Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move (Read 21880 times)
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #28 - 07/29/10 at 03:58:44
Post Tools
Yeah, some of that is in Williams' DVD. Against white's f3, he recommends a line with Nh5 and Qh4 to play on the king side. But nobody at my level ever actually plays f3. As I improve and face tougher opponents, I'll have to re-watch that DVD to get a better feel for those lines, since somebody's bound to play f3 against me eventually, but it just hasn't happened yet.

  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #27 - 07/29/10 at 03:16:37
Post Tools
Fromper wrote on 07/28/10 at 02:29:43:
Yeah, if white plays e3 instead of g3, I go for Bb4 (after Nc3), b6 and Bb7.

I don't like 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 Bb4 very much either because of Lautier-Vaisser, FRAch 2001. White could have played 16.Be1 Nh5 17.Bf2 Nd6 18.Rad1 with a nagging edge; this is not in Williams' book, though he concludes 16.Rfd1 += as well. I haven't found earlier improvements either for Black.
So now I think Black's best is 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e3 b6 (which tends to transpose to the English or Owen Defence - I have problems remembering the difference) and after the critical 5.Bd3 Bb7 White has to decide what to do with the King's Knight: 6.Nf3 Bb4 and 6.f3 Be7 are my preferences.
I have come to the conclusion that White wins the battle for square e4 with the setup e3, f3, Bd3 and Nge2. That means that the bishop on b4 is misplaced. Fortunately for Black there are other ways to create counterplay: see Gonzalez-Yepes Martinez, Badalona Open 1993.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #26 - 07/28/10 at 02:29:43
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 07/27/10 at 23:26:36:
In fact 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Be7?! is dubious because of a game Van den Berg-Burstein, Haifa/Tel Aviv 1958: 5.e3 0-0 6.Bd3 d6 7.0-0 Qe8 8.e4.
Of course white has 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 and now a5 8.e3 is the position of the original post. Here it is not obvious at all why 4...Bb4+ should be better.

Yeah, if white plays e3 instead of g3, I go for Bb4 (after Nc3), b6 and Bb7. But I'm not sure if Bb4 is any good against white's king fianchetto. I believe Williams' "Play the Classical Dutch" covers it, so I should probably dig into that. I own it, but I haven't read it. At my level (1700ish USCF), I don't usually read opening books. I just use them to look up answers to specific questions.

Thanks for the comments, all!
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #25 - 07/27/10 at 23:26:36
Post Tools
In fact 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Be7?! is dubious because of a game Van den Berg-Burstein, Haifa/Tel Aviv 1958: 5.e3 0-0 6.Bd3 d6 7.0-0 Qe8 8.e4.
Of course white has 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 and now a5 8.e3 is the position of the original post. Here it is not obvious at all why 4...Bb4+ should be better.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Annihilator
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 18
Joined: 11/15/07
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #24 - 07/27/10 at 06:41:06
Post Tools
I am not going to comment on the full classical dutch line because I do not know those lines in any sort of depth. But, if I am not mistaken a much stronger plan for Black when white plays this move order is 4...Bb4. I would recommend playing this to take full advantage of Whites unorthodox move order.

1. d4 e6 2. c4 f5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Be7 (4...Bb4)

However this would require understanding more positions after Bb4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #23 - 07/20/10 at 17:43:32
Post Tools
"Reassess" taken as a complete chess course does suffer from this flaw of not giving enough on dynamic chess. But it succeeds in improving most amateurs' positional understanding and planning. It's just one (really good) book, not the holy grail!

The solution is simple: Study it, then later study something good on attacking play (Vukovic, Aagaard) or dynamic chess in general (Marovic or Beim maybe).
Or even just learn some dynamic openings and work to understand them well.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #22 - 07/20/10 at 16:42:50
Post Tools
Exchange sacrifices and attacks can still lead to "typical" endgames, you know.  And as for the idea that a 1700 player shouldn't study a book like Silman's because it insufficiently reflects the dynamism of chess as currently played by 2700 players, or some such ...well, let's just say I disagree.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ship
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 3
Joined: 12/01/09
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #21 - 07/20/10 at 16:15:19
Post Tools
I have to say that Jeremy silmans book is very good, but it would probably hurt your chess in the short term and possibly permanently. The reason for this is that the book focuses on the static features of chess, while modern chess is rather dynamic.

I have to say that studying the endgame is extremely useful for improving your opening and middlegame play. Then you will appreciate having the bishop pair out of the opening.

But again, chess is so dynamic today that you rarely will find yourself in a typical endgame. Your opponent will sacrifice the exchange or play for some other type of attack.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #20 - 07/13/10 at 18:54:11
Post Tools
An aside on Chernev's Most Instructive Games book: There really are lots of instructive games I've enjoyed studying there (Smyslov-Reshevsky, 1948 is a favorite) and little overlap with Silman's Reassess which is good when you intend to read both.

But some of Chernev's comments look comically dogmatic from a modern point of view, for example when he criticizes some poor master for breaking the well-known rule "knights before bishops" in the opening, and condescendingly adds "Some people just won't listen!" In reality of course a master decides wich minor piece to develop from the specifics of the position, not by relying on some old Tarrasch rule intended for beginners.

