 17.Bh7+!? Kh8 18.Qd6) 16.Qc4+ Qe6 17.Qxc5 Qxe4 18.Rae1 with a clear edge.
14...Qf6 15.Rae1 (now 16.Bc3 is a threat again, and immediate 15.Bc3 would be premature due to 15...Be5) Bd5 with a pretty much forced variant 16.Bh7+ Kh8 17.Rxe5 Qxe5 18.Bc3 Qe6 (18...Qg5? 19.Re1 and 20.Re5, and 18...Qe7 transposes after 19.Re1 Qf7) 19.Re1 Qf7 20.Bg6 Qxf2+ 21.Kh1 Kg8 (21...d5? 22.Re7 or 21...Qc5? 22.Re5 +-) 22.Re7 Qf3+ (22...Qf1+ is essentially the same) 23.Qxf3 Rxf3 24.Kg2 Rf6 25.Bxf6 gxf6 26.Kf3 or 26.Kh3
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Black is paralyzed. White King seems to easily capture kingside pawns.
But probably I have missed something.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #121 - 07/04/11 at 13:18:32
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My third article on the Latvian Gambit http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss46.pdf , written for Chesscafe, had the following main line: 

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Nf6 4. Bc4 Qe7 5. d4 Nc6 6. 0-0 Nxe5 7. dxe5 Qxe5 8. exf5 Qxf5 9. Nc3 Kd8 10. Bd3 Qh5 11. Qxh5 Nxh5 12. Bg5+ Be7 13. Bxe7+ Kxe7 14. Rfe1+ Kd8 15. Nd5 g6 16.g4! and so on, with serious problems for Black (+/-). Apparently the 15th move is a mistake. The development 15...d6! is more plausible:

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16. Be2 g6 (16...Nf6?! seems weaker) 17. Bxh5 gxh5 18. Rad1 Bf5 White is only slightly better. White can play differently, e.g. 16.Re3 g6 17.Be2 Rf8, but again this looks like +=, better than my former main line.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #120 - 02/07/11 at 01:05:20
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Conquistador wrote on 02/04/11 at 23:41:12:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bc5 10.b4 Bd6 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Nb5 Qd7 and now:
13.Qh5+ should be looked at.

13.Qh5+ Kf8 14.Qf3+ Nf6 15.Bf4 Bxf4 16.Qxf4 Na6 17.Rfe1 Qd8 18.Re3 Bd7 19.Nd6 Rb8 20.Rae1 Nc7 21.c4! explodes the position for black.
17...Kg8!? may be an improvement, although I believe that 18.Nd6! is powerful and should lead to similar lines to the above.


This topic has been refuted previously as White colour with the game Melchor-Paiva Moreira, cr e-mail, LADAC thema Final, 2010/11, 1-0, 39 but in different way: 9..Bc5 10.b4! ( Stuart James ) 10..Bd6 11.Re1 Ne7 12.Nexd5! cxd5 13.Nb5 Bxb4 ( 13..0-0 14.Nxd6 Qxf2+ 15.Kh1 Bg4 16.Qd2 Qf6 -16..Qxd2 17.Bxd2; 16..Qh4 17.Bb2 - 17.Qg5! ) 14.Rb1! ( Terenin's new move ) 14..0-0 15.Rxb4 Qxf2+ 16.Kh1 Nbc6 17.Be3 Qf6 18.Rf4 +- Qxf4 ( 18..Bf5 19.Bxf5 Nxf5 20.Bc5 ) 19.Bxf4 Rxf4 20.Nc7 Bg4 21.Bxh7+! etc., but of course yor new analysis 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Nb5 Qd7 ( is known from long time ago 12..Bc7 or 12..Bxb4 are not sufficient either ) 13.Qh5+! N etc. is absolutely valid ( instead of my previous 13.Bg5? Nf6 14.Re1+ Kf8! etc. ). Anyway, your idea 17..Kg8 is also loser, for instance: 18.Nd6 Nc7 19.Bf5 Qd8 20.Bxc8 Rxc8 21.c4! with idea Nf5 or simplest 21.Nxc8 Qxc8 22.Re7 Nce8 23.Qe3

Ja, ja, ja !; Conquistador, you were the initiator of this debate and finally has found former and known Diemer's idea 6..c6?! published in all books as Main Line seems to be refuted and we must return to the first of your messages: Unique Black move is 6..d5!? already analyzed by Kretainis, you and myself and over I will write soon something more. ( Remember idea of Stefan Bucker 3.Nxe5 Nf6 to try to save the gambit, extensively analyzed in the Horizons has also been rejected )

Thanks for your analysia !, I see you want destroy Carthage !

Alejandro Melchor ( Barcelona, Spain )
amelchormunoz@gmail.com   
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #119 - 02/07/11 at 00:04:25
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Conquistador wrote on 02/04/11 at 22:59:56:
In the line you gave AMM, I propose an improvement.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bd6 10.Nexd5 cxd5 11.Nb5 Bc7 12.Re1+ Kd8 13.Bg5+ Nf6 14.Be4 Re8 15.Bxd5 Rxe1+ 16.Qxe1 Bxh2+ 17.Kf1 Qe8 18.Qa5+ to keep queens on the board.

An example line

18...b6 19.Qb4 a5 20.Qc4 Qxb5 21.Qxb5 Ba6 22.Bxf6+ gxf6 23.Qxa6 Rxa6 24.g3 Ra7 25.Kg2 Bxg3 26.fxg3 when black's position is full of weaknesses.  Can black hold this position?



Perhaps you are right, but the resulting ending after 26th White's move of Rook and Bishop vs. Rook and Knight with four pawns both players offers more technical difficulty that the line of I. Terenin ( with Novelty 14.Be4! ) of my game against Borrmann, which is simpler and easy to play with an ending where the White initiative is more clear. In any case, also 9..Bd6 is in the tightrope.

Another recent game in this line, analyzed above, where Black tested ..Qd7 ( instead 11..Bc7 ) has continued 10.Nexd5 cxd5 11.Nb5 Qd7? 12.Bg5! ( I. Terenin, better than known 12.Re1+ Kf8! - but not 12..Kd8? 13.Bg5+ trasposing to the game - 13.Qf3+ Nf6 14.Bg5 Be7 15.Re3 Nc6 16.Rae1 Qg4 17.Bxf6 gxf6 18.Rxe7 Qxf3 19.Re8+ Kg7 20.gxf3 Ne5 21.Rxh8 Kxh8  with defence ) 12..Nf6 13.Re1+ Kd8 ( there are no time to 13..Kf8 14.Bxf6! gxf6 15.Nxd6 Qxd6 16.Qh5 Bd7 17.Rad1 and Bc4 +- with winning attack ) 14.Bxf6+ gxf6 15.Qf3 Rf8 16.Bc4! ( Terenin's move again, see previous topic more above ) 16..dxc4 17.Nxd6 Qxd6 18.Rad1 +- with a technical winning game Melchor-Cañizares, cr e-mail, LADAC thema Final, 2010/11
« Last Edit: 02/07/11 at 14:08:51 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #118 - 02/04/11 at 23:41:12
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bc5 10.b4 Bd6 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Nb5 Qd7 and now:
13.Qh5+ should be looked at.

13.Qh5+ Kf8 14.Qf3+ Nf6 15.Bf4 Bxf4 16.Qxf4 Na6 17.Rfe1 Qd8 18.Re3 Bd7 19.Nd6 Rb8 20.Rae1 Nc7 21.c4! explodes the position for black.
17...Kg8!? may be an improvement, although I believe that 18.Nd6! is powerful and should lead to similar lines to the above.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #117 - 02/04/11 at 22:59:56
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In the line you gave AMM, I propose an improvement.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bd6 10.Nexd5 cxd5 11.Nb5 Bc7 12.Re1+ Kd8 13.Bg5+ Nf6 14.Be4 Re8 15.Bxd5 Rxe1+ 16.Qxe1 Bxh2+ 17.Kf1 Qe8 18.Qa5+ to keep queens on the board.

An example line

18...b6 19.Qb4 a5 20.Qc4 Qxb5 21.Qxb5 Ba6 22.Bxf6+ gxf6 23.Qxa6 Rxa6 24.g3 Ra7 25.Kg2 Bxg3 26.fxg3 when black's position is full of weaknesses.  Can black hold this position?

  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #116 - 01/29/11 at 19:33:21
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Quote:
MAYBE LATVIAN IS STILL ALIVE !? ...


If the Latvian is a forced draw, then maybe the King's Gambit is a forced win for White. Grin
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #115 - 01/29/11 at 17:42:33
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g2-g4 wrote on 09/16/10 at 18:54:21:
AMM wrote on 09/12/10 at 11:43:58:
Only 11..Bc7 is the correct one.

Is it?
12.Re1+ Kd8 - forced
    12...Be6?? or 12...Ne7?? is met with 13.Nxc7+
    12....Ne7 13.b3 Nf6 14.Ba3+ Kg8 15.Re7 Bxh2+ (but what else?) 16.Kh1 Qf8 17.Rxb7 +-
13.Bg5+ Nf6 - forced
    13...Kd7? 14.Qg4+ with soon mate
14.Be4 (14.Bc4 also looks promising, but it disables c2-c4 option) Re8 again looks forced
    14...Be6 15.c4 crushes Black's center
15.Bxd5 Rxe1+ forced 16.Qxe1 Bxh2+ - probably forced
    16...Qd7? 17.Rd1 +-
    16...Qxd5!? 17.Rd1 Qxd1 18.Qxd1+ Bd7 19.Qd5 Kc8 20.Bxf6 gf 21.Qg8+ Bd8 22.Nd6+ Kc7 23.Nxb7 Nc6 24.Nxd8 Rxd8 25.Qxh7 may be a better choice, but doubtfully Black can survive in this endgame.
17.Kf1 Qe8
    17...Qxd5 is worse than a move ago 18.Rd1
    17...Qe7 18.Qa5+ Bc7 19.Qd2 Nbd7 20.Nxc7 Kxc7 21.Qa5+ Nb6 22.Rd1 with very strong attack
18.Qxe8+ Kxe8 29.Bxf6 gf 20.g3 As you can see, Black can't deviate and after 11...Bc7 he is forced to reach this position:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Can he hold this position? Obviously, further analysis is needed, but first impression is that he can't due to much less active pieces and weakness of his kingside pawns.


Summarizing the debate, the sources of classical Main line in the Latvian is 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 ( by far, this variation is the most played at present at least in CC, ... but as we will see, perhaps we should back to the more classic 5..Qg6 ) 6.Ne3 c6 ( 6..d5!? has been discussed extensively at the beggining of this debate too ) 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 reaching to the critical position. Black has proved most of the legal movements - up to 9 ! - but finally only 9..Bc5?! and 9..Bd6 was considered:

1) 9..Bc5?! has always been the first line that was tested, but from five years ago is known 10.b4! ( Stuart James ) refutes whole System ( see http://www.jeremysilman.com//chess_opng_anlys/040223_more_splat_the_lat.html and http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1194567910/30 in this last one, note of Russian I.Terenin, "g2-g4", with 14.Rb1! ). A recent game with Terenin's reccomendation was: 10..Bd6 ( 10..Bxb4 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Nb5 etc. of Rosenstielke-Melchor, cr e-mail, V LG World Ch., Final, 2005/06, 1-0, 25, see Jeremy Silman's link ) 11.Re1 Ne7 12.Nexd5! cxd5 13.Nb5 Bxb4 ( 13..0-0 14.Nxd6 Qxf2+ 15.Kh1 Bg4 16.Qd2 Qf6 -16..Qxd2 17.Bxd2; 16..Qh4 17.Bb2 - 17.Qg5! and paradoxically we have trasposed to a known line with 9..Bd6 favourable as White ) 14.Rb1! 0-0 15.Rxb4 Qxf2+ 16.Kh1 Nbc6 17.Be3 Qf6 18.Rf4 +- Qxf4 ( 18..Bf5 19.Bxf5 Nxf5 20.Bc5 ) 19.Bxf4 Rxf4 20.Nc7 Bg4 21.Bxh7+! Kh8 ( 21..Kxh7 22.Qd3+ Bf5 23.Qg3 ) 22.Qc1 Raf8 23.Bd3 R4f6 24.Kg1 Bf5 25.Bxf5 Rxf5 26.Qa3 Ng6 27.Nxd5 ( Melchor-Paiva Moreira, cr e-mail, LADAC thema Final, 2010/11, 1-0, 39 )

2) 9..Bd6 Black has achieved some strategic advantages in long-term. So soon, has strengthened a central extra pawn and the position of his Queen will be quite useful when castling since it will pressure along ‘f’ column. Moreover, quickly will show he did achieve a showy game if complete the development of his pieces ..Ne7 and ..0-0, the King will be safe while the White knights are poorly placed. The central Black pawns prevent the Knights moving forward and e3 one also blocks the Bishop of ‘c1’. The only problem for the Black is in most of the lines must be careful to the sacrifices Nexd5 ( again ... ) for the purpose of which is not another that obstruct the castling.

Now "Main" line 10. Re1 Ne7 11.Nexd5!? cxd5 12.Nb5 etc. has been analyzed deeply at http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1262014233/90 ( including the relative best 15..Qf6! where another Russian player got an easy draw against me ! ), and thus I. Terenin ( again ! ) have suggested the other known dangerous move-manoeuvre 10.Nexd5! cxd5 11.Nb5 directly where 11..Bc7 is the unique move. According diagram - and analysis - above, after 12.Re1+ Kd8 ( I add 12..Kf8?! 13.b3 with attack ) 13. Bg5+ Nf6 14.Be4! ( 14.Bc4 looks promising, but after 14..Be6 15.Bxd5 Bxd5 16.c4 Kc8 - or 16..Nbd7!? - 17.Bxf6 Bf3! etc. Melchor-Sakai, cr e-mail, V LG Wotld Ch., sf. A, 2004/05, 1/2-1/2, 36 or 15.Rxe6!? Qxe6 16.Bxd5 Qe5 17.Bxb7+ Nbd7 etc. with a very complicated game for both players - you can continue analyzing this great line ! - ) 14..Re8 ( 14..Be6 15.c4 ) 15.Bxd5 Rxe1+ 16.Qxe1 Bxh2+ 17.Kf1 Qe8 18.Qxe8+ Kxe8 19.Bxf6 gxf6 20.g3 Terenin ask if Black can hold this position.

Well, according my own experience it is not easy to increase the adventage and even if second player plays accurately, he has get a reasonable draw possibilities: So, 20..Bxg3 21.fxg3 Kd8 22.Rd1 Nd7 23.Kf2 ( 23.Kg2 ) 23..a5 24.c4 h6 25.Rd4 f5 26.Nd6 Kc7 27.Be6 Nb6 28.Bxc8 Nxc8 29.Nxf5 Ra6 30.Kf3 Rf6 31.Kf4 and now instead of 31..Ne7?! 32.g4 Ng6+ 33.Kg3 Ne5 34.Re4 etc. with a difficult ending in Melchor-Borrmann, cr e-mail, LADAC thema Final, 2010/11 better looks 31..a4 32.g4 Ne7 33.Re4 Ng6+ 34.Kg3 Nf8 35.b4 axb3 36.axb3 Rb6 37.Re3 Nd7 or 30..a4 31.b4 azb3 32.axb3 Rb6 33.Rd3 Rf6 34.Kg4 Rg6+ 35.Kf4 h5 36.Rd1 Rg4+ 37.Kf3 Rg5 38.Nd4 Kd6 39.Nb5+ Ke7 40.Rd3 Rf5+

MAYBE LATVIAN IS STILL ALIVE !? ...
   
« Last Edit: 01/30/11 at 14:43:59 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #114 - 11/16/10 at 14:53:46
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belgian wrote on 11/15/10 at 21:34:14:
sloughter wrote on 11/15/10 at 02:06:32:

I think the simplest refutation is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Bc4 +/-


3.Bc4 certainly looks good, but the traditional recipe is 3.Nxe5. I am curious why you are recommending 3.Bc4 over 3.Nxe5 ?

What do you call traditional? Mieses/Dufresne in the early 30th of the last century did recommend 3. Bc4 as at least equal to 3. Nxe5 Qe7! 

Iirc they gave some 3.Nxe5 lines for teaching purposes about tactical motivs in the opening. If you got strong enough to recognize that 3.Bc4 is at least as strong as 3.Nex5 you will see the general problems of the Latvian Gambit too, including the need for white to attack accordingly to the positional demands.
  

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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #113 - 11/15/10 at 21:34:14
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sloughter wrote on 11/15/10 at 02:06:32:

I think the simplest refutation is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Bc4 +/-


3.Bc4 certainly looks good, but the traditional recipe is 3.Nxe5. I am curious why you are recommending 3.Bc4 over 3.Nxe5 ?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #112 - 11/15/10 at 02:06:32
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AMM wrote on 09/14/10 at 00:25:48:
Only as  a curiosity. 109 replies and more than 8.000 views !; one of the most visited threads here .. but still few people comment last developements ...

It's not easy "to refute"an Opening ( LG, Traxler, or any ), perhaps only Damiano's 2..f6 or 2..Nc6 3. Bc4 Nd4 ..


I got an excellent game against GM Arthur Bisguier when he was the fifth highest GM in the country in a simul using the Damiano Gambit. I was up a Knight in a Rook, Knight and pawn ending against Rook and pawns; all he had were doubled, isolated pawns that were not far advanced. It is customary for GM's, though, to win inferior endgames against weak opponents. 

I think the simplest refutation is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 3.Bc4 +/-
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #111 - 11/13/10 at 23:03:29
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g2-g4 Quote:

Personally, I never liked this queen retreat.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0–0 Bd6 10.Nexd5!? cxd5 11.Nb5 Qd7? 12.Bg5

A)      12...Be7 13.Re1 Kd8 Other moves are worse:
                13...Nf6 14.Bxf6 gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kd8 (15...Kf8 16.Nd4!) 16.Rad1 a6 17.Nc3 Bb4 18.Bf5 Qxf5 19.Rxd5+ Qd7 20.Rxd7+ Nxd7 21.Re3 Bxc3 22.Rxc3+- or
                13...a6 14.Qh5+ Kd8 15.Be3! Qc6 16.Nd4+-
14.Qd2 Black is totally undeveloped and it is not clear, how he can survive.
                14.Qh5 is also good, e.g. 14...Nc6 15.Qf7 Nf6 16.Qxg7 Rg8 17.Qxf6! Bxf6 18.Bxf6+ Ne7 19.Bxe7+ Qxe7 20.Rxe7 Kxe7 21.Nc7 Rb8 22.Nxd5+ Kf7 23.Bxh7+-
14...Nc6 let AMM to win nicely: (14...Nf6 was stronger, but nevertheless after 15.Rad1 White should win) 15.Qf4 Nh6 16.Rxe7 Nxe7 17.Re1 Re8 18.Nd6 Qc7 19.Rxe7 Qxe7 20.Nxe8 1–0 Melchor Munoz,A-De Jong,S/corr 1998

B)      12...Ne7 13.Qh5+ Kf8 or 13...g6 14.Bxg6+ Nxg6 15.Rfe1+ Kf7 16.Qf3+ Kg8 17.Qxd5+ Qf7 18.Qxd6+- 14.Rfe1 Nbc6 15.Re3+-

C)      12...Nf6 13.Re1+ Kf8
               a) 13...Kf7? 14.Bxf6 gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kg7 16.Nxd6 Qxd6 17.Re3+-;
               b) 13...Kd8? 14.Bxf6+ gxf6 15.Qf3 Rf8 16.Bc4!+- (Weaker is 16.Rad1? 1/2 Gaard,K (2287)-Downey,M (2372)/SEMI email 2002 (31) );
               c) 13...Be7? 14.Bxf6 gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kd8 (15...Kf8 16.Qh6+ Kf7 17.Re3+-) 16.Rad1;
14.Qf3 (14.Bxf6!?) Qd8 15.Bxf6 gxf6 was played in Borrmann,F-Gamant,G/Brazil CXEB 2000 and here again White could win after 16.Bc4! +-.

D)      Also, there’s no time to drive annoying knight away. If 12...a6, then 13.Re1+


My reply

Ok, all its right in your lines above, but what's with the intersection of White pawn 'b4' ?.
Thus: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0–0 Bc5 10.b4! Bd6 11.Nexd5!? cxd5 12.Nb5 Qd7. The same position of a previous Diagram, only pawn is in 'b4'.

Now 13.Bg5+ Nf6 14.Re1+ Kf8! ( 14..Kd8? is weaker, but 14..Be7!? confuse, is possible ) 15.Qf3 Be7 so if 16.Qf4 Nc6! 17.Bxf6 gxf6 18.Nc7 Kg7! 19.Qg3+ Kf7 20.Nxa8 Bxb4 solving all problems.

Also 12.Re1+ Kd8! 13.Bc4 Nf6 14.Bxd5 Qh5 15.Bf4 Qxd1 16.Raxd1 Bxb4! ( Melchor-Paiva Moreira, cr email LADAC thema, 2008/09 ) with very unclear game very difficult on evaluating by engines 

Maybe 11.Re1 Ne7 12.Nexd5 cxd5 13.Nb5 0-0 etc. trasposing to a known LG position ?

LG continues surviving ...
« Last Edit: 11/14/10 at 12:00:31 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #110 - 09/16/10 at 18:54:21
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AMM wrote on 09/12/10 at 11:43:58:
Only 11..Bc7 is the correct one.

Is it?
12.Re1+ Kd8 - forced
    12...Be6?? or 12...Ne7?? is met with 13.Nxc7+
    12....Ne7 13.b3 Nf6 14.Ba3+ Kg8 15.Re7 Bxh2+ (but what else?) 16.Kh1 Qf8 17.Rxb7 +-
13.Bg5+ Nf6 - forced
    13...Kd7? 14.Qg4+ with soon mate
14.Be4 (14.Bc4 also looks promising, but it disables c2-c4 option) Re8 again looks forced
    14...Be6 15.c4 crushes Black's center
15.Bxd5 Rxe1+ forced 16.Qxe1 Bxh2+ - probably forced
    16...Qd7? 17.Rd1 +-
    16...Qxd5!? 17.Rd1 Qxd1 18.Qxd1+ Bd7 19.Qd5 Kc8 20.Bxf6 gf 21.Qg8+ Bd8 22.Nd6+ Kc7 23.Nxb7 Nc6 24.Nxd8 Rxd8 25.Qxh7 may be a better choice, but doubtfully Black can survive in this endgame.
17.Kf1 Qe8
    17...Qxd5 is worse than a move ago 18.Rd1
    17...Qe7 18.Qa5+ Bc7 19.Qd2 Nbd7 20.Nxc7 Kxc7 21.Qa5+ Nb6 22.Rd1 with very strong attack
18.Qxe8+ Kxe8 29.Bxf6 gf 20.g3 As you can see, Black can't deviate and after 11...Bc7 he is forced to reach this position:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Can he hold this position? Obviously, further analysis is needed, but first impression is that he can't due to much less active pieces and weakness of his kingside pawns.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #109 - 09/14/10 at 00:25:48
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Only as  a curiosity. 109 replies and more than 8.000 views !; one of the most visited threads here .. but still few people comment last developements ...

It's not easy "to refute"an Opening ( LG, Traxler, or any ), perhaps only Damiano's 2..f6 or 2..Nc6 3. Bc4 Nd4 ..
« Last Edit: 09/14/10 at 13:20:59 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #108 - 09/12/10 at 16:16:29
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AMM wrote on 09/12/10 at 11:43:58:
Master Om wrote on 09/12/10 at 04:54:42:
AMM wrote on 05/08/10 at 21:30:27:
I was writting a long article which demostrates that 5..Qg6! is totally playable too, but suddenly my PC crashed ! and I lost all the material.!!

So if some players suggest 5..Qf7 is relatively unplayable ( I'm not allright ) I think 5..Qg6 Main line is reasonable as alternative after 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nf6!

Latvian is not dead yet ...

Will you please post these lines in pgn. It will be good to analyse.


Enclosed a PGN file with the Line 5..Qg6.

Indeed "g2-g4" yes, 11..Qd7?! is a dubious move. Only 11..Bc7 is the correct one.

Time to Analyse this After Traxler. Thanks.
  

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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #107 - 09/12/10 at 11:43:58
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Master Om wrote on 09/12/10 at 04:54:42:
AMM wrote on 05/08/10 at 21:30:27:
I was writting a long article which demostrates that 5..Qg6! is totally playable too, but suddenly my PC crashed ! and I lost all the material.!!

So if some players suggest 5..Qf7 is relatively unplayable ( I'm not allright ) I think 5..Qg6 Main line is reasonable as alternative after 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nf6!

Latvian is not dead yet ...

Will you please post these lines in pgn. It will be good to analyse.


Enclosed a PGN file with the Line 5..Qg6.

Indeed "g2-g4" yes, 11..Qd7?! is a dubious move. Only 11..Bc7 is the correct one.
« Last Edit: 09/12/10 at 13:09:57 by AMM »  

New.pgn ( 3 KB | Downloads )
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #106 - 09/12/10 at 04:54:42
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AMM wrote on 05/08/10 at 21:30:27:
I was writting a long article which demostrates that 5..Qg6! is totally playable too, but suddenly my PC crashed ! and I lost all the material.!!

So if some players suggest 5..Qf7 is relatively unplayable ( I'm not allright ) I think 5..Qg6 Main line is reasonable as alternative after 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nf6!

Latvian is not dead yet ...

Will you please post these lines in pgn. It will be good to analyse.
  

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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #105 - 09/10/10 at 12:37:34
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AMM wrote on 09/03/10 at 12:55:31:

10.Nexd5!? cxd5 11.Nb5 can be replied by means 11..Bc7 – safer – or even 11..Qd7


Personally, I never liked this queen retreat.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0–0 Bd6 10.Nexd5!? cxd5 11.Nb5 Qd7? 12.Bg5

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

A)      12...Be7 13.Re1 Kd8 Other moves are worse:
                13...Nf6 14.Bxf6 gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kd8 (15...Kf8 16.Nd4!) 16.Rad1 a6 17.Nc3 Bb4 18.Bf5 Qxf5 19.Rxd5+ Qd7 20.Rxd7+ Nxd7 21.Re3 Bxc3 22.Rxc3+- or
                13...a6 14.Qh5+ Kd8 15.Be3! Qc6 16.Nd4+-
14.Qd2 Black is totally undeveloped and it is not clear, how he can survive.
                14.Qh5 is also good, e.g. 14...Nc6 15.Qf7 Nf6 16.Qxg7 Rg8 17.Qxf6! Bxf6 18.Bxf6+ Ne7 19.Bxe7+ Qxe7 20.Rxe7 Kxe7 21.Nc7 Rb8 22.Nxd5+ Kf7 23.Bxh7+-
14...Nc6 let AMM to win nicely: (14...Nf6 was stronger, but nevertheless after 15.Rad1 White should win) 15.Qf4 Nh6 16.Rxe7 Nxe7 17.Re1 Re8 18.Nd6 Qc7 19.Rxe7 Qxe7 20.Nxe8 1–0 Melchor Munoz,A-De Jong,S/corr 1998

B)      12...Ne7 13.Qh5+ Kf8 or 13...g6 14.Bxg6+ Nxg6 15.Rfe1+ Kf7 16.Qf3+ Kg8 17.Qxd5+ Qf7 18.Qxd6+- 14.Rfe1 Nbc6 15.Re3+-

C)      12...Nf6 13.Re1+ Kf8
               a) 13...Kf7? 14.Bxf6 gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kg7 16.Nxd6 Qxd6 17.Re3+-;
               b) 13...Kd8? 14.Bxf6+ gxf6 15.Qf3 Rf8 16.Bc4!+- (Weaker is 16.Rad1? 1/2 Gaard,K (2287)-Downey,M (2372)/SEMI email 2002 (31) );
               c) 13...Be7? 14.Bxf6 gxf6 15.Qh5+ Kd8 (15...Kf8 16.Qh6+ Kf7 17.Re3+-) 16.Rad1;
14.Qf3 (14.Bxf6!?) Qd8 15.Bxf6 gxf6 was played in Borrmann,F-Gamant,G/Brazil CXEB 2000 and here again White could win after 16.Bc4! +-.

D)      Also, there’s no time to drive annoying knight away. If 12...a6, then 13.Re1+
« Last Edit: 09/10/10 at 16:14:09 by g2-g4 »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #104 - 09/06/10 at 21:53:02
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 19:06:04:

AMM,
May I ask your opinion about position after 
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. Bxa6 bxa6 10. Ne3 Nf6 11. f4 ? What would you suggest for Black?

    
Korch ( or any reader ): After your long analysis with 11..0-0-0 12.Qe2 Kb7 etc. ( page 3 )
in which despite of bad pawn structure, Black seems to have some compensation due to bishop pair and better development, and I'm not specially worried with this continuation. But, what`s about 11.b3!? Bd6 12.Qe2 0-0 13.Bb2  ? of an owner game Trofimov-Melchor, cr. VI LG World Ch. final, e-mail, 2010 ( still in progress at move 30 ) I was dragged to an "empty" position after 13..a5 ( better 13..Rae8 but 14.h3 is already upper hand ) 14.o-o-o Qd7 15.h3 Qc6?! 16.Qb5!?. Anyway Buecker reccomensation 7..Be6 perhaps we must to come back old 7..c6  8.Ne3 Nf6 etc. ?
    

 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #103 - 09/03/10 at 23:08:34
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/03/10 at 22:04:43:

I understand SWJediknights doubts ("I really don't think finding ways for Black to draw after long variations changes the assessment"), but I see the distilling of this "long variation" as a search for the truth, which can also teach us a lot about opening theory, the value of a pawn, the use of PCs and more. The assessment +/- may not be changed, but it may change our view what +/- means. 

The result can be a line which refutes the Latvian Gambit. But if such a line cannot be established, it would also be interesting. Some people solve tactical problems to improve their tactical vision. Studying the "Latvian ending" can be at least as useful, as a case study about how to draw a rook ending, or how to create winning chances in such an ending.  
 


Hope I didn't come across the wrong way- I was thinking purely in terms of the question "is the Latvian playable or not", not trying to suggest that this kind of analysis is futile on all counts.  I completely agree with the above, as someone who regularly takes an interest in analysis of sharp lines for similar reasons.

Re. AMM, in that last line, I've had a quick look at some deviations:
A) 22.Nxf5 Rxf5 23.Be3 Rb8 24.Re2 (24.b3 a6 25.Rac1 Nf4 26.g4 Rff8 27.Bxf4 Rxf4 leads to a better, but probably drawn, rook and pawn ending) 24...Re8 (24...Nf4 25 Rf2 +-) 25.Rf2 (25.Rae1 Nf4 forces the minor pieces off again, giving a drawish rook & pawn ending) 25...Rxf2 26.Bxf2 a6 27.Re1 Rxe1+ 28.Bxe1 Nf4 29.d4 leaving an ending with B+5Ps vs N+4Ps.  A sample line: 29...Ne2 30.Bc3 Kf7 (not 30...Nxc3 31.bxc3 +-) 31.g4 Kg6 32.Kg2 - to be honest I'm not sure if Black can hold this ending or not.

I agree with Stefan's suggestion of 19.Bxg6 hxg6 20.h3- I think even just looking at the position on a basic level, it must be an improved version of the same ending for White as it's Black's pawn structure that is worsened as a result of the knight-for-bishop exchange instead of White's.  Just out of interest I tried out 20...Bf5 21.Nd6 Bxc2 22.Rac1 Nb4 23.Re7 Rad8 24.Rb7 (24.Rxa7 Rxd6 25.Be7 Rc6 26.Bxb4 Rf2 27.Bc3 Be4 28.Re1 Rf7 29.Ra8+ Rf8 30.Rxf8+ Kxf8- the opposite-coloured bishops may give Black good drawing chances here) 24...Rxd6 25.Be7 Rb6 26.Rxb6 axb6 27.Bxf8 Kxf8 28.a3! (the point- admittedly spotted by Fritz rather than myself) 28...d4 29.Rf1+ Ke7 30.axb4, which leaves White an exchange up with excellent winning chances, so objectively speaking 21...Bxc2 doesn't appear to work.
« Last Edit: 09/04/10 at 00:50:40 by SWJediknight »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #102 - 09/03/10 at 22:04:43
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I am very glad to see AMM's fine report. Only rarely so much valuable material is published on this site. It is fascinating to see all these ideas and new attempts. In my ChessCafe articles I had hoped to present 3.Nxe5 Nf6 as a playable line for Black, while the part on 3...Qf6 was more meant as an overview on the available alternatives, to put 3...Nf6 in a context. However, 3...Nf6 4.Bc4! offers good chances for White, so I am now inclined to share AMM's view that 3...Qf6 represents Black's "hopes". 

I understand SWJediknights doubts ("I really don't think finding ways for Black to draw after long variations changes the assessment"), but I see the distilling of this "long variation" as a search for the truth, which can also teach us a lot about opening theory, the value of a pawn, the use of PCs and more. The assessment +/- may not be changed, but it may change our view what +/- means. 

The result can be a line which refutes the Latvian Gambit. But if such a line cannot be established, it would also be interesting. Some people solve tactical problems to improve their tactical vision. Studying the "Latvian ending" can be at least as useful, as a case study about how to draw a rook ending, or how to create winning chances in such an ending.  

AMM wrote on 09/03/10 at 12:55:31:
Any thoughts?, maybe 23.Rf1 Bd7 24.Rxf8+ Nxf8 25.Rd2 ?, or 22.Nxf5 Rxf5 23.Be3 looking  for an endgame where often Rook+Bishop is better than Rook+Knight ?; perhaps 17.Qxf6 Rxf6 18.Nxb7 Ng6 19.Bg5 etc. Or finally 16.Nxb7 Bf5 17.Qg5 Bxd3 18.Qxf6 Rxf6 19.cxd3 Ng6 20.Bg5 Rf8 21.Nc5 Nc6 22.Rac1 another time preserving the Bishop in an open middle game  ?. Anyway in all variations Black has good prospects on drawing endgame, even with a pawn down !!.

I'd slightly prefer 19.Bxg6 (instead of 19.Nd6) hxg6 20.h3, e.g. 20...Bf5 21.Nd6 Rab8 22.c4 dxc4 23.Nxc4 or perhaps 20...Nb4 21.Re7 Nc6 22.Rc7 Rac8 23.Rxc8 Bxc8 24.Nd6 Bd7 25.Kg1 Rb8 26.b3 Rb6 27.c4. The doubled g-pawn is a handicap, any combined R+B attack on g7 would be almost fatal. Pawn a2 is difficult to attack, a7-a5-a4 hardly possible. In spite of the opposite bishops White has substantial winning chances. 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #101 - 09/03/10 at 15:00:34
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Your analysis is very interesting, but IMHO doesn't change the assessment that with best play after 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4! and 3...Qf6 4.Nc4! Black ends up fighting for a draw in inferior endings, often being a pawn down and trying to neutralise White's resulting pawn majority.  Even if Black can draw them (which I think will probably turn out to be true with best play) it isn't what your typical gambiteer is looking for, especially when playing as sharp and risky a gambit as the Latvian.

So, to recap on that question, "is the Latvian playable?".   I really don't think finding ways for Black to draw after long variations changes the assessment (though it can be interesting).  Like with various other unsound-but-trappy gambits, it depends more on the level of opponents' play rather than the opening's objective merits, because ultimately what matters is that you get out of the opening with a decent middlegame.  For example, many players meet the Jadoul Gambit (1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4) with 4.Nf3 or 4.Be2, rather than the critical 4.f3 Bf5 5.g4, and many meet 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Qe7 with the harmless 4.g3 rather than the critical 4.Bf4, as Stefan Bucker has observed.  Many Latvian Gambit players appear to report much the same thing, with White often ducking out of the critical lines, or misplaying them on the rare occasions that White employs them, and for as long as that happens at a particular level the Latvian remains playable regardless of how unsound it is.  But once Black starts being presented with difficulties in the opening regularly it becomes hard to justify.

Of course it's also more of a risk to take for players striving to improve (who are likely to hit a barrier unless they move to more mainstream openings) than for players who strive mainly to have fun, which is also a consideration to bear in mind for those thinking of taking up the opening.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #100 - 09/03/10 at 12:55:31
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SEE ABOVE first part of the article - written the same day as a continuation -

I continue thinking Black best answer to 3.Nxe5 is 3..Qf6 despite of two tempos down with the Queen ( you know, afterwards will place on ‘g6’ or ‘f7’ depending circumstances ). Is well-known White can play 4.d4 or 4.Nc4 moves. Assuming 4.d4 is chosen, best reply in the Main Line as Black is 4..d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 and now 7..Be7!; see two recent examples:

8.Ne3!?  Nf6 ( 8..exf3 9.Qxf3 Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC Thematic, 2006-07 and now 9..Nc6 10.Bd3 Qf6 should be played ) 9.Be2 0-0 10.0-0 Nc6 ( better 10..exf3 ) 11.Nxe4 ( better 11.fxe4 ) 11..Nh5 ( also a bit preferable is 11..Nxe4 ) 12.Bc4+ Kh8 13.Nd5 Bh3 ( 13..Bd8!? ) 14.Qd2 Bh4 15.c3 Rae8 16.Bd3 ( 16.Ng5! ) 16..Qf7 17.Nf4? ( 17.Ng5 ) 17..Nxf4 18.Qxf4 Qxf4 19.Bxf4 Bxg2 20.Kxg2 Rxf4 with slight advantage ( Matisone-Kretainis, Riga, 2010. 0-1, 49 )

8.Nxe4 ( 8.fxe4 Nh6!? 9.Ne3 Nc6 of Zielinski-Melchor, corr. LADAC Thematic, 2008-09 and other games is more common answer ) 8..d5 9.Ne5 Qb6 10.Nc3 Nf6 11.Be2 0-0 12.0-0 Nc6 13.Nxc6 Qxc6 14.Re1 Bb4 15.Qd2 a6 16.a3 Bd6 17.Bd3 Bd7 18.Qg5 h6 19.Qh4 Rae8 20.Bd2 Qb6 21.a4 c5 unclear ( Melchor-Vicary, corr. VI LG World Chsp., 2010, 1/2-1/2, 50 )

Instead, if White move on 4.Nc4 directly, I think Black has several good replies; of course 4..fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 ( also it has been discussed 5..Qg6 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nf6!? and other sidelines ) 6.Ne3 d5!? , very large played in our Final of VI LG World Chsp. – started on February of this year -, but the new great surprise come in a theoretical “refuted” line which it has given a good result in a game of this Tourney:

The “sources” of classical line in this variation follows 6..c6 - instead of 6..d5!? – ( so because it cannot cope with Bc4 and Nxe4, with this move is abandoned the pawn to your destination in exchange for a slight progress in development ) 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9,0-0 and we reach to the critical position. Black has proved the most of the legal movements - up to 9 ! -; 9..Bc5 has always been the first line that was tested but from five years ago is known 10.b4! refutes whole System. However, what’s about ancient 9..Bd6 ?, Black has achieved some strategic advantages in long-term. So soon, has strengthened a central extra pawn and the position of his Queen will be quite useful when castling since it will pressure along ‘f’ column. Moreover, quickly will show he did achieve a showy game if complete the development of his pieces ..Bd6, ..Ne7, and ..0-0, the King will be safe while the White knights are poorly placed. The central  Black pawns prevent the Knights moving forward and e3 one also blocks the Bishop of ‘c1’. The only problem for the Black is in most of the lines must be observant to the sacrifices Nexd5 or Nc4 for the purpose of which is not another that obstruct the castling. After 10.Re1 ( 10.Nexd5!? cxd5 11.Nb5 can be replied by means 11..Bc7 – safer – or even 11..Qd7, rest of moves are weakers ) 10..Ne7 11.Nexd5 ( considered by GM John Nunn as best continuation, it is the more direct way of assaulting the solid Black centre. The other move 11.Nc4!? is out of date nowadays, after 11..dxc4 12.Bxc4 Black can answer 10..Qg6 or 10..Bxh2+! which leads to a safer equality after 13.Kxh2 Qxc4 14.Bg5 0-0 etc. ) 11..cxd5 12.Nb5 ( 12.Nxd5?? is a blunder, 12..Qxd5 13.Bg6+ Kd8 leaves the Queen defended ) 12..0-0 ( other 12th. deviations are bad ) 13.Nxd6 Qxf2+ 14.Kh1 Bg4 ( the only reasonable try 14..Nbc6 of French F. Destrebecq  is not valid after 15.Bg5 Qc5 16.Nxc8 Raxc8 17.Qg4 with strong attack ) 15.Qd2! ( better than simply 15.Be3 Bxd1 etc. ) and now instead of 15..Qh4 ( the endgame that follows exchanging Queens favours White and also if 15..Nbc6 16.Qxf3 Rxf2 17.h3 Bh5 18.Nxb7 Analysis, 1997 ) which is answered with Strautin’s  idea 16.b4! etc., in a game from myself, still in progress, Melchor-Trofimov, corr. VI LG Final World Chsp. , 2010 Russian player tried 15..Qf6 precisely considered as insufficient by an owner game from 1997 !!. My game have proceed 16.Qg5 Nbc6 ( in 1997 against Michael Downey I played weak 16..Qxg5?! 17.Bxg5 Nec6?! – or 17..Nc8 18.Nxb7 Nc6 19.c3 with advantage – 18.h3 Bd7 19.Nxb7 Nb4 20.Nc5 Nxd3 21.cxd3 with clear game ) 17.Nxb7 Qxg5 18.Bxg5 Ng6 19.Nd6 ( in Borrmann-Sánchez Ródenas, corr. LADAC Thematic, 2008-09 changed on 19.Bxg6 hxg6 20.h3 Bf5 21.Nd6 Rab8 22.c4 dxc4 23.Nxc4 Rb5 24.b3? – 24.h4 – 24..Bxh3 drawing in 62 moves ) 19..Nb4 20.h3 Nxd3 21.cxd3 Bf5 22.Rad1 Rab8 23.b3 Bd7 ( 23..a5!? ) 24.Be3 a6 25.Rf1 Ne7 26.Bc5 Bf5 27.Rfe1 Rf6 28.Nxf5 Rxf5 29.g4 Rf6 30.Kg2 Rc8 31.b4 Re8 32.Kg3 h6 33.Rxe8+ Bxe8 34.Re1 Bb5 35.Bd4 Rc6 36.Kf4 Bxd3 37.Re7 g5+ 38.Ke5 and I don’t see how can White win this endgame.

Any thoughts?, maybe 23.Rf1 Bd7 24.Rxf8+ Nxf8 25.Rd2 ?, or 22.Nxf5 Rxf5 23.Be3 looking  for an endgame where often Rook+Bishop is better than Rook+Knight ?; perhaps 17.Qxf6 Rxf6 18.Nxb7 Ng6 19.Bg5 etc. Or finally 16.Nxb7 Bf5 17.Qg5 Bxd3 18.Qxf6 Rxf6 19.cxd3 Ng6 20.Bg5 Rf8 21.Nc5 Nc6 22.Rac1 another time preserving the Bishop in an open middle game  ?. Anyway in all variations Black has good prospects on drawing endgame, even with a pawn down !!.

Sumarizing, Is still playable the Latvian ?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #99 - 09/03/10 at 12:05:05
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To sum up this debate:  Essentially FM Stefan Buecker wrote a series of long articles at www.chesscafe.com ( see above noted links in previous threads ) where he attempt to demonstrate us Line 3.Nxe5 Nf6  as “last hope” for Black in the Latvian, after analyzing relatively in depth the “consequences” of 3..Qf6 (http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss44.pdf ) with latest evolutions of Theory between 2008 and 2009 ( see also my own article “Latvian gambit refuted? of December, 2008 at http://www.ajedreznd.com/visor/leton1.htm - in two parts -, ... but in Spanish ).

From the publication of his articles ( at Summer 2009 ) the move have focalized some attention in the LG circles, f.i. some games of the VI Final LG World Chsp. have played with the move 3..Nf6.  With this answer 4.Qh5+ is avoided, and at worst Black loses totally a pawn but avoiding complicated variations as is usual in the rest of lines. Often a premature exchange of Queens is also produced with a subsequent exchange of flank pawns; Black gets good drawing prospects in this King flank on the later resulting three pawns against two. I will not explain the reason why 4.d4 and 4.Nc3 are considered marginal moves, but often 4.exf5 and 4.Bc4 have been tested as the most promising ones.

- 4.exf5 Qe7 ( 4..d6 5.Nf3 Bxf5 6.d4 is known as inferior ) 5.Qe2 d6 6.Nf3 ( 6.Nc4 could to seem a more ambitious approach but we will see White’s resources are much stronger after 6.Nf3, mainly because when the knight is redeployed to d4, it appears to be strong there. After 6.Nc4 a recent and fine defence as Black was shown in Pecis-Melchor, 2010 of the above noted Tourney: 6..d5 – 6..Bxf5 directly is also valid – 7.Nxe5 Bxf5 8.d4 Nc6!? – or 8..Nbd7 9.Nc3 0-0-0 – 9.Nxc6 bxc6 10.c4 – 10.c3 is analyzed extensively by Buecker; to me 10..c5!? comes into consideration – 10..Kf7 11.c5 - 11.Qxe7+ Bxe7 12.Nc3 Rab8 with counterplay – 11..Re8 12.Nc3 Qd8!? 13.Be3 g6 14.h3 Bh6 15.Nd1 Rhf8 16.Rg1 – 16.Qa6!? perhaps – 16..Kg8 etc. game still in progress, Black has almost equalized) 6..Bxf5 and now White has several possibilities: 7.Nd4 and 7.d3 are the most common moves, very well analyzed by Buecker in the second part of his article; I like the series of 7.Qxe7+ Bxe7  8.Nc3 – 8.d3 Nc6 transposes usually to 7.d3 – 8..c6 9.Nd4! (now ) 9..Bd7 – if 9..Bg6 then 10.f4 – 10.Be2 c5 where White maintain a slight initiative; but  I enjoy very specially with 7.Nc3 directly only played at once time in Koronowski-Hunstock, corr. ICCF, 1990-91. The idea of this move is not so much to avoid Queen exchange but first player is trying to gain time; either Black gains time with White playing Qxe7 or White gains time by having Black playing Qxe2. By maintaining the tension like this, White is basically limiting blacks options, so 7..Nc6 ( any of Black alternatives doesn’t seem to be better either, if f.i. 7..c6 first player can get the edge in two ways 8.d3 Na6 – 8..c5 9.Bg5 – 9.Be3 or 8.h3 c5 – 8..Nbd7 9.Nd4 Bg6 10.d3 – 9.Qxe7+ Bxe7 10.Bc4 ) 8.Qxe7+ Bxe7 9.Bb5! ( Making an uncomfortable move !, by transposition 9.d3 0-0-0 was already known in two games and also analyzed by Buecker; f.i. Jackson jr.-Diepstraten, corr. Thematic, 1985-87 continued with 10.Be2 and now instead of 10..Nb4?! Black must play 10..d5 11.0-0 Rhe8 – menacing ..d4 - 12.Bd1 h6 13.h3 g5 14.a3 a5 15.Re1 Bc5 German theoretician says that “Black controls more space and his pieces are placed on the “classical” squares,  while White’s position is somewhat cramped” ) 9..0-0 ( as we see later on a bit better should be 9..a6 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.de Bg4; on the other hand, logically, 9..Bxc2?? 10.Nd4 loses ) 10.d3 Nb4?! ( Black pieces aren't really coordinated to attack anything so they  have to expect moving the same piece a few times in order to get it into a more active position. The big problem with 10..Nb4?! is that moving the Knight to quite a bad square where it can be chased later and this will make second player loose quite a bit of the temporary activity, therefore 10..Bg4 is relative and probably best move in the position ) Now White consolidate his advantage after 11.Ba4 c6 12.0-0 d5 13.Re1 or model game 11. Bc4+ d5 12.Bb3 c6 13-0-0 etc. Come on with the second “Main” line:

- 4.Bc4(!) a jungle trip analyzed by myself in my previous thread, although now I MUST  RETRACT of my own  words !?. The game follows 4..Qe7 5.d4 ( defending the Knight and opening up the game; 7.Nf7?! and 7.Bf7+?! are weaker ) 5..Nc6 and we have entered, via transposition of moves,  in the Morgado System referred to the Argentinean GM after their successes  in earlier 70s ( 5..d6?! is weak for 6.Nf7 or even best 6.Bf7+! Kd8 7.Bb3 dxe5 8.dxe5+ Bd7 – 8..Nfd7 9.e6 Qd6 10.Bg5+ etc. – 9.exf6 – paradoxically now 9.e6 Qb4+ 10.Nc3 Bd6 already studied in 1907! is not so strong – 9..Qxe4+ - objectively 9..Qxf6 is a bit better – 10.Be3! of Downey-Destrebecq, corr., 1990-91 is White’s favor, if 10..f4 11.Qd4 or 10..gxf6 11.Nc3 etc. ). Now, for our interest, 6.0-0 is the correct move; the other main and “old” line was 6.Nc3!? Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 8.0-0 fxe4 9.Nd5 returning pawn, but opening the position and leaving the Black King and Queen in the same row, besides threatening Bf4. Due to it was correctly analyzed – by transposition, indeed - in my previous thread  ( game Fragola-Valverde, 2006-07 ) I will not stop here again. After 6.0-0 White has “only a slight advantage” according Tony Kosten, but this is not entirely correct; in the first stages of the System Black played 6..Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 ( 7..Nxe4 faces 8.Nc3! winning all the games ever played ) 8.exf5 Qxf5 and now instead of very long Buecker analysis on 9.Nc3 more lineal way is 9.Re1+ Kd8 – unique – of Grava-Grivainis, corr., 1970-71 where instead of played move 10.Be6 answered by 10..Qh5! 11.Qxh5 Nxh5  or 10.Nc3 Bc5 11.Be3 Bxe3 12.Rxe3 Qf4 where the exchange of Bishops can make Black’s task easier ( Rybka3 ), White should try 10.Be3 d5 11.Nc3 c6 12.Bd3 -12.Bd4 Bd6 13.Bxf6+ gxf6 J.Swaffield – 12..Qd7 13.Bf4 with advantage; maybe 10..Bd6 11.Nc3 Ng4 12.g3 Rf8 Rybka3 again, is better.

But returning to our way, after 6.0-0, the other known line, true “acid test” and wherever LG is under a cloud is the move 6..fxe4 because of 7.Ng4! ( before 7.Nc3, 7.Nf7 or even another moves less clear was played ). Buecker give the continuation with 7..d5 8.Nxf6+ Qxf6 9.Bxd5 Bf5 10.Nc3 0-0-0 11.Be3 concluding  Black has no compensation for the pawn, but I myself tried to improve Black’s play, ...athough it seems I didn't get it: ( now I will analyze more deeply my game noted in the previous thread ) 7..Nxg4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 ( 8..Nb4 9.d5 Qe5 10.Re1 d6 11.Qd1 or 8..d6 9.Qd1 Bf5 10.f3 0-0-0 11.fxe4 Qxe4 12.Rf4! Qxc2 13.Qf1 both of Buecker are also not enough ) 9.Nc3 ( better than 9.Re1 d5! 10.Qh5+ Qf7 11.Rxe4+ Be6 12.Qd5 Rd8 13.Qa5 Be7 14.Bxe6 Nxe6 15.Nc3 0-0 solving little by little all the problems, Hjortstam-Zanolin,ICCF, e mail, 2008-09 and 11.Qxd5 Qxd5 12.Bxd5 Bf5! 13.Bxe4 0-0-0 14.Bxf5+ Nxf5 15.Bg5 Be7 etc, where Black has a pawn down but his position is not bad ) 9..c6 10.Qd1! b5 ( as I've pointed, logical 10..Ne6 seems dubious, f.i. 11.Re1 d5 12.Nxd5! cxd5 13.Qxd5 Qf6 14.Re1 with an edge, and also 10..Qe5 11.Nxe4 d5 12.Ng5 Be7 13.Re1 with attack ) 11.Qxd4 bxc4 12.Nxe4 ( or 12.Qxc4 ) and as we see White’s advantage is enormous Jendrian-Melchor, corr. VI Final LG World Chsp., 2010 game still in progress. Ironically White didn’t found best plan to increase the initiative and now Black’s game have counter played !?: 12..d5 13.Re1 ( 13.Bg5! ) 13..dxe4 14.Qxc4 Bb7 15.h4 (!? – but not 15.Rxe4 0-0-0 ) 15..0-0-0 16.Bg5 Qd7 17.Bxd8 Qxd8 18.Rad1 Bd6 ( 18..Qf6 19.Rxe4 Be7 20.Rf4 ) 19.Qd4 Bc7 20.Qxg7 Qg8 21.Qe7 Qg6 22.Qxe4 c5 23.Qxg6 hxg6 24.Re7 Bd8 25.Rf7 Be4 26.c4 ( better 26.Rxa7 Bxh4 27.Ra4 with advantage ) 26..Bxh4 27.Rdd7 ( 27.Re1 Bf5 28.Rxa7 was better again ) 27..Rd8 28.Rxa7 Rd1+ 29.Kh2 Bd8 30.f3 Bc6 and now is not easy for the first player intend to win, so both Black Bishops whisper the Rooks !.

TO BE CONTINUE BELOW
« Last Edit: 09/03/10 at 13:29:28 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #98 - 05/10/10 at 20:40:10
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AMM wrote on 12/29/09 at 16:11:14:
Stefan and "Conquistador PREVIOUS THREAD":

The Main Line from 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3, allows besides 5..Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? ( which it must be analyzed in depth, so although Black sacrifices a pawn, his development is up, and  practice has shown it is very difficult for White to win ), the former move 5..Qg6.

The move was already quoted in http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1239692688 . I wrote something more in my own blog (http://amm-ajedrezando.blogspot.com/2009/11/gambito-leton-analisis-1.html in Spanish ), but now I will translate it here:

After 5..Qg6, as I have quoted, Black Queen is a bit exposed and White often proceed with its relentless with d3 and after the exchange of pawns recapturing with the Bishop. Although it was the initial line, was gradually abandoned ( in favour of 5..Qf7 ) until recently amateur David Zimbeck in his web http://www.zimbeckchess.com/chess_site_006.htm may have recovered somewhat its value.

Zimbeck maintains after well-known and natural White moves 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2, Black must now play directly 7..Nf6! ( instead of 7..Bxc3 8.Bxc3 Nf6 so it permits 9.Bxf6! gxf6 10.Ne3!? or 10.dxe4 Qxe4+ 11.Ne3 where White returns the Bishop pair for a more stable advantage in pawn structure ) so even losing a whole pawn, allows second player remain in the game:

- 8.dxe4 0-0?! 9.f3 d5 10.Nxd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Bc5 first played in Melchor-Valverde, cr. LADAC thema prel., e-mail, 2006/07, ( 1/2-1/2, 47 ) led to a difficult ending where White never seemed with possibility of win; my position was always better, but the Black position was sound.

Only recently this idea was refuted by myself !: 12.Be3 Bxe3 13.Nxe3 Qb6 14.Qd2 Qxb2 15.Rd1 Qxa2? 16.Bc4 Qa3 17.d6+ Kh8 18.dxc7 Nd7 19.Kf2 Nf6 and now new improvement 20.Qd8! Ne4+ 21.Kf1 h6 22.Qd4 Nf6 23.Qd6 +- with a technical winning position, Melchor-Pecis, cr. IV LG World Tourney final, e-mail, 2010

- 8.dxe4 Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Nxe4 10.Bd3 0-0 11.0-0 Nxc3 12.bxc3 is known, by traspostion on 7..Bxc3 8.Bxc3 Nf6 9.dxe4 Nxe4 - but avoiding 9.Bxf6! etc. -, from first thematic tournaments of 1970's ( also Hagen Tiemann in the second 1989 edition of his book of Latvian, page 22 ). I have 26 games, from this position, it has been tested 12..Qg5; 12..Qh6; and 12..Qf6. I believe this last move, 12..Qf6 ( 12 games ), is pehaps best one. I cannot deny after 13.Qh5 g6 14.Qa5 Qd8!? (N) ( I don't like risky 14..Nc6 of Tiemann, or 14..c6?! played in several games, buy maybe 14..Na6 is possible so White had a only s small pull after 15.Ne3 c6 16.Bxa6 bxa6 17.Qc5 in Zaniratti-Neumann, cr. IV LG World Tourney prel., e-mail, 2001/02 ) and with the help of ... engines, the position, although "nasty" and  poorly developed for Black, is perfectly playable, … at least in postal chess ( I myself have tested in dotens of lines ). For instance: 15.Qd5+ Kh8 16.f4 ( 16.Rae1 Nc6 17.Ne5 Qf6 18.f4 Ne7 ) 16..d6 17.Na5 Qf6 18.Nxb7 c6 19.Qb3 Nd7 20.Na5 Nc5 21.Qa3 Bd7 22.Rae1 Kg8 with a comfortable play. Truly it's a sad Black recourse on these lines, but what else? if we have so tight margin !. At first glance, 6..Qd8!? seems paradoxically retrogade, but is in fact the strongest possibility; since it also posts the Queen on a relatively safe square and clears the way for the development

- 8.Nxe4 Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 ( American player also gives 9.Nexd2 0-0 10.Ne1 d5 and both 11.d4 or 11.Nf3, then 11..Ng4! ) 9..d5!? ( 9..0-0 of Rozzoni-Gaard, cr. LG III World Tourney final, e-mail, 2002/03 is also possible, but not so good: 10.0-0-0 d5 11.Ne5 Qf5 12.Nxf6+ Qxf6 13.d4 ). This position was known from a game Ginzburg-Perez Pietronave, Argentina, 1995 which it followed according to the recommendation of the "engines" 10.Nxf6+ Qxf6 11.Qe3+ Be6 12.Ne5 0-0 13.Be2 ( 13. d4 Nc6 Zimbeck, and now could be continue 14.Bd3 Bf5 15.0-0 Bxd3 16.cxd3 Qd6 without problems ) 13..Nd7 14.d4 and now diverting from the game, Black should play 14..Nxe5 15.dxe5 Qg6 ( or even 14..Qf4 ) which it takes to a comfortable position, and also recovering the pawn.

It is already noteworthy Zimbeck show next beautiful line: 10.Ne5 Nxe4! 11.Nxd2 Nxg6 12.Nxf1 Nxh8 etc. subject of debate linked above and although engines spend a few time in viewing, just give reason Black side.


Hmm,... as I told you previously I think we should write another book  Cheesy so i'ts impossible to talk all time on Latvian !?
 
 


"Djy" member Also another counter-analysis without any pretention just on refuting your line !! and to advocate on 5..Qg6 and 7..Nf6! :

8.Nb5 Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 Na6 10.dxe4 Qxe4+ 11.Ne3 0-0 12.Bc4+ Kh8 13.0-0 d6 14.Rae1 ( or 14.Nc3 Qf4 - 14..Qh4!? - 15.f3 Nc5 16.g3 Qh6 17.b4 Ne6 18.f4 Ad7 = Slavchev-Garcia E., cr.LADAC thema prel., e-mail, 2006/0714..Bd7 15.Nd4 Qf4 16.g3 Qh6 17.f3 Rae8 18.Bxa6 bxa6 19.Qc3 Bh3 20.Rf2 Qg5 21.f4 Qg5 = give an easy equality Elburg-Melchor, cr. IV LG World Tourney final, e-mail, 2010; game still in progress

READ above Thread answering Stefan and "Conquistador" so I've updated it for this mail
« Last Edit: 05/11/10 at 14:28:12 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #97 - 05/09/10 at 17:25:27
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Yiou've enterely right, OTB  below 2200-2300 the better opening is the opening you know! Wink
  

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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #96 - 05/09/10 at 14:52:19
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The "philosophical" controversial on LG is essentially futil, Latvian Gambit is not for everyone nor anyone. Latvian gambiteers know how much are they risking, and they enjoy it !!.

It is my main weapon against 1.e4 in OTB's time control ( level 2100 FIDE rating ), but also it's interesting in fast time controls so is really dangerous weapon as unprepared opponents . There are many chances to fall in openings traps and even if they don't fall into them, they spend more time than I do and usually I'm more familiar with typical middle game positions which arises from the opening. 

In CC, email games or analizing positions all is very more easy, Theory has evolutioned so much and every day all new analysis are shown ( for instance, see long articles above ).

SWJediknight indeed, old Keres 'positional refutation' 3.Bc4 is not true after 3..fxe4 4.Nxe5 d5! or even with the Poisoned 'g2 pawn' after 4..Qg5!? already analyzed at http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1194567910/15 . After 4..d5! 5.Qh5+ g6 6.Nxg6 hxg6 ( 6..Nf6!? ) 7.Qxh8 Kf7 8.Be2 Nc6 9.Qd4 Be6 10.Qe3 ( 10.Qa4 Bc5! ) 10..Bh6 for the exchange and a pawn, Black has a significant lead in development and a formidable pawn center; it remains for practice to determine if Black's compensation is adequate, but tests so far have been in his favor, f.i. 11.f4 and second player can choose 11..Nge7 or 11..d4 etc., and finally 11.Qg3 ( retaining the possibility of challenging Black's center by f3 ) and Black can try 11..Nge7; 11..Nf6 or 11..Nd4. Anyway I prefer 7.Qxg6+ hoping to profit from the exposed state of Bkack's King before Black's extra minor piece begins to assert itself; after 7..Kd7! 8.Bxd5 Nf6 where if White don't play for the attack and completing his development, he can soon find himself in trouble.

Refering on 3.Nxe5 Nf6!? 4.Bc4(!) variation, analyzed deeply by FM Stefan Buecker at www.chesspub.com ( see Archives - Over the Horizons - "Lower life in the Latvian gambit" part 3 http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss46.pdf ), I myself wrote to German theorist he has some innacuracy in their analysis. After 4..Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 7.Ng4! Nxg4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 (N) 9.Nc3!? ( 9.Re1 d5! was quoted previously and 9.Qd1 directly, then 9..Qe5 ) 9..c6 10.Qd1 c6 ( logical 10..Ne6 seems dubtious, f.i. 11.Re1 d5 12.Nxd5! cxd5 13.Qxd5 Qf6 14.Re1 with an edge ) 11.Qxd4 bxc4 12.Nxe4 d5 of Jendrian - Melchor, LG World Tourney final, cr. email, 2010 ( game still in progress ) is far to be clear after 13.Re1 dxe4 14.Qxc4 Bb7 15.Rxe4 0-0-0.

Finally, also 7.Nc3 Nxe5 8.dxe5 Qxe5 9.Nd5 was reccomended by Buecker ( or trasposition via 6.Nc3 Ne5 7.de5 Qe5 8.0-0 fxe4 9.Nd5 ) where White returns the pawn but leaving Black's King and Queen on the same file in an ever opening position, and now even threatens Bf4; so after 9..Nxd5 10.Bxd5 besides correct Buecker's reccomendation 10..Bd6!? I think 10..c6 11.Be4 Bd6 12.f4 can be answer by 12..Bc5+ 13.Kh1 Qd4 14.Qxd4 ( 14. Qe2 or any move, 14..0-0 without problems ) 14..Bxd4 15.c3 Bb6 = Fragola - Valverde, LADAC thematic prelim., cr. email, 2006/07 ( by trasposition ! ) while 12.g3 0-0 13.Qd3 h6 trasposes again (!) to the noted Buecker analysis after 10..Bd6!? 11.g3 c6 12.Be4 c6 13.Qd3 h6 "when Black can probably hold" in his own words

   I think the eternal debate is complicated, more if "theoretically" speaking anybody can analyze f.i with Rybka or other engines. At present much of the Latvian theory Main lines leads to positions where Black is just a pawn down. ( f.i. "key" position after 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!?. The relative "adventage" of using in OTB is most opponents has lack knowledge, and with my own experience is playable below 2200-2300 FIDE rating, so any White player will know encyclopaedic work on his head. I completely agree to the fans that if you win games with the Latvian ( or anything else ), and if you love playing it, then you should continue to play it. However, I also make clear that at the highest levels it's just not going to hold up.
 
« Last Edit: 05/09/10 at 20:11:35 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #95 - 05/09/10 at 12:20:54
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Some very quick analyse without any pretention just to be more concrete

Site "?"]
[Date "1999.10.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Analyse 5.-Qg6"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "line"]
[ECO "C40"]
[Annotator "Dji"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnb1kbnr/pppp2pp/5q2/8/2N1p3/2N5/PPPP1PPP/R1BQKB1R b KQk - 0 5"]
[PlyCount "72"]
[EventDate "1999.??.??"]

5... Qg6 6. d3 
(6. Nd5!?  Na6 
(6... Bd6?!  7. Nxd6+ Qxd6 8. Qg4 Kf8 9. Qxe4 Nf6 10. Nxf6 Qxf6 11. d4 Qf7 12. Bd3 d5 13. Qf4 Nc6 14. c3 Nd8 15. O-O Ne6 16. Qg3 c6 17. b3 Kg8 18. f4 Qc7 19. Ba3 g6 20. Rae1 Kg7 21. Qh4 Re8 22. f5 gxf5 23.Rxf5 Bd7 24. Rf7+ {1-0 Malmstrom,J-Mc Allister,K/Latvian Gambit Thematic (A) 1997})
7. d4 Nf6 8.Ne5 Qf5 9. g4! Qxg4??  10. Nxf6+ {1-0 Malmstrom,J-Giancotti,E/Latvian Gambit Thematic (A) 1997})
6... Bb4 7. Bd2 Nf6! 8. Nb5 Bxd2+ 9. Qxd2 Na6 (9... Kd8 10. Ne3 Nc6 11. O-O-O ) 10. dxe4 Qxe4+
(10...Nxe4 11. Qd4 O-O 12. Ne5 Qf5 13. Bc4+ Kh8 14. O-O Ng5 15. Bd3 Qf4 16. Rae1 Ne6 17. Qxf4 Rxf4 18. g3 Rf6 19. f4 d6 20. f5 dxe5 21. fxe6 Rxf1+ 22. Bxf1 Bxe6 23. Rxe5 Bxa2 24. b3 Nb4 25. Nc3 b6 26. Re7 c6 27. Rc7 Kg8 28. Bg2 Re8 29. Bxc6 Nxc6 30. Rxc6 Bb1 31.Nxb1 Re1+ 32. Kf2 Rxb1 33. Rc8+ Kf7 34. Rc7+ Ke6 35. Rxa7 Rb2 36. Rc7 Kd6 37.
Rc8 )
11. Ne3 Qe5 12. O-O-O Ne4 13. f4 Qxb5 14. Bxb5 Nxd2 15. Rxd2 Nc5 16.Re1 O-O 17. Bc4+ Kh8 18. Nd5 c6 19. Nc7 Rb8 20. b4 Na6 21. Bxa6 bxa6 22. a3 a5 23. bxa5 Kg8 24. g3 d5 25. Rde2 Bg4 26. Re7 Rf7 27. Na6 Rb5 28. Nb4 Rxe7 29.
Rxe7 Rxa5 30. Nxc6 Rxa3 31. Rxa7 Rxa7 32. Nxa7 Bd7 33. Kb2 Kf7 34. Kb3 Kf6 35.Kb4 Kf5 36. Kc5 Ba4 37. c3 Kg4 38. Kxd5 Kh3 39. Ke4 Kxh2 40. Kf3 Bb3 41. f5 line

I know long variation, bad variation! 


  

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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #94 - 05/09/10 at 10:26:12
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It's astonishing how much computers have changed the assessments of such chaotic opening lines.  Batsford Chess Openings 2, for instance, assesses 3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.Qh5+ ("?") as leading to -/+.  As for the line itself, I wasn't completely convinced by the 8.d3 line (Black does get some practical chances, even though White is probably winning with best play) but Stefan Bücker's paradoxical suggestion 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.d3! looks very convincing for White.  (Black has other 8th-move tries but they all seem to be refuted by 9.d3 as well).

I think White may objectively be better in the analogous line 3.Bc4 fxe4 4.Nxe5 d5 5.Qh5+ g6 6.Nxg6 hxg6 7.Qxh8 Kf7 8.Qd4!, though Black's practical chances are excellent there.

I don't play the Latvian but often take an interest in these sorts of tactical lines.  It will be interesting to see if Black can make either 5...Qf7 or 5...Qg6 playable but as Craig Evans said earlier, White has all the fun there, unfortunately for Latvian fans (as the other lines bar 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4! or 3...Nf6 4.Bc4! don't look too bad for Black).
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #93 - 05/08/10 at 21:30:27
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I was writting a long article which demostrates that 5..Qg6! is totally playable too, but suddenly my PC crashed ! and I lost all the material.!!

So if some players suggest 5..Qf7 is relatively unplayable ( I'm not allright ) I think 5..Qg6 Main line is reasonable as alternative after 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Nf6!

Latvian is not dead yet ...
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #92 - 05/07/10 at 23:15:01
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It's nice to see you ever-enthusiastic about Latvian, Alejandro.  Wink Well, maybe idea would be simply to protect g2 pawn with a rook? 20.Rg1 (in the b1 variation)?
20...Nd8 21.Raf1. Now if Black exchanges rooks, it leaves him with unpleasant choice whether to give up b7 pawn immediately, or to allow Qc7. To prevent the latter 21...Ne6 looks essential, 22.Rxf2 Rxf2 23.Qe1 Rf8 (23...Qf4 fails to 24.Nf5 Bxf5 25.Bc1!) and b7 pawn is probably eatable by this time 24.Nxb7, followed by Ba3 or even Nc5.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #91 - 05/05/10 at 02:16:18
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CONTINUATION:

.. players played this, but after 17.Qg5! his position is ruined; 17..Qxa1? is loser and relatively best continuation 17..Nbc6 gives comfortable adventage after 18.Qxg4 Qxd6 19.Bd2 or 19.Bb2 etc. ) 17.Bb2 and now follows the NEW analysis, specially with 17..Rad8:

b1) 17..Rf2 Objetively, is a reasonable move ...but his idea is very proof and even the engines can not see it !! ( 17..a6 18.Qc3 Rf6 19.Nxb7 ) 18.Qc3 Qh6 ( in other four games 18..Qg5? was played but White got excellent position with fine moves: 19.Rf1 Raf8 20.Rxf2 Rxf2 23.Qe1! and in all games first player won inmediately ) 19.b5 we are following a game Elburg-Viola, corr. email IV LG World Tourney, 2002 when suddenly Black did a surprising move 19..Raf8!? ( perhaps a home preparation, so one year later Black mistake with 19..Bf3 20.Rg1 d4 21.Qe1) White, unwary, replied with the simple 20.bxc6 and then 20..Rxg2!! was a bomb!. The game was drawn ten moves later, but can the reader see the best moves of the rest of the game ? ...

I don't remember where, but this game submited the glance of FM Stefan Bücker and I know he published some analysis starting with 20.Bf1! Nd8 21.Qg3 but I lost them, so I've tried on rebuilding some, f.i.:

21..Rxc2 ( 21..Bd7 22.Bd3 ) 22.Ba3 ( 22.Rxe7 Rxb2 23.Qxg4 Rbf2 with counterplay ) and now:

- 22..Be6? 23.Bd3 Rd2 ( 23..Rcf2 24.Bc1; 23..Rff2 24.Bxc2 Rxc2 25.Nxb7 ) 24.Nxb7 ( probably 24.Bb4 or 24.Tf1 are also possible ) 24..Nxb7 ( 24..Rff2? 25.Bc1 ) 25.Bxe7 Re8 26.Bb4 Txd3 27.Qxd3

- 22..Bh5 ( better ) 23.Bd3 ( in view of future evaluation with "Main line" maybe it would be neccesary to improve with 23.Rxe7 Qf6 24.Nf5 Qxa1 25.Qxg7+ Qxg7 26.Rxg7+ etc. ) 23..Rxg2 24.Kxg2 ( maybe 24.Qxg2 is best ) 24..Rf3 25.Txe7 Rxg3+ 26.hxg3 Qd2+ 27.Be2 h6 28.Rf1 Qxa2 29.Rf2 Bxe2 30.Rfxe2 Qxa3 31.Re8+ Kh7 32.Rxd8 Qd3 33.Re7 Qd2 34.Kh3 Qd1 35.Rdd7 Qh1+ 36.Kg4 Qd1+ = and I think White king can not scape of pepetual check. Anybody can deny it's a nice line

b2) 17..Rad8 18.Qc3 ( maybe 18.Nxb7 directly or 18.Rf1!? are possible too ) and now the surprise. In all games Black only played 18..Qg5 19.Nxb7 Rb8 etc. losing relatively quick, but why not 18..Rf6! aiming square f8 for the other rook if White capture in b7 ? ( But not 18..Qf6 19.Nxb7 Rb8 20.Nc5 Qxc3 21.Bxc3 ). So:

- 19.Nxb7 Rdf8 ( 19..Rb8? 20.b5 Txb7 21.bxc6 Nxc6 22.Qc5 Ne7 23.Bxf6 Qxf6 24.Rab1 ) 20.b5 R8f7! 21.Qxc5 ( a pretty lines are 21.bxc6 Rh6 22.h3 Bxh3 24.Bxh7+ Kh8!; or 21.Ba3 Rf2 22.Bf1 Be2!! - 22.Rg1 Bf3!! - ) 21..Rh6 22.Qg1 ( displacing the queen in an "ugly" square ) 22..Nb4 23.Be5 Nxd3 24.cxd3 Ng6 25.Nc5 Nxe5 26.Rxe5 Rf2 27.Re8+ Kf7 28.Rae1 Rxa2 29.Na6 Rf2 30.R8e7+ Kg8 31.Nb4 R8f6 32.Re8+ Rf8 33.Rxf8+ Rxf8 and Black seems to resolve the situation.

Ideas?,

             Alejandro Melchor.

« Last Edit: 05/05/10 at 22:27:29 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #90 - 05/05/10 at 00:18:15
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Recapitulation: ( Update and English translation of a well-known article by myself originally published in Spanish at www.ajedreznd.com over the refutation of Latvian gambit and extensively analyzed in this Forum and older ones ).

Summarizing, Latvian gambit reputation is nowadays under a cloud if White choose critical 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4! with Budovskis' line 7.d3! so first player position is very strong and Black can only hope to get a draw in difficcult endgames with a pawn down, but I think I've found new resources from known positions of Latvian theory

Let's go with my long article:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Undoubtedly this move is the only way to question the Black game. Traditionally has been considered strongest one, and additionally is the most natural. Older books suggested 3.Bc4 but this move it's not easy to learn. After 3..fxe4 4.Nxe5 d5! or crazy 4..Qg5!? you need to have quite an amount of concrete knowledge to play it. That is not unlike many other openings, but here the consequences of forgetting something can be fatal due to the very tactical nature and so I don't recommend it. It may be fine for White, but it involves too much study for a line that doesn't come up very often. Also it's impossible to remember all the tricks, but if someone plays this, it's very likely that they at least know this line and White players have to constantly be on their guard. 

3...Qf6. The possibility 4.Dh5+ should be avoided. The other Main Variation starts with 3..Nc6.  A great amount of theory it has accumulated with this move in which Black offers a pawn (at least) to get the initiative. The devotees of the Fraser variation tend to ignore the merits of the main line 3...Qf6, because this covers a territory very broad and requires a very thin judgement. Obviously, there are two moves that we see quickly: 4.Cxc6 and 4.Dh5+. With the last one, White enters to the speculative game that allows his rival and is going to win material after 4...g6 5.Cxg6 etc. With 4.dxc6 Cxc6 one feels that is playing with Black: the smaller pieces came into play quick and easily, pressing in open central columns, especially when castling Queens flank; meanwhile, White has not moved his‘d’ pawn to give life to his bishop of 'c1', even more, it doesn’t have pieces in the King flank and if try castle in this corner, this deficiency will launch Black the attack. Although is extensively analyzed, sceptics can point out all of this discussion is sterile due to it doesn’t take into account the supposed refutation of GM John Nunn with the move 4.d4, but really the variation is on whole refuted from long time ago and paradoxically with the classical 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Nxg6 etc. in several ways

There is another move which we should focus some attention: 3..Nf6 analyzed in www.chesscafe.com by German theorician and FM Stefan Bücker ( see "Over the Horizons" into the Archives file ). It is not the purpose of this article but the importance of this move is one of the last resources as Black on Latvian gambit.
With this answer we avoid 4.Dh5+ and at worst Black loses totally a pawn, but avoiding complicated variations as is usual in the rest of lines. Often a premature exchange of Queens is also produced with a subsequent exchange of flank pawns; Black gets good drawing prospects in this King flank on the later resulting three pawns against two

4.Nc4 The most obvious move is 4.d4 but it’s necessary to know amount of theory. Usually the way follows with 4..d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 and now White can choose between the positional manoeuvres 6.Be2 or 6.Ne3, and more open lines from 6.Nc3 Qg6. The move chosen as Main variation, was an invention of Leonhardt, which intends a rapid game pieces and allow the possibility of attacking the pawn ‘e4’ with ‘d3’ at sometime.

4...fxe4 5.Nc3

5.d3 immediately is very innocuous

5...Qf7 At the beginning of the gambit, the moves 5...Qg6 and 5...Qe6 -, by the way, often they transposes - were invariably played, but for years have forgotten; the queen was subject to persecution by White - even if it was necessary sacrificing pawns- thing that allowed a rapid development mounting devastating attacks. In 1970, the German theoretical Gerhard Gunderam proposed 5...Qf7!, here the queen is safer, and with it the Black prepares to solve their problems of development,  ( to be threat ..d5 forming a solid center and released box f6 for the knight ), but all this implies neglect their own pressure on 'e4' and that many times the pawn is slaughtered. This variation is by far the most practiced from long time ago, specially by CC players. The other one is the IMPORTANT 5..d5!?

6.Ne3 Stops ..d5 and threat Bc4, so the Black should make a move that paralyzed such a possibility, otherwise will have a great difficulty of development. There is another alternative considered by Minev as even better, 6.d4!? but Black has sufficient resources to equalize, but should play with caution. Of course not 6.Nxe4?? d5 7.Ne5 Df5 -+ losing the knight.

6...c6 As it has been said, because of it can not stand up to Bc4 and Nxe4, with this move the pawn is abandoned to your destination on exchange for a slight progress in development and a large amount of fun !. In other words everything that is denied on the other lines !. Now for the first player is open two possibilities: to refuse the pawn with the move of IM CC Inesis Budovskis 7.d3, - known for a long time - or capture with 7.Nxe4. Both are considered as the critical lines of the whole of gambit, and where from few years ago has been built his prosecution. It is difficcult to predict which is the most successful and really is almost a matter of taste: 7.d3 leads to a very much alive game with constant sacrifices that will need to know well, while 7.Nxe4 leads to a game very technical and positional where it closes in extreme and White has difficulties to assert the advantage material. We will focus on 7.d3 because it leads to the "refutation" we are looking for and we will leave 7.Nxe4 to another day.

7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 White has a substantial progress in development, but the Black has achieved some strategic assets at long term. He has an extra central pawn and the position of his queen will turn out to be quite useful if he castles kingside since it will pressure along the f-file. Indeed, it becomes apparent that Black will have a fine if he has a few tempi to complete his development. After ..Bd6, ..Ne7, and 0-0 his king will be safe while the white knights are poorly placed. Black's central pawns prevent the knights from moving forwards and the e3 knight blocks bishop c1. The only problem for Black is in most of the lines he must put attention to the sacrifices by Nexd5 or Nc4 to disturb Black before he can castle.

9.0-0 and we have reached to the critical position; Black has tested most of the legal moves - up to 9 !! - but finally only two of them has been called to be satisfactory:

A) 9...Bc5 has always been the first line that was played, it was considered refuted during years but Black got some success with the rehabilitated line 10.Na4 Bd6 11.c4 Ne7 12.cxd5 cxd5 13.Nc3 0-0! ( or 12.Nc3 0-0! 13.cxd5 cxd5 ) where it was also spurred thanks to a series of games wherever Black achieved comfortable positions; see for instance http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/040703_anthr_olk_atth_ltvn_gmbt.htm...

However, at the end of the year 2005 the amateur English player Steve James proposed the surprising move 10.b4!! analyzed firstly in www.jeremysilman.com/chess_letters/040223_splat_the_lat.html and one year later again by the same author ( so I myself found new defensive resources ) in www.jeremysilman.com//chess_opng_anlys/040223_more_splat_the_lat.html ) and the strong player Swedish Magnus Rosenstielke was the first to put it into practice in three of his games. Long analysis and definitive refutation was also noted HERE in the forum http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1194567910/15 and the collaboration of Russian I.Terenin was highly appreciated. As we know, this variation is being a true massacre for Black in last games and we can finish is nearly lost, and subsequently many people told Latvian was definitebely refuted, BUT .... 

B) 9..Bd6 Trickiest, this move it was also well-known, and objetively was the first tested. It was rejected after strong Novelty of CC IM Viiljams Strautins at 16th. move in the Main Line. Come on with the analysis:

10.Re1 ( 10.Nexd5!? cxd5 11.Nb5 is also dangerous but at present is known 11..Bc7 or 11..Qd7!? are sufficient ) 10..Ne7 ( Unique, any other move is loser so White prepares for instance 11.Nexd5 ) 11.Nexd5! ( the exclamation mark is on NCO; Kosten say " this move is better than 11.Nc4!? so focuse on this more direct way of assaulting the solid Black centre" ) 11..cxd5 12.Nb5 White has translated his lead in development into an attack. Most opponents will not last long in such a position, but even if they know the best moves they will still stand worse. This is a highly tactical position and it is easy for Black to make fatal missteps; logically 12.Nxd5?? is a blunder so after 12..Qxd5 13.Bg6+ Kd8 leaves the queen defended. 12..0-0 ( Any other move as 12..Qf6?; 12..Bxh2+? and 12..Bf4?! are bad and there are many games about ) 13.Nxd6 Qxf2+ 14.Kh1 Bg4 the only reasonable try 15.Qd2 ( better than 15.Be3 Bxd1 16.Bxf2 Bxc2 17.Bxc2 Rxf2 = as played by myself in 1989 ) 15..Qh4 ( the exchange of queens isn't good: 15…Qxd2 16.Bxd2 threatens Rxe7 and Nxb7, but the big point is White's lead in development and Black's weaknesses such as e6 ) 16.b4! ( Strautin's idea. White prepares to bring his bishop to the a1-h8 diagonal, whilst at the same time b4-b5 can be a useful resource. 16.Nxb7 is the other played move, but is too time consuming; in the seven known games Black has easy play ) 16..Nbc6 ( First Black reaction would be to play 16..Qf6 menacing the rook, in fact many play   


 
  
« Last Edit: 05/05/10 at 22:21:41 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #89 - 02/09/10 at 16:28:25
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Yes, while there's room for some argument over the extent of White's advantage I think you've shown enough to illustrate that the 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2 line is less critical than previously assumed because of 6...Qd8!, which I overlooked when I last looked at the line.  9...0-0 is an improvement over the 9...c6 given in Fritz's openings book, more flexible and making it harder for White to mount a serious attack on the e-pawn.

I had a closer look at 7.Bh5+ g6 8.Bg4 Nf6 9.Bxc8 Qxc8 and 8.Bh5+ g6 9.Be2 Bg7 but they don't appear to offer white much, indeed in the former case I suspect that Black gets equality.

So the conclusion must be that 4.Nc4! is indeed far more critical than the 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2 which is merely +=.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #88 - 02/09/10 at 00:14:55
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/22/10 at 23:40:31:
AMM wrote on 01/22/10 at 19:37:58:
[quote author=16120F20212C2E2B2C222D31450 link=1262014233/81#81 date=1264170662]SWJedinight suggested 6..h5, perhaps White should not be tempted 7.Bxh5+ g6 and play so most natural 7.Nc3 Qg6 8.0-0 Nf6 9.f3

I think that was Craig Evans's suggestion.  I must admit as White I'd have been tempted by 7.Bxh5+ in that position, and then 7...g6 8.Bg4 should be better for White.  Alternatively 7.Nc3 as you say is probably even better.

Upon 6...Qd8, White can develop with 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Bg5 Be7 9.Ne3 with a space advantage and Black's pawn on e4 is a big problem.   Maybe White can also consider throwing in Bh5+, g6, Be2 in at some stage, weakening the black kingside at the cost of a tempo.  But admittedly White only has some advantage, rather than the possibility of a quick kill as per those 4.Nc4 lines.


After 6..Qd8; 9.Ne3 (Keres), White has only a small adventage; f.i 9..0-0:

- 10.Bc4+ Kh8 11.Bxf6 Rxf6 12.Nc3 ( VF Kozlov-Hayward, corr., 1990 ) 12..Nc6 =

- 10.Nd2 d5 11.c3 (11.c4 Ng4!) 11..c6 12.Qb3 ( Frederiksen-Benatar, corr. email, 2002 ) 12..a5!? Kosten,T

- 10.c4 (most played, White is targeting the e-pawn) 10..c6 ( far from forced says Kosten, another possibilities, maybe surest are 10..h6 or 10..c5!? 11.d5 Na6 ) 11.Nc3 (11.Qc2 Re8) 11..Nbd7 12.Qc2 Re8 played in several games but I don't like 13.Rad1 Qa5 - unique - 14.d5!

- 10.Nc3 Nbd7 11.f3 exf3 12.Bxf3 Nb6 13.Qd3 slight advantage
« Last Edit: 02/09/10 at 23:48:10 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #87 - 02/08/10 at 23:23:38
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AMM wrote on 01/13/10 at 00:53:03:
Conquistador wrote on 12/29/09 at 21:28:11:
In my investigations, I found that in the line:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 

Instead of 6.d3, 6.Nd5 seems better.

6.Nd5 Kd8 (6...Na6 7.d4 Qf7 8.Nce3 c6 9.Bxa6 cxd5 10.Be2) 7.d4 d6 8.Nf4 Qf7 9.d5



Now I see this line was analyzed by Italian Matteo Viola in 1991 and also played:

6.Nd5 Na6 (Bucker also pointed 6..Kd8) 7.d4 Qf7 8.Nce3 c6 9.Bxa6 cxd5 10.Be2 with slight advantage (ops Black's center!)---Borrmann-Svendsen, corr., 1992/94 and Morato-Di Tora, corr.email, 2006/07


Definitevely Conquistador can be right after 6.Nd5!? Na6 7.d4 Qf7 8.Nce3! c6 9.Bxa6 cxd5 10.Be2 Nf6 11.0-0 b6 ( what else? ) 12.f3 Bb7 13.fxe4 dxe4 14.Bc4 Qg6 15.a4 with a clear advantage, so 6..Kd8 seems "ackful" but is a bit better:

A) 7.Nf4 Qe8 8.d3 ( 8.Be2 g5 ) 8..exd3+ 9.Be3 dxc2 10.Qxc2 Nf6 ( David Zimbeck)
B) 7.d4 d6 8.Nf4 Qf7 ( 8..Qf5 9.Be2 ) 9.d5 ( Conquistador ) 9..Be7 10.Be2 g5!? unclear
C) 7.d3 exd3 8.Qxd3 Qxd3 9.Bxd3 Nf6 10.Bf4 Nf6 ( Stefan Bucker )
  
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Re: Bronstein's Variation
Reply #86 - 02/08/10 at 20:22:47
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/11/10 at 13:18:40:
Greco wrote on 01/10/10 at 13:59:44:

1. P-K4 P-K4 2. Kt-KB3 P-KB4!? 3. KtxP Q-B3 4. P-Q4 P-Q3 5. B-K2!

Greco

5.Be2 in that position would lose a piece, but I guess you're referring to the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2, which prevents the queen from settling on g6 and threatens disruptive checks on h5 in some lines.

I've looked at this line myself in the past and can't find anything convincing for Black.  This, of course, is in addition to the problems Black is facing after the immediate 4.Nc4.


Considerating by some sources 6.Be2 is one of the best White replies, I would suggest the following "Main line" ( also according some authors ): 6..Qd8 (Black has many problems with 6..Nc6 7.d5 Ne5 8.0-0 Nxc4 9.Bxc4 and threat Bb5+ has been terrible for Black, and personally I don't like previous mail reccomendation by Korch 6..Qf7 ) 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Bg5 Be7 9.f3 exf3 10.Bxf3 0-0 11.Nc3 ( 7..Nf6 8.f3 exf3 9.Bxf3 Be7 10.Nc3 0-0 11.Bg5 or 7..Be7 8.f3 exf3 9.Bxf3 Nf6 10.Nc3 0-0 11.Bg5 are both only traspositions ) and now instead known but "dubtious" 11..h6; 11..Nbd7 or 11..c6 I suggest new 11..Nc6 f.i.: 12.Qd3 Nd7!? 13.Bxe7 Nxe7 14.Rae1 Nf6 ( even 14..Kh8 ) and Black has adequate defensive resources, White has more space, but Black position is very solid and pawn structure identical
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #85 - 01/23/10 at 21:48:17
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Talking about 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2 - what`s wrong with 6...Qf7 ?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #84 - 01/23/10 at 17:57:09
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AMM wrote on 01/12/10 at 23:01:32:
Conquistador wrote on 12/30/09 at 04:41:35:


Ironically enough, I was looking at that exact variation as the only way I could find a solid advantage for white.

Personally, in this variation I would not put my light square bishop on e2 as it has no influence!  In this position white needs to control e4 and e5.  So white needs to play d4 and Bd3.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Be6 11.d4

Now for a sample line

11...Bb4 12.a3 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Nbd7 14.Bd3 and white looks strong and can focus their attack on the kingside or queenside depending on where black castles.

Now you mentioned in the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 as a possibility.  4.Bc4 looks pretty strong to me threatening Nf7 forcing more concessions.


I continue trying to improve the Black game in the considered "last option" for the second player.

Instead of 10..Be6 I suggest 10..Bc5 ( to avoid 11.d4 ); thus: 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4+ Qe6 13.Qh4 Be7 14.Qd4 Bf6 15.Qf4 Qe7!? and the White game is a bit uncomfortable, Queen is continuously pursued, we cannot try d4, and the pressure by the Black diagonal and in d3 square does not allow a proper development to the first player.

Then, perhaps 11.Be2 is better following with 11..0-0 12.0-0 Qe7 13.Qf4 Be6 14.d4 Bb6 15.Nc4 Nbd7as similar than other lines, always with pawn down, but totally playable.


I think that 11.Bc4 may be best.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Bc5 11.Bc4 Be6 12.Ne4 Bxc4 (12...Nxe4 13.Qxe4 loses a piece) 13.Nxc5 Qe7 14.Nxb7 0-0 15.Nd6 Be6 16.Ne4 looks pretty good for white two pawns up.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #83 - 01/22/10 at 23:40:31
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AMM wrote on 01/22/10 at 19:37:58:
[quote author=16120F20212C2E2B2C222D31450 link=1262014233/81#81 date=1264170662]SWJedinight suggested 6..h5, perhaps White should not be tempted 7.Bxh5+ g6 and play so most natural 7.Nc3 Qg6 8.0-0 Nf6 9.f3

I think that was Craig Evans's suggestion.  I must admit as White I'd have been tempted by 7.Bxh5+ in that position, and then 7...g6 8.Bg4 should be better for White.  Alternatively 7.Nc3 as you say is probably even better.

Upon 6...Qd8, White can develop with 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Bg5 Be7 9.Ne3 with a space advantage and Black's pawn on e4 is a big problem.   Maybe White can also consider throwing in Bh5+, g6, Be2 in at some stage, weakening the black kingside at the cost of a tempo.  But admittedly White only has some advantage, rather than the possibility of a quick kill as per those 4.Nc4 lines.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #82 - 01/22/10 at 19:37:58
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/22/10 at 14:31:02:
But the 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 Nc6 line relies upon White playing 4.d4 first instead of the immediate 4.Nc4.  Thus it's a possible way of avoiding the strong 5...fxe4 6.Be2, but not the 4.Nc4 lines.

If instead 4.Nc4 Nc6 then 5.e5 may be strong.


I think it's very doubtious to believe there are some compensation after 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 Nc6 6.d5 Ne5 7.Nc3 or 6.Nc3!? Qxd4 7.Bd3 and Be3; few games are known, but i don't like Black positions.

On the other hand, it has also suggested several times 6.Be2 as another difficult way for the Black game; perhaps the most appropriate is 6..Qd8 and I don't see a direct line where White can get advantage, but of course its advantage of space seem obvious.

Play directly 4..Nc6 after 4.Nc4 can allow 5.Nc3 fxe4 6.Nd5 etc.

As it has been said, if you want clearly refute any line this must be 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 ( see previous quotes ); and if you prefer 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2, analysis must begin with 6..Qd8. SWJedinight suggested 6..h5, perhaps White should not be tempted 7.Bxh5+ g6 and play so most natural 7.Nc3 Qg6 8.0-0 Nf6 9.f3
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #81 - 01/22/10 at 14:31:02
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But the 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 Nc6 line relies upon White playing 4.d4 first instead of the immediate 4.Nc4.  Thus it's a possible way of avoiding the strong 5...fxe4 6.Be2, but not the 4.Nc4 lines.

If instead 4.Nc4 Nc6 then 5.e5 may be strong.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #80 - 01/21/10 at 21:20:23
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You guys are so focused on the line 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 Nxe5 Qf6 4 Nc4 fxe4 etc., that you do not look for alternatives.

What about the related 1 e5 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 Nxe5 Qf6 4 d4 d6 5 Nc4 Nc6!?, the Cedar Knolls Gambit? My results in blitz and over-the-board have been encouraging. It certainly avoids the over-analyzed 4...fxe4 and steers the game into less-known waters.

By the way, Cedar Knolls is a small city in New Jersey. I grew up there, and my family still lives there.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #79 - 01/21/10 at 10:50:35
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Thank you for the responses! About the fact that the Latvian might be dead, it's not a real surprise to me since a Black gambit in open games are harder to justify than White's. But there is still offbeat openings that are wild and sounder than the Latvian to put our creativity and energy!
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #78 - 01/20/10 at 23:26:18
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ArKheiN wrote on 01/20/10 at 21:35:07:
Hello AMM,

I am just curious, in page 5 you say "3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bc5 10.b4! Bd6 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Re1+ Ne7 13.Nb5 Bxb4  
14.Rb1!"

While it might be true, I have never seen analysis of that move, I have seen your previous 14.Bd2. But is 14.Rb1 really superior to 14.Bd2? What is your latest toughts about 14.Bd2?

Thank you for sharing your nice ideas!


This first try on refuting Black play was already quoted by Jeremy Silman in his web http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_opng_anlys/040223_more_splat_the_lat.html and I myself wrote also here in a previous thread at http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1194567910/15, but there I already told ( in red colour ) the position after 14.Bd2 0-0 15.Bxb4 Nbc6 16.16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Nc7 Rb8 18.Qe2 Nc6 19.Nxd5 Bf5 20.Bc4 Kh8 21.Ne3 Be6 22.Rad1 Rbe8 is still far to be clear ( Melchor-Elburg, cr.email, 2008/10 and also according my Hiarcs11 ) and resembles another ones as "ancient" Main line 9..Bc5 10.Na4 Bd6 11.c4 Ne7 12.Nc3 0-0 13.cxd5 cxd5 etc. where White has a pawn up after capturing "d5", but Black maintain drawish possibilities in the resulting 3 vs. 2 on the kingside situation ( it was assumed even by own Silman ). In the ending of my game vs. Elburg, still in progress, I have not many possibilities of winning even with a pawn up. 

Thus 14.Rb1! ( Russian I.Terenin, nick "g2-g4" ) was suggested at http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1194567910/30 as strongest than 14.Bd2 and personally I'm allright with him.

Last word by Silman ( October 2009 ) at http://www.chess.com/article/view/splat-the-lat-not-quite, this is the summary: "14.Rb1! (Much stronger than 14.Nc7+ Kd8 15.Nxa8 Bxe1 16.Qxe1 Nbc6 when Black’s King will always be a source of discomfort, but White’s Knight is trapped and in many lines won’t get out alive. White’s chances are probably better, but it’s by no means clear how big that advantage will turn out to be ). 14…0-0 15.Rxb4 Qxf2+ 16.Kh1 Nbc6 17.Be3 Qf6 18.Rf4 and black is in a very bad way".

I think Latvian is finally ruined .... Black MUST FIND new ways ( see my last three quotes ), and so "Conquistador" will continue trying to destroy it !!  Cry

  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #77 - 01/20/10 at 22:44:52
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14.Bd2 0-0 15.Bxb4 Nbc6 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Nc7 Rb8 18.Qe2 Nc6 19.Nxd5 Bf5 (19...Bd7!?) 20.Bc4 (20.Bxf5 Qxf5 21.Rad1 and black has three replies that seem solid for the moment 21...Qf7; 21...Qg6; 21...Rbd8) 20...Kh8 21.Ne3 Be6 22.Rad1 Rbe8 and white only has a slight advantage.

14.Rb1 0-0 15.Rxb4 Qxf2+ 16.Kh1 is the only analysis I have seen to date on this variation, but it looks stronger than 14.Bd2.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #76 - 01/20/10 at 21:35:07
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Hello AMM,

I am just curious, in page 5 you say "3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bc5 10.b4! Bd6 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Re1+ Ne7 13.Nb5 Bxb4  
14.Rb1!"

While it might be true, I have never seen analysis of that move, I have seen your previous 14.Bd2. But is 14.Rb1 really superior to 14.Bd2? What is your latest toughts about 14.Bd2?

Thank you for sharing your nice ideas!
  
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Re: Bronstein's Variation
Reply #75 - 01/18/10 at 22:57:08
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/11/10 at 13:18:40:
Greco wrote on 01/10/10 at 13:59:44:

1. P-K4 P-K4 2. Kt-KB3 P-KB4!? 3. KtxP Q-B3 4. P-Q4 P-Q3 5. B-K2!

Greco

5.Be2 in that position would lose a piece, but I guess you're referring to the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2, which prevents the queen from settling on g6 and threatens disruptive checks on h5 in some lines.

I've looked at this line myself in the past and can't find anything convincing for Black.  This, of course, is in addition to the problems Black is facing after the immediate 4.Nc4.


Agreed - even though I have experience in the Latvian and have analysed this 4.Nc4 quite a bit, OTB I would plump for 6.Be2. I always feared that as black. I think black's best is 6...h5, and that is truly not sound. 
  

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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #74 - 01/13/10 at 00:53:03
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Conquistador wrote on 12/29/09 at 21:28:11:
In my investigations, I found that in the line:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 

Instead of 6.d3, 6.Nd5 seems better.

6.Nd5 Kd8 (6...Na6 7.d4 Qf7 8.Nce3 c6 9.Bxa6 cxd5 10.Be2) 7.d4 d6 8.Nf4 Qf7 9.d5



Now I see this line was analyzed by Italian Matteo Viola in 1991 and also played:

6.Nd5 Na6 (Bucker also pointed 6..Kd8) 7.d4 Qf7 8.Nce3 c6 9.Bxa6 cxd5 10.Be2 with slight advantage (ops Black's center!)---Borrmann-Svendsen, corr., 1992/94 and Morato-Di Tora, corr.email, 2006/07
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #73 - 01/13/10 at 00:30:24
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Stefan Bucker in http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss44.pdf  says after 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Ncxd5 c6 8.Nc3 (or 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3) 8..Nf6:

"With 9.f3 White tries to avoid weaknesses on the d-file. This approach seems more convincing than the examples with 9 d3 (...). 9 g3 also comes into consideration. – (...) there could follow:

(after 9.f3) 9...Bc5 (perhaps intending 10 fxe4 Bxe3!?, to blockade White’s two extra pawns on the square e5) 10 Be2! exf3 11 Bxf3 0-0 12 0-0 +/-, White is clearly better."


For 9.f3 see previous post

If 9.g3 Bc5 (again) 10.Bg2 0-0 11.0-0 Re8 (11..Qg6 12.Qe2 Be6 13.Ned1!) 12.b3 Na6 (or even 12..Bd4)

In terms of developmet the two sides are roughly equal, both are without weakness and in fact Black's compensation for the pawn is invisible, but White 'd2' pawn is problematic; Black has also more space and the position resembles anothers one with pawn down, but totally playable ( f.i. 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.Nxe4 d5 8.Ng5 Qf6 9.Nf3 Bd6 etc. with long positional manoeuvres )

  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #72 - 01/12/10 at 23:01:32
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Conquistador wrote on 12/30/09 at 04:41:35:


Ironically enough, I was looking at that exact variation as the only way I could find a solid advantage for white.

Personally, in this variation I would not put my light square bishop on e2 as it has no influence!  In this position white needs to control e4 and e5.  So white needs to play d4 and Bd3.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Be6 11.d4

Now for a sample line

11...Bb4 12.a3 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Nbd7 14.Bd3 and white looks strong and can focus their attack on the kingside or queenside depending on where black castles.

Now you mentioned in the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 as a possibility.  4.Bc4 looks pretty strong to me threatening Nf7 forcing more concessions.


I continue trying to improve the Black game in the considered "last option" for the second player.

Instead of 10..Be6 I suggest 10..Bc5 ( to avoid 11.d4 ); thus: 11.Ne4 Nxe4 12.Qxe4+ Qe6 13.Qh4 Be7 14.Qd4 Bf6 15.Qf4 Qe7!? and the White game is a bit uncomfortable, Queen is continuously pursued, we cannot try d4, and the pressure by the Black diagonal and in d3 square does not allow a proper development to the first player.

Then, perhaps 11.Be2 is better following with 11..0-0 12.0-0 Qe7 13.Qf4 Be6 14.d4 Bb6 15.Nc4 Nbd7as similar than other lines, always with pawn down, but totally playable.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #71 - 01/11/10 at 14:16:58
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Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:40:54:
Here is the breakdown for 3...Nf6

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 (6...Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 [7...Nxe4 8.Nc3!] 8.exf5 Qxf5 9.Nc3 Kh8 10.Bd3 Qh5 11.Qxh5 Nxh5 12.Bg5+ Be7 13.Bxe7+ Kxe7 14.Rfe1+ Kd8 15.Nd5 g6 16.g4 Ng7 17.Re3 c6 18.Nf6 Ne6 19.Rf1 h5 20.g5 Nxg5 21.f4 Nf7 22.Rfe1 Nd6 23.Rg3 h4 24.Rxg6 b5 25.Ng4 Ne8 26.Ne5 Rf8 27.Rh6 Bb7 28.Rxh4 Nf6 29.Ng6 Rg8 30.f5 Kc7 31.Re7 and black is in trouble in the endgame, I think this game shows the problems black faces) 7.Ng4! and black is in trouble.

The given line in bold print (until 31.Re7, plus a few more moves) was my analysis in the ChessCafe article. 
I wrote: 
Quote:
White has an extra pawn, and two of his pawns are passed pawns. Maybe the simplest continuation is 31 Re7 (31 Kf2 Rg7) 31…Raf8 32 Kf2 Kd6 33 Nxf8 Kxe7 34 Ng6+ Kf7 35 Kg3 Kg7 36 Ne5 with an eventual Ng4 to break Black’s blockade on the black squares, or 35…a6 36 Rh8. White has good winning chances.

But does it win by force? I don't think so. And Black has alternatives, like 15...c6, which goes into a rook ending with five vs six pawns.
  
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Re: Bronstein's Variation
Reply #70 - 01/11/10 at 13:18:40
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Greco wrote on 01/10/10 at 13:59:44:

1. P-K4 P-K4 2. Kt-KB3 P-KB4!? 3. KtxP Q-B3 4. P-Q4 P-Q3 5. B-K2!

Greco

5.Be2 in that position would lose a piece, but I guess you're referring to the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2, which prevents the queen from settling on g6 and threatens disruptive checks on h5 in some lines.

I've looked at this line myself in the past and can't find anything convincing for Black.  This, of course, is in addition to the problems Black is facing after the immediate 4.Nc4.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #69 - 01/11/10 at 00:16:43
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AMM wrote on 01/10/10 at 18:37:42:
  What paradoxical !. Since 70 years ago is being analyzed the gambit, and finally we have seen some of the lines for its refutation are oldest ones.

  Summarizing, some of the main lines which give advantage to the first player are:

3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 7.Ng4!

3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Nxg6 Nf6 6.Qh4 Rg8 7.Nxf8 Rg4 8.Qh6 Rxe4+ 9.Be2 Qe7 10.Nxh7 Rxe2+ 11.Kd1 Ng4 12.Qg6+ Kd8 13.Qg8+ 
 Qe8 14.Qxe8+ Rxe8 15.Rf1 Rh8 16.h3 Rxh7 17.hxg4 fxg4 18.d3

3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Nxg6 Nf6 6.Qh4 hxg6 7.Qxh8 Qe7 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.d3 Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.Bg5 Kf7 12.Nd5 Bg7 13.Qxg7+ 
 Kxg7 14.Nxe7
 
3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 6.Nd5!

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 Be6 8.Bc6 Na6 9.Bxa6 bxa6 10.Ne3 Nf6 11.f4

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bc5 10.b4! Bd6 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Re1+ Ne7 13.Nb5 Bxb4  
 14.Rb1!

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 Be7 8.Nxe4 Nf6 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.Bd3

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9.Ne3! and 10.Bd3

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Nc6 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3!


Latvian have died (R.I.P.).
Any forum about is already neccesary !?


As I have pointed out - I` believe in Black position after 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 Be6 8.Bc6 Na6 9.Bxa6 bxa6 10.Ne3 Nf6 11.f4 (see my analysis in this thread)

Also I`m sure that Black can figure out something against 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3
In fact all we need is to repair 7.f3 line.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #68 - 01/10/10 at 18:37:42
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  What paradoxical !. Since 70 years ago is being analyzed the gambit, and finally we have seen some of the lines for its refutation are oldest ones.

  Summarizing, some of the main lines which give advantage to the first player are:

3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 7.Ng4!

3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Nxg6 Nf6 6.Qh4 Rg8 7.Nxf8 Rg4 8.Qh6 Rxe4+ 9.Be2 Qe7 10.Nxh7 Rxe2+ 11.Kd1 Ng4 12.Qg6+ Kd8 13.Qg8+ 
 Qe8 14.Qxe8+ Rxe8 15.Rf1 Rh8 16.h3 Rxh7 17.hxg4 fxg4 18.d3

3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Nxg6 Nf6 6.Qh4 hxg6 7.Qxh8 Qe7 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.d3 Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.Bg5 Kf7 12.Nd5 Bg7 13.Qxg7+ 
 Kxg7 14.Nxe7
 
3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 6.Nd5!

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 Be6 8.Bc6 Na6 9.Bxa6 bxa6 10.Ne3 Nf6 11.f4

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 c6 7.d3 exd3 8.Bxd3 d5 9.0-0 Bc5 10.b4! Bd6 11.Nexd5 cxd5 12.Re1+ Ne7 13.Nb5 Bxb4  
 14.Rb1!

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 Be7 8.Nxe4 Nf6 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.Bd3

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9.Ne3! and 10.Bd3

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Nc6 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3!


Latvian have died (R.I.P.).
Any forum about is already neccesary !?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #67 - 01/10/10 at 14:39:45
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Fortunately I am a theoretician and don't need to apologize for studying the Latvian Gambit. "Practical players" can just stay away from this thread and hope to find the moves over the board. The latter seems to be a common approach. Lately a GM told me in a postmortem that he had never studied 2...f5: "It is too rare." He would have chosen either 3.d3 or 3.Nc3, "to get a slightly better position."

AMM wrote on 01/02/10 at 04:49:10:

[1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6] 6.0-0 fxe4 7.Ng4 ( you know, Bucker, http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss46.pdf ) 7..Nxg4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 (N) 9.Re1 d5 10.Qh5+ Qf7 11.Rxe4+ Be6 12.Qxd5 Td8 etc. with a nice Black counterplay; perhaps better 11.Qxd5 Qxd5 12.Bxd5 Bf5! 13.Bxe4 0-0-0 14.Bxf5+ Nxf5 15.Bg5 Be7 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Nc3 Nc6 I'm not especially worried on this "semi-ending"

In my article I mentioned only 8...Nb4 (and 8...d6) 9 d5 Qe5 (9...Nxc2? 10 d6! +- is devastating) etc. Comparing my analyses of 8...Nxd4 (I finally thought that 8...Nb4 was the better chance) with the analysis by AMM above: 9 Re1 d5 10 Qh5+ Qf7 11 Qxd5 Qxd5 12 Bxd5. Here I had mainly investigated 12...Nxc2 (instead of 12...Bf5) 13 Rxe4+ Be6!? with amusing lines like 14 Rxe6+ Kd7 15 Be4 Nxa1 16 Bf5 g6 17 Bh3 Bc5 18 b4 Rhe8 19 Rxe8+ Kxe8 20 bxc5 Rd8 21 Nc3 Rd3 (Nc2) 22 Bb2 Rd2 23 Bxa1 Rc2 24 Kf1 Rc1+ 25 Ke2 Rxa1 26 Be6 and White has winning chances. Obviously Black is worse, and 14 Bxe6 is also strong. The charm of 12...Nxc2 is that some of the resulting endings are close to theoretical draws, but at the end I found it all too vague to publish. Regarding the alternative 12...Bf5 (AMM) - yes, it's playable, but then you could rather try 7...d5 (instead of 7...Nxg4), when after 8 Nxf6+ Qxf6 9 Bxd5 Bf5 10 Be3 Ne7!? 11 Bb3 or 10...0-0-0 11 Nc3 Black is also "only" a pawn behind. Here you have still some pieces on the board to create some complications. 

I still have sympathy for 3...Nf6. Against a normal GM it remains a good choice. The books recommend 4 exf5, which certainly looks "simpler" than 4 Bc4. Any decent lazy GM would probably smell a rat behind Bc4 and choose the former. However, I admit that I cannot give a solution for 4 Bc4, and it is also difficult to be sure whether the GM which you are facing is one of the rarer "reading" type. OTB the gambit should be OK (after all, who sees [6...fxe4] 7 Ng4! over the board?), but in corr. chess it's a problem.
  
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Bronstein's Variation
Reply #66 - 01/10/10 at 13:59:44
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I've seen all these lines, and to be honest, I think it's a bit crazy for anyone to reasonably assume that both

1. A White player will know this encyclopaedically off the top of his head!

or

2. Black will not be able to innovate ANY novelties to throw him off track

Of course, if both these two propositions fail, then White is likely to win--but Black IS expected to lose more than he wins, anyways... and in my experience with the Latvian, the open positions lead to few draws, so when Black fights hard, he CAN win... we all know several greats in chess who have lost to the Latvian. I do understand, of course, that recently it's been a fight to prove equality for Black, or achieve a draw in an endgame, but if you like or are more comfortable with these positions as Black, it shouldn't be MUCH worse than in most openings... just my two cents though.

More to the point, though:

All these new lines for Black don't mean much if one of the old lines is still so fun to play as White! For instance:

1. P-K4 P-K4 2. Kt-KB3 P-KB4!? 3. KtxP Q-B3 4. P-Q4 P-Q3 5. B-K2!

As suggested by Bronstein. Kosten even states that Black has yet to find an adequate response! So... maybe earlier, 4. ...Kt-QB3!? is necessary (it's what I'd play, anyways!)

And paradoxically, salvation may come from the Fraser Defence! LOL

Greco
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #65 - 01/07/10 at 21:38:31
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As a thought experiment, try and replace "Latvian" by "BDG" and
"Two Knights" by "Anti Moscow" or "Saemisch" in your last sentence.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #64 - 01/07/10 at 16:47:46
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The starting position in chess is somewhere between = and +=.  For argument's sake let's assume it's += so that we get one category difference between the two colours.  By that measure, an =+ opening for White would be as bad as a +/- opening for Black.

I have a lot less confidence in Black's chances of getting a += (as opposed to +/-) in the Latvian than in White's chances of getting equality with best play in the Blackmar-Diemer.  

Therefore, I think the Latvian is less sound than the BDG, and it also doesn't score as well (though it can still be effective at low levels/fast time limits).  I can understand why people like to play the Latvian, but you're just as likely to get open, tactical gambit play with a Schilemann or Two Knights, both of which are much sounder (the former is probably += and the latter may even be =).
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #63 - 01/06/10 at 00:36:40
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You have to compare what's comparable: the BDG is a white opening, the LG black.
White must play really bad to be worse, while Black is right from the start.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #62 - 01/05/10 at 23:27:08
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But in my head, Latvian can give a real advantage to White, while I believe the BDG can't get worse than equality (ok to be honest there might be somes lines where I am not so happy and not really sure to equalize but that can't arrive against weaker opponents OTB) where my knowledge and skill will make the difference easily. The real surprise for me is that a top corr player of today could not beat the Latvian gambit, and in case of defeat I would be almost shocked!
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #61 - 01/05/10 at 23:10:54
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Arguments like "you could beat the sames opponents with far less risks of having not so good positions" can be used against any sharp and unorthodoux opening, including your favorite. Smiley
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #60 - 01/05/10 at 22:24:23
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I must agree that I don't know the results of the Latvian in corr. But the result of the BDG in corr. is clearly good (maybe better score than the Latvian but ok we can't compare theses openings like this). With your level you could beat the sames opponents with far less risks of having not so good positions, but well, I have been critized a lot with my own opening Smiley
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #59 - 01/05/10 at 21:36:30
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ArKheiN wrote on 01/05/10 at 20:22:34:
I think the BDG may be playable as a main weapon from beginner to something like 2500 (but in every cases, more effective as a surprise) while I think for the Latvian it should be playable from beginner to 2300 (still as a surprise)The less a system is sound, the less it is playable OTB when you get higher in rated opposition.


I don`t think that BDG is more sound than LG. If Latvian is so bad - how would you explain the fact that it gives good results in CC chess?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #58 - 01/05/10 at 21:30:18
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ArKheiN wrote on 01/05/10 at 20:22:34:
But what is your rating and your opposition?


My current ELO is 2206 and in serious OTB games use LG usually against weaker opposition. But in online blitz (which is less serious, of course) where I use it quite often (usually getting very playable positions), I have won also higher rated and titled players Smiley
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #57 - 01/05/10 at 20:22:34
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But what is your rating and your opposition?

OTB in tournament time I always had promising positions and almost won against a GM with it (I was winning but I began to play bad and I lost). I think the BDG may be playable as a main weapon from beginner to something like 2500 (but in every cases, more effective as a surprise) while I think for the Latvian it should be playable from beginner to 2300 (still as a surprise)The less a system is sound, the less it is playable OTB when you get higher in rated opposition.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #56 - 01/05/10 at 18:02:12
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ArKheiN When I use Latvian in OTB most of my opponent`s lack knowledge to get such a good positions for White. Even some Latvian experts (playing in Latvian thematic tournaments in CC) are not always able to create serious problems for Black.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #55 - 01/05/10 at 09:14:58
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I like gambits in general but I really don't understand why players likes the Latvian gambit when the main lines gives all sort of problems to Black quickly. I always said that the Latvian gambit is for masochists (I will make people smiling because I am an advocate of the BDG and Schliemann) trying in the end to survive with a pawn down where we can read from the Latvian theoricians of the forum something like"Black have some chances to have a draw", "Black have a quite difficult position but might survive" "the position is not so bad" etc etc. I totally understand the pleasure of getting wild positions, but not the pleasure of fighting for a draw after the small and avoided storm, for example the line with 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 6. d3 Bb4 7.dxe4 where in the zimberbeck web site I can read "with some chances to draw in an opposite colored bishop game" which is still not an opposite bishop ending (but the draw is not impossible indeed). If I could choose to play that ending "chances to draw with Black" in 20 games, I would play White because the fun and the chance for victory would be in my side, fun for the Black side is what I call masochism here.

Even something like the Riga variation of the Spanish is more fun to me: it has a bad reputation as well, not very well known, can be very wild, and the "inferiors endings" are still quite fun to play. But even here I would say that someone who would always play the Riga is slightly masochist.

Markovitch might tell me that in my Schliemann I can get a masochist ending as well and I agree with him but strangely, that good line for White is still very underground officially and I get it as Black only about 10% but I would probably not continue to play the Schliemann if I got it 50% of the time.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #54 - 01/04/10 at 18:54:56
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AMM wrote on 01/04/10 at 00:48:34:
Korch

In the above line after 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 if this last move is not laudable, why not 4..Nc6 ?.


Because of 5.Nc3 and after 5...Nxe5 6.Nd5 White should win.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #53 - 01/04/10 at 00:48:34
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Korch

In the above line after 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 if this last move is not laudable, why not 4..Nc6 ?.

In the line 7.Ng4 Nxg4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 etc., I told 13...0-0-0 etc. is a bit better. What does it matter if Black has a pawn down ?, anyway is usual in other many LG lines. For instance I would get ready to fight a Rook ending in CC game with this variation ( of course, with Nalimov Tablebases !! ).

If not, Latvian gambit is "refuted" and so, not recccomendable; there many Main lines wherever White get advantage in the opening. Fortunately any player look Rybka&friends in an OTB game, moreover we have -2300 ELO FIDE and we can play the middle game and maybe even win ! ( as in the rest of openings ).

So LG is already playable in OTB ..., clearly NOT in any "writting" forum !?   
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #52 - 01/03/10 at 15:30:23
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AMM wrote on 01/02/10 at 04:49:10:
Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:40:54:
Here is the breakdown for 3...Nf6

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 (6...Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 [7...Nxe4 8.Nc3!] 8.exf5 Qxf5 9.Nc3 Kh8 10.Bd3 Qh5 11.Qxh5 Nxh5 12.Bg5+ Be7 13.Bxe7+ Kxe7 14.Rfe1+ Kd8 15.Nd5 g6 16.g4 Ng7 17.Re3 c6 18.Nf6 Ne6 19.Rf1 h5 20.g5 Nxg5 21.f4 Nf7 22.Rfe1 Nd6 23.Rg3 h4 24.Rxg6 b5 25.Ng4 Ne8 26.Ne5 Rf8 27.Rh6 Bb7 28.Rxh4 Nf6 29.Ng6 Rg8 30.f5 Kc7 31.Re7 and black is in trouble in the endgame, I think this game shows the problems black faces) 7.Ng4! and black is in trouble.


Conquistador:

What's about? 6.0-0 fxe4 7.Ng4 ( you know, Bucker, http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss46.pdf ) 7..Nxg4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 (N) 9.Re1 d5 10.Qh5+ Qf7 11.Rxe4+ Be6 12.Qxd5 Td8 etc. with a nice Black counterplay; perhaps better 11.Qxd5 Qxd5 12.Bxd5 Bf5! 13.Bxe4 0-0-0 14.Bxf5+ Nxf5 15.Bg5 Be7 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Nc3 Nc6 I'm not especially worried on this "semi-ending"


Unfortunately in my opinion White has extra pawn without compensation for Black after

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Nf6 4. Bc4 Qe7 5. d4 Nc6 6. O-O fxe4 7. Ng4 Nxg4 8. Qxg4 Nxd4 9. Re1 d5 10. Qh5+ Qf7 11. Qxd5 Qxd5 12. Bxd5 Bf5 13. Bxe4 Kf7 14. Bxf5 Nxf5 15. c3! (15.Bg5 Nd4!) Sad

Please somebody find something for Black after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Nf6 4. Bc4 Qe7 5. d4 Nc6 6. O-O fxe4 7. Ng4 or 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 .......
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #51 - 01/02/10 at 19:11:35
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Korch wrote on 01/02/10 at 16:36:12:
AMM
The thing I really dislike in 3...Nf6 is simple 4.exf5.  Suggestions of theory in this line?


I think option 3..Nf6 4.exf5 is quite well analyzed in the article of Bücker at http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss45.pdf and White even with a pawn down has great posibilities on drawing in the ending, better when disappears the danger exchanging Queens so quickly.

The move 4.Bc4 creates more problems for the second player, although, as we have seen, it must play the accurate moves every instant. Even I have read in some places true refutation are 3.d4 or 3.Nc3  !!

We have to finish the debate on Latvian, ... we bored many readers who don't know more current Theory. I still believe is playable, but of course Black faces great problems at the Main variations.

People ONLY have success with it because of opponent unfamiliarity; players who adopt it tend to specialise in it so one advantage they have is that they are well-versed in an opening that white may not know quite so well

I think it still matters in correspondence because you can look up the book moves in a database but you won't really have a feel for the positions you are likely to face in OTB. A seasoned Latvian Gambit campaigner will find themselves in positions in which they feel comfortable.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #50 - 01/02/10 at 16:36:12
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AMM
The thing I really dislike in 3...Nf6 is simple 4.exf5.  Suggestions of theory in this line?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #49 - 01/02/10 at 13:59:28
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Korch wrote on 01/02/10 at 09:24:37:
AMM wrote on 01/02/10 at 03:39:29:
Korch:

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Qg4 9.Qf2 Nf6 10.Be2 Qg6 11.Nb5!? as you points or better 11.Ne3!.

Thus 7..Be7 in the Krantz's spirit 8.fxe4 Nh6! (and 8..Ng4) of 7..Nf6 8.fxe4 Be7 (9..Ng4!) without the problems on 9.e5; but as you know I have some problems after:

a) 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ etc ( Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07 and Özoguz-Indricans, email ICCF webserver, 2007 ). Maybe 8..Nf6!? preparing quick castle is best; after 9.Bc4 exf3 10.Qxf3 Nc6 11.Nb5 Kd8 12.Bd3 Qf7 (12..Qe8!?) 13.c3 the position is exactly the same (!) than 7..exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9. Ne3 Nc6 10.Nb5 Kd8 11.Bd3 Qf7 12.c3 but with an extra and useful tempo in Black's game!; White has any relevant adventage. Perhaps 9.Be2 is more precise.

b) 8.Nxe4! seems best. I don't know how improve Black's play f.i. after 8..Nf6 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.c3 with a Black pawn down in a simple position, and 8..Nh6?! of Ardila-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema sf., 2008 idea is irrelevant here, so White's pawn on f3 abort any ..Ng4 counterplay


On 8.Nxe4 probably the best for Black is 8...d5 9.Ne5 Qb6 (making pressure on d4 and b2) 10.Nc3 (10.Ng5 Nc6 11.Ngf7 Nxe5 12.Nxh8 Nc4 seems to be not so bad for Black) Nf6 with reasonable play for Black. Look at the game (Ricard, JL. Deneuville, C.,cr VI World Ch. sf. A e-mail 2008 (1-0)) - despite of result it seems to me that Black had playable position.

After 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ Kd8 11.Bd2 (Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07) Qh4+ 12.Qxh4 Bxh4+ 13.g3 Bf6 Black seems to be OK.




Korch, I agree with you in 8.Ne3 exf3 ( or 8..Nf6 9.Bc4 exf3 10.Qxf3 Nc6 11.Nb5 Kd8 ) 9.Qxf3 etc., but whats about? 8.Nxe4 d5 9.Ne5 Qb6 10.Nc3 Nf6 ( Ricard, JL. Deneuville, C.,cr VI World Ch. sf. A e-mail 2008 ) 11.Be2 c5 12.dxc5 Qxc5 13.Bf4 d4 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.fxe4 etc.

As I told, perhaps 3..Nf6 and the line pointed above with 8..Nxd4 is possible; anyway 3.Nxe5 Qf6 and now 4.d4 or 4.Nc4 has some "holes" as Black !?  
« Last Edit: 01/02/10 at 16:44:23 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #48 - 01/02/10 at 09:24:37
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AMM wrote on 01/02/10 at 03:39:29:
Korch:

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Qg4 9.Qf2 Nf6 10.Be2 Qg6 11.Nb5!? as you points or better 11.Ne3!.

Thus 7..Be7 in the Krantz's spirit 8.fxe4 Nh6! (and 8..Ng4) of 7..Nf6 8.fxe4 Be7 (9..Ng4!) without the problems on 9.e5; but as you know I have some problems after:

a) 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ etc ( Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07 and Özoguz-Indricans, email ICCF webserver, 2007 ). Maybe 8..Nf6!? preparing quick castle is best; after 9.Bc4 exf3 10.Qxf3 Nc6 11.Nb5 Kd8 12.Bd3 Qf7 (12..Qe8!?) 13.c3 the position is exactly the same (!) than 7..exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9. Ne3 Nc6 10.Nb5 Kd8 11.Bd3 Qf7 12.c3 but with an extra and useful tempo in Black's game!; White has any relevant adventage. Perhaps 9.Be2 is more precise.

b) 8.Nxe4! seems best. I don't know how improve Black's play f.i. after 8..Nf6 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.c3 with a Black pawn down in a simple position, and 8..Nh6?! of Ardila-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema sf., 2008 idea is irrelevant here, so White's pawn on f3 abort any ..Ng4 counterplay


On 8.Nxe4 probably the best for Black is 8...d5 9.Ne5 Qb6 (making pressure on d4 and b2) 10.Nc3 (10.Ng5 Nc6 11.Ngf7 Nxe5 12.Nxh8 Nc4 seems to be not so bad for Black) Nf6 with reasonable play for Black. Look at the game (Ricard, JL. Deneuville, C.,cr VI World Ch. sf. A e-mail 2008 (1-0)) - despite of result it seems to me that Black had playable position.

After 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ Kd8 11.Bd2 (Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07) Qh4+ 12.Qxh4 Bxh4+ 13.g3 Bf6 Black seems to be OK.







  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #47 - 01/02/10 at 04:49:10
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Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:40:54:
Here is the breakdown for 3...Nf6

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 (6...Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 [7...Nxe4 8.Nc3!] 8.exf5 Qxf5 9.Nc3 Kh8 10.Bd3 Qh5 11.Qxh5 Nxh5 12.Bg5+ Be7 13.Bxe7+ Kxe7 14.Rfe1+ Kd8 15.Nd5 g6 16.g4 Ng7 17.Re3 c6 18.Nf6 Ne6 19.Rf1 h5 20.g5 Nxg5 21.f4 Nf7 22.Rfe1 Nd6 23.Rg3 h4 24.Rxg6 b5 25.Ng4 Ne8 26.Ne5 Rf8 27.Rh6 Bb7 28.Rxh4 Nf6 29.Ng6 Rg8 30.f5 Kc7 31.Re7 and black is in trouble in the endgame, I think this game shows the problems black faces) 7.Ng4! and black is in trouble.


Conquistador:

What's about? 6.0-0 fxe4 7.Ng4 ( you know, Bucker, http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss46.pdf ) 7..Nxg4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 (N) 9.Re1 d5 10.Qh5+ Qf7 11.Rxe4+ Be6 12.Qxd5 Td8 etc. with a nice Black counterplay; perhaps better 11.Qxd5 Qxd5 12.Bxd5 Bf5! 13.Bxe4 0-0-0 14.Bxf5+ Nxf5 15.Bg5 Be7 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Nc3 Nc6 I'm not especially worried on this "semi-ending"
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #46 - 01/02/10 at 03:39:29
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Korch:

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Qg4 9.Qf2 Nf6 10.Be2 Qg6 11.Nb5!? as you points or better 11.Ne3!.

Thus 7..Be7 in the Krantz's spirit 8.fxe4 Nh6! (and 8..Ng4) of 7..Nf6 8.fxe4 Be7 (9..Ng4!) without the problems on 9.e5; but as you know I have some problems after:

a) 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ etc ( Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07 and Özoguz-Indricans, email ICCF webserver, 2007 ). Maybe 8..Nf6!? preparing quick castle is best; after 9.Bc4 exf3 10.Qxf3 Nc6 11.Nb5 Kd8 12.Bd3 Qf7 (12..Qe8!?) 13.c3 the position is exactly the same (!) than 7..exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9. Ne3 Nc6 10.Nb5 Kd8 11.Bd3 Qf7 12.c3 but with an extra and useful tempo in Black's game!; White has any relevant adventage. Perhaps 9.Be2 is more precise.

b) 8.Nxe4! seems best. I don't know how improve Black's play f.i. after 8..Nf6 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.c3 with a Black pawn down in a simple position, and 8..Nh6?! of Ardila-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema sf., 2008 idea is irrelevant here, so White's pawn on f3 abort any ..Ng4 counterplay
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #45 - 01/02/10 at 01:21:18
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 15:18:43:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:52:04:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:45:37:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:32:42:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:26:55:
Korch,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? 7.Nexd5 Be6 (instead "Conquistador" 7..c6) and now Bucker points after 8.Bc4 Na6 9.b3!? "it might be difficult for Black to achieve full compensation" ...

After 9...Bc5 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd4 12.Ne3 Nc5 Black`s position seems to be not so bad.


11.Ne3 Bxc4 12.bxc4!? is not a bit risky with "b" open file? ...

After 12...Nf6 I don`t think that White pieces are too well placed to exploit it.



12..Nf6 is impossible, so the Queen is on "f6", so perhaps 12..Qg6 13.Rb1 (or 13.Bb2) then -both- 13..Nf6 etc.


                    And what's about Classical Main line with 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3  ?. In this key position:


                    1a) 8..Nc6 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3! threating on "c7" was already pointed by Kosten. In his book there are some games with 10..Rc8, 10..0-0-0 and 10..Kd8 all dubtious for Black, but I remember strong CC player Peter Leisebein suggested 10..d5!?; now "natural" 11.Nxc7+?! Kd7 etc. had success as Black in three games, but finally was refuted in a good way in Melchor-Zielinski, corr.,LADAC thema (sf.), 2008/09 with 11.Bd3! etc. 
 
                    1b) 8..Nf6 has been totally discredited by 9.Ne3! ( instead less clear and more known 9.Bd3 ) in later games. White decides to make "g4" unavailable for exchange the Queens, and Black play is totally passive. There are many games with this moves sequence
 
                    1c) 8..Qg4!? is less known and played, buy It was reccomended by myself. Kosten only analyzes 9.Qf2 ( I don't think exchanging Queens is good for White ) 9..Nf6 10.Be2 and now instead of Kosten's 10..Qe6?! I suggest 10..Qg6!?; In this order, THERE ARE NOT ANY GAME still played ( only traspositions, so they are very important ! ). Some examples:
 
                     11.Bd3 Qh5 12.0-0 Be7 (or 12..Nc6) 

                   *13.Ne2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Nf4 Qe8 (15..Qf7) = Fleischmann-Cano, corr., 1970 by trasposition

                   *13.Be3 0-0 14.h3 (14.Qg3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7=) 14..Nc6 15.Qg3 Be6 = Gaard-Müller, corr., 1988/89 by trasposition 

                   *13.Bf4 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 16.Ne3 White has more space, but Black is solid (Kosten)-- Bergsma-Wijnands, Rotterdam, 1939 by trasposition 1/2-1/2 in 60 moves)

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Qe3 Bd7 16.Rae1 Rae8 17.Ne2 1/2-1/2 Hewitt-Thornton, 1998, also by trasposition.

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 followed by ..Rae8 = Knostenbergs-Melchor, corr., 2001/02 (1/2-1/2 in 31 moves)

                    White can try15.Ne3 or Qg3, but they may be met by15..d5.

                    So perhaps White has to try for an improvement earlier. Ideas?, maybe 13.Nb5!?; 11.Ne3!?


                    Last times many players - as I myself - have tested 7..Be7!? to re-evaluate whole variation. Although we have got nice positions after 8.fxe4 Nh6! - or 8..Nc6 and 9..Nh6 -, I'm not sure about it if White plays 8.Nxe4 or 8.Ne3!?


You know - position after 7...exf3 8.Qxf3 Qg4 9.Qf2 Nf6 10. Be2 Qg6 11.Nb5!? Na6 12.0-0 Be7 13.Bd3 Qh5 14.Qe1 seems really bad for black.

Maybe it`s worth to check out 7...Be7 line. As I understand after 8.fxe4 Nh6 Black is OK? Then on  8.Ne3 maybe Black can try 8...exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6!? Only don`t know what to play on 8.Nxe4.... Your thoughts?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #44 - 01/01/10 at 21:48:02
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Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:42:28:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:24:16:
Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:14:46:
What about 13.b4!? intending to blast open the queenside with b5?  This looks devastating with Rb1 and the queen can rejoin the attack.

13.b4 was the first move I looked in that position. After 13...Qf7 14.0-0 h5 15.f5 (15.Rb1 h4) Bf7 16.Rb1 h4 17.h3 (allowing h3 seems to to be the best idea) Bh5 18.Qe1 Bd6 19.Nc4 Bg3 20. Qe3 Qd4 21.Na5+ Ka8 22.Qxd4 Rxd4 Black should have a good compensation for pawn.

Wait a minute, isn't the queen already on f7 so 13...Qf7 is not possible?

I did mean 13....Qd7
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #43 - 01/01/10 at 21:42:28
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:24:16:
Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:14:46:
What about 13.b4!? intending to blast open the queenside with b5?  This looks devastating with Rb1 and the queen can rejoin the attack.

13.b4 was the first move I looked in that position. After 13...Qf7 14.0-0 h5 15.f5 (15.Rb1 h4) Bf7 16.Rb1 h4 17.h3 (allowing h3 seems to to be the best idea) Bh5 18.Qe1 Bd6 19.Nc4 Bg3 20. Qe3 Qd4 21.Na5+ Ka8 22.Qxd4 Rxd4 Black should have a good compensation for pawn.

Wait a minute, isn't the queen already on f7 so 13...Qf7 is not possible?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #42 - 01/01/10 at 21:42:08
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:18:26:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 20:47:18:
On 13.b3 Black probably should play 13...Bd6 (making white to castle king side) 14.0-0 h5 (planning to weaken king side with h4-h3) 15.f5 (getting more space and making black bishop more passive) Bc8 16.Nc4 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rhe8 I think that this position could be playable for Black as it`s not so easy to find active plan for White while Black has plan to move  h-pawn up to h3 with Kb8(a8) Bb7 to follow.




Hmm, all very suspicious. You know, Rybka3, I don't like ending after 15.Nc4 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Bg4 17.Na5+ Kb6 18.Qc4 Qxc4 19.Nxc4+ Kb7 20.h3 and Na5+, many isolated Black pawns, especially in CC.

I think I will turn back to 3..Nf6


In my opinion after 15.Nc4 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Bg4 17.Na5+ Kb6 18.Qc4 Qxc4 19.Nxc4+ Kb7 20.h3 Be6 21.Na5+ Kc8 22.Nc6 Rd6 23.Ne5 h4! (making weak squares on White king side pawn structure & planning to move Rook on h5 after 24.Ng6) Black has good compensation for pawn - 2 bishops + better development and more active pieces.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #41 - 01/01/10 at 21:40:54
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Here is the breakdown for 3...Nf6

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 (6...Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 [7...Nxe4 8.Nc3!] 8.exf5 Qxf5 9.Nc3 Kh8 10.Bd3 Qh5 11.Qxh5 Nxh5 12.Bg5+ Be7 13.Bxe7+ Kxe7 14.Rfe1+ Kd8 15.Nd5 g6 16.g4 Ng7 17.Re3 c6 18.Nf6 Ne6 19.Rf1 h5 20.g5 Nxg5 21.f4 Nf7 22.Rfe1 Nd6 23.Rg3 h4 24.Rxg6 b5 25.Ng4 Ne8 26.Ne5 Rf8 27.Rh6 Bb7 28.Rxh4 Nf6 29.Ng6 Rg8 30.f5 Kc7 31.Re7 and black is in trouble in the endgame, I think this game shows the problems black faces) 7.Ng4! and black is in trouble.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #40 - 01/01/10 at 21:24:16
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Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:14:46:
What about 13.b4!? intending to blast open the queenside with b5?  This looks devastating with Rb1 and the queen can rejoin the attack.

13.b4 was the first move I looked in that position. After 13...Qd7 14.0-0 h5 15.f5 (15.Rb1 h4) Bf7 16.Rb1 h4 17.h3 (allowing h3 seems to to be the best idea) Bh5 18.Qe1 Bd6 19.Nc4 Bg3 20. Qe3 Qd4 21.Na5+ Ka8 22.Qxd4 Rxd4 Black should have a good compensation for pawn.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #39 - 01/01/10 at 21:18:26
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 20:47:18:
On 13.b3 Black probably should play 13...Bd6 (making white to castle king side) 14.0-0 h5 (planning to weaken king side with h4-h3) 15.f5 (getting more space and making black bishop more passive) Bc8 16.Nc4 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rhe8 I think that this position could be playable for Black as it`s not so easy to find active plan for White while Black has plan to move  h-pawn up to h3 with Kb8(a8) Bb7 to follow.




Hmm, all very suspicious. You know, Rybka3, I don't like ending after 15.Nc4 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Bg4 17.Na5+ Kb6 18.Qc4 Qxc4 19.Nxc4+ Kb7 20.h3 and Na5+, many isolated Black pawns, especially in CC.

I think I will turn back to 3..Nf6
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #38 - 01/01/10 at 21:14:46
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What about 13.b4!? intending to blast open the queenside with b5?  This looks devastating with Rb1 and the queen can rejoin the attack.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #37 - 01/01/10 at 20:47:18
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On 13.b3 Black probably should play 13...Bd6 (making white to castle king side) 14.0-0 h5 (planning to weaken king side with h4-h3) 15.f5 (getting more space and making black bishop more passive) Bc8 16.Nc4 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rhe8 I think that this position could be playable for Black as it`s not so easy to find active plan for White while Black has plan to move  h-pawn up to h3 with Kb8(a8) Bb7 to follow.


  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #36 - 01/01/10 at 20:23:00
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 19:58:45:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 19:06:04:
AMM

May I ask your opinion about position after 
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. Bxa6 bxa6 10. Ne3 Nf6 11. f4 ? What would you suggest for Black?
   


Je,je,je. In my notes from a game vs. Ardila ( cited above ) I had already analyzed this !!; the position is the same, but arises from 7.Ncxd5 Be6 8.Bc4 Na6 and now I saw 9.Bxa6 Bxd5? 10.Nxd5 Qxd5 11.c4! ( see the Base I sent you ).

Ops, it seems a hard knockout !?; thus 6..d5 is finally dubtious as well. The position after yours 9..bxa6 10.Ne3 Nf6 11.f4! is playable, but a bit nasy as Black, don't?. White has a slow development after 11..exf3 12.Qxf3 Rd8 13.0-0 but Black has a pawn down and terrible queenside structure!.

Well, we are murdering the Gambit !? Sad


Well 11....exf3 is definitely not what I would like to play as Black. At the moment I`m exploring position after 11...0-0-0 12.Qe2 Kb7 in which despite of horrible pawn structure Black seems to have some compensation due to bishop pair and better development. 13.b3 (with Bb2 and 0-0-0 to follow) looks like to be the most troublesome for Black and I`m trying to find some good plan to encounter it.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #35 - 01/01/10 at 19:58:45
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 19:06:04:
AMM

May I ask your opinion about position after 
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. Bxa6 bxa6 10. Ne3 Nf6 11. f4 ? What would you suggest for Black?
   


Je,je,je. In my notes from a game vs. Ardila ( cited above ) I had already analyzed this !!; the position is the same, but arises from 7.Ncxd5 Be6 8.Bc4 Na6 and now I saw 9.Bxa6 Bxd5? 10.Nxd5 Qxd5 11.c4! ( see the Base I sent you ).

Ops, it seems a hard knockout !?; thus 6..d5 is finally dubtious as well. The position after yours 9..bxa6 10.Ne3 Nf6 11.f4! is playable, but a bit nasty as Black, don't?. White has a slow development after 11..exf3 12.Qxf3 Rd8 13.0-0 but Black has a pawn down and terrible queenside structure!.

Well, we are murdering the Gambit !? Sad
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #34 - 01/01/10 at 19:06:04
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AMM

May I ask your opinion about position after 
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. Bxa6 bxa6 10. Ne3 Nf6 11. f4 ? What would you suggest for Black?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #33 - 01/01/10 at 19:02:17
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 18:49:58:
Yes, indeed!?, sorry, 12..Nf6 is possible; anyway 12..Qg6 13.Bb2 Nf6 (or 12..Nf6 13.Bb2 Qg6) 14.Be2 Rhf8 15.Nf4 Qf7 16.Qe2 with a very small plus.


12...Nf6 13.Bb2 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Qxc4 should be OK for Black


AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 18:49:58:

Kosten think 6..Nc6 is the most correct but after 7.d5 Ne5 8.0-0 Nxc4 9.Bxc4 Black had many problems lately with 9..Qg6 or 9..Be7, so I think retrogade 6..Qd8 or semi-unknown 6..Ne7 with idea ..d5 are better


I agree that 6...Qd8 seems to be the best for Black as 6...Nc6 and 6...Ne7 seems to be at least suspicious. But 6...Qd8 leads to positions with at least small plus for White.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #32 - 01/01/10 at 18:49:58
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( from Korch )

AMM
 

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. b3 Bc5 10. O-O O-O 11. Ne3 12. bxc4

12...Nf6 is possible because Queen is on f7.

About 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 I agree that 8...Qg4 seems to be the best attempt for Black. Personally I`m more worried about  3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2 line.


Yes, indeed!?, sorry, 12..Nf6 is possible; anyway 12..Qg6 13.Bb2 Nf6 (or 12..Nf6 13.Bb2 Qg6) 14.Be2 Rhf8 15.Nf4 Qf7 16.Qe2 with a very small plus.

Also I'm a bit afraid on 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2.

Kosten think 6..Nc6 is the most correct but after 7.d5 Ne5 8.0-0 Nxc4 9.Bxc4 Black had many problems lately with 9..Qg6 or 9..Be7, so I think retrogade 6..Qd8 or semi-unknown 6..Ne7 with idea ..d5 are better
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #31 - 01/01/10 at 18:07:04
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Rebel-Yell wrote on 01/01/10 at 17:40:37:
How does black play after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 ?


See my previous answer.

I am not sure on 7..Be7 and I assume Black must to play classical old line 7..exf3 8.Qxf3 and now 8..Qg4!?.

Amateur David Zimbeck at http://www.zimbeckchess.com/chess_site_006.htm suggest 8..Nc6 9.Bd3 Qe6+!? 10.Be3 Qg4!?. The point of this is avoiding the "e" file for the Queen in the Main line 9..Qg4 10.Qe3+!, but all this is no relevant so White has previously 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3! preparing threats to "c7", so 9..Qe6+ 10.Be3 Qd7 it doesn't look especially tempting. Even according Tony Kosten in "Latvian gambit lives!" (2001) come to being the refutation of 8..Nc6
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #30 - 01/01/10 at 17:49:15
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Rebel-Yell wrote on 01/01/10 at 17:40:37:
How does black play after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 ?

Read previous post of AMM.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #29 - 01/01/10 at 17:48:02
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 15:18:43:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:52:04:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:45:37:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:32:42:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:26:55:
Korch,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? 7.Nexd5 Be6 (instead "Conquistador" 7..c6) and now Bucker points after 8.Bc4 Na6 9.b3!? "it might be difficult for Black to achieve full compensation" ...

After 9...Bc5 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd4 12.Ne3 Nc5 Black`s position seems to be not so bad.


11.Ne3 Bxc4 12.bxc4!? is not a bit risky with "b" open file? ...

After 12...Nf6 I don`t think that White pieces are too well placed to exploit it.



12..Nf6 is impossible, so the Queen is on "f6", so perhaps 12..Qg6 13.Rb1 (or 13.Bb2) then -both- 13..Nf6 etc.


                    And what's about Classical Main line with 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3  ?. In this key position:


                    1a) 8..Nc6 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3! threating on "c7" was already pointed by Kosten. In his book there are some games with 10..Rc8, 10..0-0-0 and 10..Kd8 all dubtious for Black, but I remember strong CC player Peter Leisebein suggested 10..d5!?; now "natural" 11.Nxc7+?! Kd7 etc. had success as Black in three games, but finally was refuted in a good way in Melchor-Zielinski, corr.,LADAC thema (sf.), 2008/09 with 11.Bd3! etc. 
 
                    1b) 8..Nf6 has been totally discredited by 9.Ne3! ( instead less clear and more known 9.Bd3 ) in later games. White decides to make "g4" unavailable for exchange the Queens, and Black play is totally passive. There are many games with this moves sequence
 
                    1c) 8..Qg4!? is less known and played, buy It was reccomended by myself. Kosten only analyzes 9.Qf2 ( I don't think exchanging Queens is good for White ) 9..Nf6 10.Be2 and now instead of Kosten's 10..Qe6?! I suggest 10..Qg6!?; In this order, THERE ARE NOT ANY GAME still played ( only traspositions, so they are very important ! ). Some examples:
 
                     11.Bd3 Qh5 12.0-0 Be7 (or 12..Nc6) 

                   *13.Ne2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Nf4 Qe8 (15..Qf7) = Fleischmann-Cano, corr., 1970 by trasposition

                   *13.Be3 0-0 14.h3 (14.Qg3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7=) 14..Nc6 15.Qg3 Be6 = Gaard-Müller, corr., 1988/89 by trasposition 

                   *13.Bf4 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 16.Ne3 White has more space, but Black is solid (Kosten)-- Bergsma-Wijnands, Rotterdam, 1939 by trasposition 1/2-1/2 in 60 moves)

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Qe3 Bd7 16.Rae1 Rae8 17.Ne2 1/2-1/2 Hewitt-Thornton, 1998, also by trasposition.

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 followed by ..Rae8 = Knostenbergs-Melchor, corr., 2001/02 (1/2-1/2 in 31 moves)

                    White can try15.Ne3 or Qg3, but they may be met by15..d5.

                    So perhaps White has to try for an improvement earlier. Ideas?, maybe 13.Nb5!?; 11.Ne3!?


                    Last times many players - as I myself - have tested 7..Be7!? to re-evaluate whole variation. Although we have got nice positions after 8.fxe4 Nh6! - or 8..Nc6 and 9..Nh6 -, I'm not sure about it if White plays 8.Nxe4 or 8.Ne3!?


AMM 

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. b3 Bc5 10. O-O O-O 11. Ne3 12. bxc4

12...Nf6 is possible because Queen is on f7.

About 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 I agree that 8...Qg4 seems to be the best attempt for Black. Personally I`m more worried about  3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2 line.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #28 - 01/01/10 at 17:40:37
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How does black play after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 ?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #27 - 01/01/10 at 15:18:43
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:52:04:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:45:37:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:32:42:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:26:55:
Korch,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? 7.Nexd5 Be6 (instead "Conquistador" 7..c6) and now Bucker points after 8.Bc4 Na6 9.b3!? "it might be difficult for Black to achieve full compensation" ...

After 9...Bc5 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd4 12.Ne3 Nc5 Black`s position seems to be not so bad.


11.Ne3 Bxc4 12.bxc4!? is not a bit risky with "b" open file? ...

After 12...Nf6 I don`t think that White pieces are too well placed to exploit it.



12..Nf6 is impossible, so the Queen is on "f6", so perhaps 12..Qg6 13.Rb1 (or 13.Bb2) then -both- 13..Nf6 etc.


                    And what's about Classical Main line with 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3  ?. In this key position:


                    1a) 8..Nc6 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3! threating on "c7" was already pointed by Kosten. In his book there are some games with 10..Rc8, 10..0-0-0 and 10..Kd8 all dubtious for Black, but I remember strong CC player Peter Leisebein suggested 10..d5!?; now "natural" 11.Nxc7+?! Kd7 etc. had success as Black in three games, but finally was refuted in a good way in Melchor-Zielinski, corr.,LADAC thema (sf.), 2008/09 with 11.Bd3! etc. 
 
                    1b) 8..Nf6 has been totally discredited by 9.Ne3! ( instead less clear and more known 9.Bd3 ) in later games. White decides to make "g4" unavailable for exchange the Queens, and Black play is totally passive. There are many games with this moves sequence
 
                    1c) 8..Qg4!? is less known and played, buy It was reccomended by myself. Kosten only analyzes 9.Qf2 ( I don't think exchanging Queens is good for White ) 9..Nf6 10.Be2 and now instead of Kosten's 10..Qe6?! I suggest 10..Qg6!?; In this order, THERE ARE NOT ANY GAME still played ( only traspositions, so they are very important ! ). Some examples:
 
                     11.Bd3 Qh5 12.0-0 Be7 (or 12..Nc6) 

                   *13.Ne2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Nf4 Qe8 (15..Qf7) = Fleischmann-Cano, corr., 1970 by trasposition

                   *13.Be3 0-0 14.h3 (14.Qg3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7=) 14..Nc6 15.Qg3 Be6 = Gaard-Müller, corr., 1988/89 by trasposition 

                   *13.Bf4 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 16.Ne3 White has more space, but Black is solid (Kosten)-- Bergsma-Wijnands, Rotterdam, 1939 by trasposition 1/2-1/2 in 60 moves)

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Qe3 Bd7 16.Rae1 Rae8 17.Ne2 1/2-1/2 Hewitt-Thornton, 1998, also by trasposition.

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 followed by ..Rae8 = Knostenbergs-Melchor, corr., 2001/02 (1/2-1/2 in 31 moves)

                    White can try15.Ne3 or Qg3, but they may be met by15..d5.

                    So perhaps White has to try for an improvement earlier. Ideas?, maybe 13.Nb5!?; 11.Ne3!?


                    Last times many players - as I myself - have tested 7..Be7!? to re-evaluate whole variation. Although we have got nice positions after 8.fxe4 Nh6! - or 8..Nc6 and 9..Nh6 -, I'm not sure about it if White plays 8.Nxe4 or 8.Ne3!?
 





« Last Edit: 01/01/10 at 16:40:37 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #26 - 01/01/10 at 14:52:04
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:45:37:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:32:42:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:26:55:
Korch,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? 7.Nexd5 Be6 (instead "Conquistador" 7..c6) and now Bucker points after 8.Bc4 Na6 9.b3!? "it might be difficult for Black to achieve full compensation" ...

After 9...Bc5 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd4 12.Ne3 Nc5 Black`s position seems to be not so bad.


11.Ne3 Bxc4 12.bxc4!? is not a bit risky with "b" open file? ...

After 12...Nf6 I don`t think that White pieces are too well placed to exploit it.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #25 - 01/01/10 at 14:45:37
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:32:42:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:26:55:
Korch,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? 7.Nexd5 Be6 (instead "Conquistador" 7..c6) and now Bucker points after 8.Bc4 Na6 9.b3!? "it might be difficult for Black to achieve full compensation" ...

After 9...Bc5 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd4 12.Ne3 Nc5 Black`s position seems to be not so bad.


11.Ne3 Bxc4 12.bxc4!? is not a bit risky with "b" open file? ...
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #24 - 01/01/10 at 14:32:42
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:26:55:
Korch,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? 7.Nexd5 Be6 (instead "Conquistador" 7..c6) and now Bucker points after 8.Bc4 Na6 9.b3!? "it might be difficult for Black to achieve full compensation" ...

After 9...Bc5 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd4 12.Ne3 Nc5 Black`s position seems to be not so bad.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #23 - 01/01/10 at 14:28:30
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About 7...Be6 - I feel black might face problems after 8.Bc4 Na6 (I don`t see anything better as 8...Bd6 fails to 9.Qe2) 9.Bxa6 bxa6 10.Ne3 Nf6 11.f4!
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #22 - 01/01/10 at 14:26:55
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Korch,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? 7.Nexd5 Be6 (instead "Conquistador" 7..c6) and now Bucker points after 8.Bc4 Na6 9.b3!? "it might be difficult for Black to achieve full compensation" ...
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #21 - 01/01/10 at 12:57:47
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AMM wrote on 12/30/09 at 02:16:19:
OK Conquistador, good work !. I see that you know several games with this move ... and that you want to refute the gambit as White at full speed ! ( By the way, I can also read you in www.chess.com, but I have problems on registering )

Thus, we reject again 5..Qg6 and we must to go back to 5..Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!?. We will need some time to improve ideas by Stefan Bucker in http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss44.pdf. Their analysis was not very detailed, I am not entirely agreed and additionally, it needs to be tested in practice ( Thus I have already material to try as Black in the Final of next World Tournament of gambit in February ! ). Ideas ( please, for second player ... so I will need for the Tourney ... Smiley ):


7.Nexd5 (7.Ncxd5 Be6! 8.Bc4 Bd6 etc. Melchor-Ardila, cr. email LADAC thema sf., 2008/09 was quoted by Bucker as playable for Black ) 7..c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3!? ( Bucker ) 9..exf3 10.Qxf3 Be6 11.Be2 Nbd7 12.d4 0-0-0 ( or 12..Bd6 choosing short castle ) and as in other lines on LG, Black has chances to exchange the kingside pawns and draw the resulting 4 vs. 3 on the queenside situation. Similar variations it has been played often in this way - Black always with pawn down - but without excessive problems for drawing ( at least in postal chess with Nalimov Tablebases ).

Hmm... we see if finally I MUST CHOOSE 3..Nf6!? !!  Grin
 


In my opinion 7...Be6 can be played also after 7.Nexd5. 7...c6 seems to be dubious.

P.S. Oops... Buecker has already mentioned 7...Be6 as move he would prefer.  Smiley 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #20 - 01/01/10 at 12:55:57
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 12:49:54:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 12:22:38:
Conquistador wrote on 12/31/09 at 23:22:15:
Stefan you gave the line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 Bc5 10.Be2 exf3 11.Bxf3 0-0 12.0-0 

and white is clearly better.

What about 10...Nc6 instead of 10...exf3 ? After 11.fxe4 Bxe3 12.dxe3 Rd8 13.Bd3 0-0 14.0-0 Ne5 Black should have compensation for the pawn.


10..Nc6 its is an impossible move, so 7..c6 was played at 7th. move ...

My mistake - I thought that 7...Be6 was played  Lips Sealed
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #19 - 01/01/10 at 12:49:54
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 12:22:38:
Conquistador wrote on 12/31/09 at 23:22:15:
Stefan you gave the line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 Bc5 10.Be2 exf3 11.Bxf3 0-0 12.0-0 

and white is clearly better.

What about 10...Nc6 instead of 10...exf3 ? After 11.fxe4 Bxe3 12.dxe3 Rd8 13.Bd3 0-0 14.0-0 Ne5 Black should have compensation for the pawn.


10..Nc6 its is an impossible move, so 7..c6 was played at 7th. move ...
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #18 - 01/01/10 at 02:12:20
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Well, according to all these moves, 6..d5 not resolve Black play either, so we should put one's trust in the following line pointed by Stefan with 3.Nxe5 Nf6 :

4.Ac4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 ( by transposition we are in the Morgado System ) 6.Nc3 Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 8.0-0 returning the pawn, but opening the position and leaving the Black King and Queen in the same row. Now, instead of Kosten suggest 8..Bd6 9.g3. fxe4  wherever White reply 10.Re1 Kd8 11.Nxe4!; correct move-order is  8..fxe4 9.Nd5-  threatening Bf4 – 9..Nxd5 10.Bxd5 Bd6!? ( 10..c6 11.Bxe4 was already pointed by Hagen Tiemann; now f.i. if 11..Bd6 12.f4!? ) 11.g3 ( 11.f4 Bc5+ 12.Kh1 Qd4 solving all problems in Fragola-Valverde, corr. LADAC thema, 2006 ) 11..c6 12.Bxe4 0-0 13.Qd3 h6 ( Stefan Bücker ), when Black can probably hold an uncomfortable but playable position: 14.c3 Qf6 15.Be3 Be5 16.Bh7+ kh8 17.f4 Bc7 18.Bg6 Bb6 19.f5 d5 20.Rae1 Bd7 (Rybka3)

Je,je, if Latvian has been finally refuted with "drawing pen", we should change to the Philidor Countergambit. There is a terrible debate between James West and Dennis Monokrousos in internet too !?  Cheesy , but paradoxically it has not been analyzed deeply in this forum

  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #17 - 12/31/09 at 23:22:15
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Stefan you gave the line:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 Bc5 10.Be2 exf3 11.Bxf3 0-0 12.0-0 

and white is clearly better.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #16 - 12/31/09 at 19:17:02
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I think that the exchange on f3 looks positionally strong for white.  Black looks to be in a bind.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Be6 11.d4 Bb4 12.a3 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Nbd7 14.Bd3 and white has a solid advantage.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Be6 11.d4 Bd6 12.Bd3 Nbd7 13.0-0 0-0-0 14.a4 Rhf8 15.a5 Qe8 16.Qe2 and white has a significant advantage.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Be6 11.d4 Bd6 12.Bd3 Nbd7 13.0-0 0-0 14.Nf5 and white has a solid advantage.

  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #15 - 12/30/09 at 04:41:35
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Yes I am on chess.com.  I like the community and the correspondence games.  Probably the only thing of importance I have done there was my work on the Traxler, but that is for another thread.

Ironically enough, I was looking at that exact variation as the only way I could find a solid advantage for white.

Personally, in this variation I would not put my light square bishop on e2 as it has no influence!  In this position white needs to control e4 and e5.  So white needs to play d4 and Bd3.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5 7.Nexd5 c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 Be6 11.d4

Now for a sample line

11...Bb4 12.a3 Bxc3+ 13.bxc3 Nbd7 14.Bd3 and white looks strong and can focus their attack on the kingside or queenside depending on where black castles.

Now you mentioned in the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 as a possibility.  4.Bc4 looks pretty strong to me threatening Nf7 forcing more concessions.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #14 - 12/30/09 at 02:16:19
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OK Conquistador, good work !. I see that you know several games with this move ... and that you want to refute the gambit as White at full speed ! ( By the way, I can also read you in www.chess.com, but I have problems on registering )

Thus, we reject again 5..Qg6 and we must to go back to 5..Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!?. We will need some time to improve ideas by Stefan Bucker in http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss44.pdf. Their analysis was not very detailed, I am not entirely agreed and additionally, it needs to be tested in practice ( Thus I have already material to try as Black in the Final of next World Tournament of gambit in February ! ). Ideas ( please, for second player ... so I will need for the Tourney ... Smiley ):


7.Nexd5 (7.Ncxd5 Be6! 8.Bc4 Bd6 etc. Melchor-Ardila, cr. email LADAC thema sf., 2008/09 was quoted by Bucker as playable for Black ) 7..c6 8.Ne3 Nf6 9.f3!? ( Bucker ) 9..exf3 10.Qxf3 Be6 11.Be2 Nbd7 12.d4 0-0-0 ( or 12..Bd6 choosing short castle ) and as in other lines on LG, Black has chances to exchange the kingside pawns and draw the resulting 4 vs. 3 on the queenside situation. Similar variations it has been played often in this way - Black always with pawn down - but without excessive problems for drawing ( at least in postal chess with Nalimov Tablebases ).

Hmm... we see if finally I MUST CHOOSE 3..Nf6!? !!  Grin
 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #13 - 12/29/09 at 21:28:11
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In my investigations, I found that in the line:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 

Instead of 6.d3, 6.Nd5 seems better.

6.Nd5 Kd8 (6...Na6 7.d4 Qf7 8.Nce3 c6 9.Bxa6 cxd5 10.Be2) 7.d4 d6 8.Nf4 Qf7 9.d5

  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #12 - 12/29/09 at 17:58:43
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The important point of the whole Line is 8.dxe4 ( instead of 8.Nxe4 ) and what happen when Black transposes to known variations after 7..Bxc3 8.Bxc3 Nf6 9.dxe4 Nxe4 ( from 8..Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Nxe4 ) 10.Bd3 0-0 11.0-0 Nxc3 12.bxc3 etc. All this is well known from long time ago, but it should be re-evaluated

7..Nf6!? avoid 7..Bxc3 8.Bxc3 Nf6 and now instead our 9.dxe4 Nxe4 10.Bd3 trasposing, White would play 9.Bxf6! gxf6 10.dxe4 ( also 10.Ne3!? ) 10..Qxe4+ 11.Ne3 Qb4+ 12.c3 etc. wherever White has the adventage according ancient games
« Last Edit: 12/29/09 at 21:27:50 by AMM »  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #11 - 12/29/09 at 17:23:43
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AMM wrote on 12/29/09 at 16:11:14:
After 5..Qg6, [...] until recently amateur David Zimbeck in his web http://www.zimbeckchess.com/chess_site_006.htm may have recovered somewhat its value.

Zimbeck maintains after well-known and natural White moves 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2, Black must now play directly 7..Nf6 ( instead of 7..Bxc3 8.Bxc3 Nf6 ) so even losing a whole pawn, allows second player remain in the game:
-8.Nxe4 Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 [...] 9..d5 ( 9..0-0 is inferior ). This position was known from a game Ginzburg-Perez Pietronave, Argentina, 1995 which it followed according to the recommendation of the "engines" 10.Nxf6+ Qxf6 11.Qe3+ Be6 12.Ne5 0-0 13.Be2 ( 13. d4 Nc6 Zimbeck, and now could be continue 14.Bd3 Bf5 15.0-0 Bxd3 16.cxd3 Qd6 without problems ) 13..Nd7 14.d4 and now diverting from the game, Black should play 14..Nxe5 15.dxe5 Qg6 ( or even 14..Qf4 ) which it takes to a comfortable position, and also recovering the pawn.

Earlier in this thread I strangely forgot that 5...Qg6 was alive and kicking. My 2009 article on ChessCafe had mentioned your main line, it also gave the alternative 11...Kd8!? (instead of 11...Be6) which also seems playable for Black:
"In the endings after 11...Be6 12 Ne5 0-0 13 d4 Nc6 14 Bd3 Bf5 15 0-0 Bxd3 16 cxd3 or 11...Kd8!? 12 Ne5 Re8 13 d4 (13 f4 g5) 13...c5 14 c3 Nc6 15 f4 cxd4 16 cxd4 g5 17 fxg5 Qg7 18 Bb5 (18 0-0-0 Nxe5) 18...Nxd4 19 0-0-0 Qc7+ Black has active pieces and reasonable drawing chances."
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #10 - 12/29/09 at 16:11:14
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Stefan and "Conquistador":

Yes indeed, the move 3..Nc6 has several possible refutations but always from 4.Qh5+ , not 4.d4 ( John Nunn, "Secret of practical chess" ), so if not, 4..Qe7 or 4..Qf6 can be still allowed. "Conquistador", alternatives you show are clear, and other ways I know as Black are also invalid.

I still believe after 3..Qf6 key is 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 etc.

The other main line from 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3, also allows besides 5..Qf7 6.Ne1 d5!? ( which it must be analyzed in depth, so although Black sacrifices a pawn, his development is up, and  practice has shown it is very difficult for White to win ), the former move 5..Qg6.

The move was already quoted in http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1239692688 . I wrote something more in my own blog (http://amm-ajedrezando.blogspot.com/2009/11/gambito-leton-analisis-1.html in Spanish ), but now I will translate it here:

After 5..Qg6, as I have quoted, Black Queen is a bit exposed and White often proceed with its relentless with d3 and after the exchange of pawns recapturing with the Bishop. Although it was the initial line, was gradually abandoned ( in favour of 5..Qf7 ) until recently amateur David Zimbeck in his web http://www.zimbeckchess.com/chess_site_006.htm may have recovered somewhat its value.

Zimbeck maintains after well-known and natural White moves 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2, Black must now play directly 7..Nf6 ( instead of 7..Bxc3 8.Bxc3 Nf6 ) so even losing a whole pawn, allows second player remain in the game:

-8.dxe4 0-0!? 9.f3 d5 10.Nxd5 Nxd5 11.exd5 Bc5 of Melchor-Valverde, cr. LADAC thema, e-mail, 2006/07, ( 1/2-1/2, 47 ) led to a difficult ending where White never seemed with possibility of win. My position was always better, but the Black position was sound.

-8.dxe4 Bxc3 9.Bxc3 Nxe4 10.Bd3 0-0 11.0-0 Nxc3 12.bxc3 is known from first thematic tournaments of 1970's ( also Hagen Tiemann in the second 1989 edition of his book of Latvian, page 22 ). I have 25 games, and it has been tested 12..Qg5; 12..Qh6; and 12..Qf6.I believe this last move, 12..Qf6 ( 12 games ), is pehaps best one. I cannot deny after 13.Qh5 g6 14.Qa5 Qd8!? ( I don't like 14..Nc6 of Tiemann, or 14..Na6, or 14..c6 of several games ) and with the help of ... Rybka3, the position, although "nasty" and  poorly developed for Black, is perfectly playable, … at least in postal chess ( I myself have tested dozens of lines ). Truly it is sad Black recourse to these lines, but what else? if we have so tight margin !.

-8.Nxe4 Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 ( American player also gives 9.Nexd2 0-0 10.Ne1 d5 and both 11.d4 or 11.Nf3, then 11..Ng4! ) 9..d5 ( 9..0-0 is inferior ). This position was known from a game Ginzburg-Perez Pietronave, Argentina, 1995 which it followed according to the recommendation of the "engines" 10.Nxf6+ Qxf6 11.Qe3+ Be6 12.Ne5 0-0 13.Be2 ( 13. d4 Nc6 Zimbeck, and now could be continue 14.Bd3 Bf5 15.0-0 Bxd3 16.cxd3 Qd6 without problems ) 13..Nd7 14.d4 and now diverting from the game, Black should play 14..Nxe5 15.dxe5 Qg6 ( or even 14..Qf4 ) which it takes to a comfortable position, and also recovering the pawn.

It is already noteworthy Zimbeck show next beautiful line: 10.Ne5 Nxe4! 11.Nxd2 Nxg6 12.Nxf1 Nxh8 etc. subject of debate linked above and although engines spend a few time in viewing, just give reason Black side.


Alejandro Melchor


PS. If somebody wants my "Godzilla" Base ( 15000 games, many of them with notes ) I could send him. You can write me to amelchor@eresmas.net
Hmm,... I think we should write another book  Cheesy so i'ts impossible to talk all time on Latvian !?
 
 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #9 - 12/29/09 at 11:02:27
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From my ChessCafe article: 
"3...Nc6 is sometimes mentioned as an unusual alternative, but there is a clear refutation: 4 Qh5+ g6 5 Nxg6 Nf6 6 Qh3 hxg6 7 Qxh8 Qe7 8 Nc3! Nb4 (Perez Cruz – Acosta, corr. 1994; Massow Memorial) 9 d3 +-."

I agree with almost everything which Alejandro wrote above. It will be interesting to watch whether 5...Qg6 can be repaired. In the Dreibergs (5...Na6) and the 6...d5 Variation (Atars?!), my article wasn't very detailed. 5...Na6 offers interesting chances, if White doesn't find 6.a3!. However, this pawn move was quite frustrating for Black, so it would have been pointless to give all the details for the weaker replies to Na6. I also didn't really like the 6...d5 line.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #8 - 12/29/09 at 03:43:59
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What about 4.Qh5+ instead of 4.d4?  It looks like black is in trouble in several lines.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Nxg6 Nf6 6.Qh4 Rg8 7.Nxf8 Rg4 8.Qh6 Rxe4+ 9.Be2 Qe7 10.Nxh7 Rxe2+ 11.Kd1 Ng4 12.Qg6+ Kd8 13.Qg8+ Qe8 14.Qxe8+ Rxe8 15.Rf1 Rh8 16.h3 Rxh7 17.hxg4 fxg4 18.d3

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Nxg6 Nf6 6.Qh4 Rg8 7.e5 Nxe5 (7...Rxg6 8.exf6 Qxf6 9.Qxf6 Rxf6 10.c3 d5 11.d4 f4 12.Bd3 h5 13.Nd2) 8.Nxe5 Qe7 9.Be2 Qxe5 10.d4 Qa5+ 11.Kd1

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.Qh5+ g6 5.Nxg6 Nf6 6.Qh4 hxg6 7.Qxh8 Qe7 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.d3 Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.Bg5 Kf7 12.Nd5 Bg7 13.Qxg7+ Kxg7 14.Nxe7
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #7 - 12/29/09 at 02:49:59
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Conquistador wrote on 12/28/09 at 15:30:33:
Well, just when you think carthage is destroyed, it rises again!
I faced this new move over the board and could not get the overwelming advantage I am used to in these lines.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!?

Help me bury this beast!


In December 2008 I wrote two "Godzilla" articles in a Spanish web ( respectively http://www.ajedreznd.com/visor/leton1.htm and http://www.ajedreznd.com/visor/leton2.htm) trying to save the Latvian on some lines very difficult to play with Black. During this year 2009 I have read with interest in this forum, in articles published by Stefan Buecker in www.chesscafe.com, and especially in USA forums how it has been analyzing very carefully some of the ideas that I myself suggested.

Just really these days I was working in an English translation of the article I wrote in Spanish ( abbreviated, since this one is enormous !, and focusing on the line 9...Bc5, former main line so as we know has been absolutely refuted ).

Looking for new ideas for the second player I think I have found new assessments to 5..Qg6 ( reading an old book by Hagen Tiemann of 1989 ), as well as the idea I already suggested in 5..Qf7 and 6..d5!?. I believe even recognizing Stefan is best player than myself  Wink, he give few analysis of this last option, the ideas even being correct, barely it devotes two lines. As for the "old" 5..Qg6 I cannot explain at this time my ideas, on February 1 starts the Final of 6th World Ch.of the gambit ( by correspondence ), and clearly, I need to keep my secrets ... Grin if not some player could read here. Indeed these players are among the most "updated" on the Gambit Theory nowadays, in addition, some of them are strong postal players ( They don't need to have computers, because they were already strong several years ago ! ).

There is a clear summary lately with the gambit. Theoretically we can try on refuting here in forums, but I can assure you in a real OTB ( wherever I usually play ) all this is very different; White player can to know something of Theory, even lines leading to the game 10-12, but if the Black player knows the lines more concrete ( as is my case ) it will come to the middlegame with a sufficient position, and the most important, he will know those positions. It is sure any player stronger than oneself always will suffer ( also it would happen if we play any other opening ), but I can assure you I have won several OTB players ranked between 2000-2200 ELO FIDE. I believe, up to 2300, problem is not the gambit, ... but the level of play !, although you equalizes after opening, ..you will lose at the middle game, .. or worse, in the Ending ! ( At least, for me, so usually I have been in 2100 ELO FIDE ). 

If someone has an interest, in a few days I will publish a "short" translation of the article I wrote in Spanish. About 5..Qf7; 6..d5!? is not necessary because it was commented extensively on this same forum ( see the link that says "Conquistador" ).

Relating on 3..Nf6, analyzed very extensively by Stefan this past summer ( in the link he says ), I think it's a great article, perhaps some analysis more specific is needed so I have doubts, but at least, in most lines White should have permanent initiative, although slight.

I still believe Black should play 3..Qf6, and also 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 is wherever Black has even greater problems than 4.Nc4

Finally, two ideas barely known: 3.Nxe5 Nc6 4.d4! (John Nunn ) 4..Qe7!? and 4..Qf6!?

Certainly Latvian is dying ( I have experience in official post and OTB games from 1978 ! ), but I doubt some day die ( perhaps only by postal, and revenging hard his death ).

In forums, is already buried ( But for me I am only interested in OTB ! )


Alejandro Melchor
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #6 - 12/28/09 at 20:22:29
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Conquistador wrote on 12/28/09 at 17:30:54:
Yeah, I did my own work on the 5...Na6 variation and it was not sufficient for black.
5...Na6 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2 exd3 (7...Qe6 8.dxe4 Nf6 9.Qe2; 7...Ne7 8.dxe4 0-0 9.Qe2 d6 10.a3 Nc6 11.e5 Qg6 12.0-0-0) 8.Bxd3 Ne7 (8...Qe6+ 9.Ne3) 9.0-0 0-0 10.a3
White has a pretty significant advantage here.  I think I remember you came to a similar conclusion.

From my article: "6 d3 Bb4 7 Bd2 Ne7! 8.dxe4 0-0 9 Qe2 c6 10 0-0-0 b5 is anything but clear." (better: 7.dxe4). My main line ran 6.a3! ... +/-. 
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #5 - 12/28/09 at 17:30:54
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Yeah, I did my own work on the 5...Na6 variation and it was not sufficient for black.
5...Na6 6.d3 Bb4 7.Bd2 exd3 (7...Qe6 8.dxe4 Nf6 9.Qe2; 7...Ne7 8.dxe4 0-0 9.Qe2 d6 10.a3 Nc6 11.e5 Qg6 12.0-0-0) 8.Bxd3 Ne7 (8...Qe6+ 9.Ne3) 9.0-0 0-0 10.a3
White has a pretty significant advantage here.  I think I remember you came to a similar conclusion.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #4 - 12/28/09 at 17:17:32
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Yes, in this chesspub thread Alejandro Melchor had mentioned 6...d5 as one of the three ideas which represented "Black's last hopes" to survive in the Leonhardt Variation of the Latvian Gambit. 

Later I discussed his analyses in http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss44.pdf (and in columns 45 and 46) coming to the conclusion that neither the Löwenthal Variation 3...Nf6 nor Dreibergs' 5...Na6 gave Black sufficient compensation. I wasn't entirely sure about 6....d5. But after my favourite 3...Nf6 has failed, the move 6...d5 (apparently introduced by Atars) could well be seen as the "last attempt". Find something convincing for White, and you could be the one who buries the Latvian Gambit.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #3 - 12/28/09 at 17:16:00
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Yes, I recall that thread (and commented in it).  It seems that much of this Latvian "theory" leads to positions where Black is just a pawn down, but then there is a comment like "if White is better, it cannot be by much" or "game X ended in a draw" or some such.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #2 - 12/28/09 at 17:03:40
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It seems like it should be that easy, but it is actually more resiliant.  There is some theory on the move.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1194567910/30
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #1 - 12/28/09 at 16:31:11
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I dare say White should be satisfied with an extra pawn, a lead in development, a better structure and no weaknesses after 7 moves.
  
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C40: New move in the Latvian
12/28/09 at 15:30:33
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Well, just when you think carthage is destroyed, it rises again!
I faced this new move over the board and could not get the overwelming advantage I am used to in these lines.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!?

Help me bury this beast!
« Last Edit: 07/17/11 at 03:05:15 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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