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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Problematic London System line (Read 22812 times)
Markovich
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Re: Problematic London System line
Reply #8 - 01/27/10 at 13:35:30
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I wonder if we could all mangage a little more amicability on this thread?  If Anonymous3 wants to talk about chess, I fail to see why we can't do that without snapping at him for trusting his computer too much. 

@Anonymous3: It's often better to ignore a little impoliteness than to post back, "Please don't say anything like that again," particularly to someone who's actually given you some useful advice.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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nyoke
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Re: Problematic London System line
Reply #7 - 01/27/10 at 07:51:34
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Quote:
I said that I don't understand why Black needs to get a knight to d6.


It's clear you don't. 

After all, why play the best move in dull positions ?
You could spoil the fun !
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: Problematic London System line
Reply #6 - 01/27/10 at 02:48:29
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MNb

I gave more comments on 2...Bf5, 3...e6, and 4...Bd6. I said it can lead to some very dull positions. I also showed some of what Prie and "Win with the London System" give and say about this line and why I disagree with Prie's assessment and why I think Black has improvements to what "Win with the London System" gives. 

I never said I don't understand why a knight on d6 is much better than a knight on d7, of course a knight on d6 is much better than a knight on d7 in that type of position. I said that I don't understand why Black needs to get a knight to d6. Playing ...Nbd7 is more than sufficient to give Black equality. 

You said that you agree with Prie because he is a GM with expericence in the opening and I am only a patzer. Well, one of the co-authors of the book "Win with the London System" is GM Vlatko Kovacevic and he has experience in the opening. There are some lines in that book where I disagree with the assessment of the position. Some of my assessments have been backed up by Prie in his analysis on the London here on chesspub. This proves that you can't always just go with what a GM with experience in the opening says and dismiss what a patzer says.
  
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MNb
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Re: Problematic London System line
Reply #5 - 01/26/10 at 10:08:12
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You don''t get it, do you? Apparently you haven't played through that Portisch-Kasparov game yet.
You did not give any comment on 2...Bf5; 3...e6; and 4...Bd6; except that you think it an easy and quick equalizer and that your silicon buddy agrees. So what do we have:

1) A GM with experience in this opening who claims an edge for White with the argument of a superior pawn structure, which enables him/her to conduct a minority attack;
2) A patzer like me who claims dull equality with the argument that Fritz Rybka confirms this evaluation. Moreover this patzer does not understand why a knight on d6 is much better than on d7, something to be found in any book on the minority attack.

Now on whose side you think I am gonna be?
I repeat my recommendation: study a book on the minority attack.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Anonymous3
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Re: Problematic London System line
Reply #4 - 01/26/10 at 01:01:17
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MNB, I also provided some useful comments on 2...Bf5, 3...e6, and 4...Bd6.

Even if a knight on d6 is a nightmare to anyone wanting to conduct a minority attack in this pawn structure, Black doesn't need to get a knight to d6. Black can just put the b8-knight on d7 and has a very solid and perfectly fine position.
« Last Edit: 01/26/10 at 08:23:30 by Anonymous3 »  
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MNb
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Re: Problematic London System line
Reply #3 - 01/26/10 at 00:52:06
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The only useful comment you provided is that you don't understand the importance of a knight on d6 - and Kylemeister addressed that point nicely. That game Portisch-Kasparov, Skelleftea 1989, very much clarifies it. Of course you also could have consulted a textbook on the minority attack instead of your computers. Euwe already wrote about it 40 years ago at least, so I know it since the early 80's.

A knight on d6 is the nightmare of anyone who wants to conduct the minority attack as White in this pawn structure.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Anonymous3
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Re: Problematic London System line
Reply #2 - 01/25/10 at 23:49:18
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Kylemeister, you make it seem like using computer evaluations is bad. The computers are above grandmaster level so their evaluations should be taken seriously but I know that you can't always trust what they give. I was basically just using the computers to see if they agreed with my assessment of the position and they do. They also showed me that 6...c6 allows White to gain a slight advantage in several ways.    

Kylemeister, please don't make any more comments like this that add nothing to the topic being discussed.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Problamatic London System line
Reply #1 - 01/25/10 at 23:33:15
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I had a sort of premonition when I started reading that some computer evaluation(s) would be coming up ...

Regarding the knight on d6, you could look at Portisch-Kasparov, for one thing.
  
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Anonymous3
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Problematic London System line
01/25/10 at 23:20:06
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After 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4, 2...Bf5, 3...e6 and 4...Bd6 seems to me to be a very easy and quick equalizer for Black and can lead to some very dull positions. I know that Black has other ways to equalize against the London System but they don't seem to give Black equality as easily and quickly and don't lead to positions that are this dull.  

Prie recommends 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 Bf5 3 c4 e6 4 Nc3 Bd6 5 Bxd6 Qxd6 6 Nf3 Nf6 7 e3 0-0 8 cxd5 exd5 9 Bd3 Bxd3 10 Qxd3 and says "I prefer White because of the superior structure, enabling a minority attack, while it is not easy for Black to get a magic knight to d6". However, I don't think White's very small superior structure is going to give White an advantage here and I don't know why Black needs to get a knight to d6. The position is basically dead even and very dull to me. Fritz 11 and Rybka 3 judge the position basically dead even. 

Win with the London System gives 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 Bf5 3 c4 e6 4 Nc3 Bd6 5 Bxd6 Qxd6 6 e3 and now only mentions 6...c6 but then Fritz 11 and Rybka 3 think White has several ways to gain a slight advantage. However, I think 6...Nf6 or 6...Nc6 should be fine for Black and again the position seems basically dead even and very dull to me. 

Any ideas here on how White can gain an advantage against 2...Bf5, 3...e6, and 4...Bd6?
« Last Edit: 01/26/10 at 08:25:39 by Anonymous3 »  
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