Also there is a tendency to present the games as streamlined performances from the winner, rather than the hard and imperfect struggles most games (both classical and modern) really are.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #19 - 07/13/10 at 16:50:02
Post Tools
I understand you Fromper, and I'm sure what you're doing will help your game.   I just think that, based on what you've said and reading some of your other posts around here, you're ready to tackle positional play.  I think you'll be surprised at how quickly you will improve when you do.   

I'd recommend Silman's How to Reassess Your Chess, then maybe Mednis' Strategic Chess if you want to improve your play in closed openings.  I think if you've made it above 1700 by studying tactics and endgames, you're ready to tackle positional play.  I doubt you'll improve much more before you do, because 1700 is already fairly strong club player strength.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #18 - 07/12/10 at 15:25:17
Post Tools
Again, I'm not disagreeing with any of you. I do intend to do more general study eventually. Books that I already own and hope to actually have time to read in the near future include Chernev's "Most Instructive Games of Chess Ever Played" and Silman's "Amateur's Mind" and "How to Reassess Your Chess".

But for now, I'm mostly focused on tactics, and researching specific scenarios that come up in my openings as they come up.

  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #17 - 07/12/10 at 14:01:23
Post Tools
I was exaggerating a bit, of course. How To Reassess Your Chess is still one of my all-time favorite chess books and I think everybody should read at least one good book of this kind as a part of their chess education.

But how about this idea: 

We are not limited to books or even training videos when studying our chosen openings. A good method should be to play through lots of games from a large database (limited to around one's own level, or above a certain rating, world-class games etc. etc. - the possibilities are many). Do this fairly quickly, but just slowly enough to stop and intuitively choose the candidate moves. Every time a move (especially by a strong player) comes as a surprise, there is an opportunity to learn or solidify a new plan or tactical idea. Any positional themes that arise very rarely or not at all in those games, are not relevant to that opening and can be ignored for the time being.

This way the training will targeted both to a limited set of openings AND to your own personal weaknesses! I'm planning to try this myself over the next few months.
« Last Edit: 07/12/10 at 16:23:32 by Stigma »  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #16 - 07/12/10 at 04:45:28
Post Tools
The problem is, when you sit down to play a game, your opponent will come up with something original that isn't covered in books on your opening.  I actually am advocating studying positional themes that arise in your opening--it's just that those themes are much more varied than you will find in any book on that particular opening.  How often in an anti-Sicilian line do you say something like: "Black has a French with his Queen's Bishop outside the pawn chain"?  In the Grand Prix attack (or 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5), how often does White get an improved Nimzo-Indian?  Fairly often.  But you won't find much instruction on Nimzo-Indian themes in a Grand Prix book, so you need to look elsewhere.

Where to look?  Well, general books like How to Reassess Your Chess will help, of course.  Shereshevsky wrote a two-volume series of books on typical late middlegame/endgame strategic themes called Mastering the Endgame.  Edmar Mednis wrote an excellent book on strategic themes in the closed games called Strategic Chess.  

If you want to play better when facing 1.d4, you need to study the closed games, there's just nothing else you can do about it.  And trust me, studying a general book like How to Reassess Your Chess will NOT be a waste of time just because it doesn't deal exclusively with your opening.  Strategic themes are tied much more closely between different openings than people think.  For instance, in the Gruenfeld, Ragozin QGD, French Winawer, and QID, a focal-point of Black's counterplay is often linked with the c4-square.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10778
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #15 - 07/12/10 at 00:20:39
Post Tools
Try Grooten too.
Play through a few dozen of games with the Classical Dutch to make sure you can apply this knowledge in this opening as well.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch/Bird - common amateur move
Reply #14 - 07/11/10 at 22:52:53
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 07/11/10 at 20:30:36:
Fromper wrote on 07/11/10 at 19:43:06:
The positional stuff can come later.

Don't think so. The better your positional understanding the more likely you get promising attacking positions. This is especially true when playing the Dutch.
That game by Eric the Red shows at least one thing nicely: when White makes positional concessions to parry Black's attack Black must be able to beat White on another front.

And this is exactly why I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the types of positions that come from the openings I play, as demonstrated by my starting this thread. Stigma hit the nail on the head when it comes to describing my method of positional study. I like studying general ideas and plans that come from my openings, not just memorizing specific move orders.

And it has worked for me - as I said, I've gone from 1300 to 1700 in two years as an adult. And here's the truly surprising part - I honestly think that I'm WORSE at tactics now than I was when I first broke 1400. I used to calculate deeper and see more clearly than I do now. Now, I know what to look for, I know how to set up positions that are better for me out of my openings, and I routinely blunder check for tactics 1-2 moves deep, but that's about it. This is why tactics are my primary focus in chess study right now - if I'm going to really improve, I need to get better at calculating.

Eventually, I will play over lots of master games in all openings, not just the ones I play. And I'll read books like the ones by Silman and others who deal with general positional play. But I'm not quite there yet.

--Fromper
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo