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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ? (Read 14016 times)
Daniel Boix Moreno
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #17 - 02/20/04 at 12:15:49
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Hi all!!!

I'm usually play Grünfeld (I enjoy it  Wink)

Maybe you try to play Kramnik's recomendation.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd Nd5 5.e4 Nc3 6.bc3 Bg7 7.Nf3 c5 and then 8.Bb5+ Nc6 (8...Nd7 is possible but white can get an safe adge) 9.O-O cd 10.cd O-O 11.Be3 Bg4 12.Bc6 bc6 13.Rc1 Qa5 14.Qe2

but after 14...Qb5! 15.Qb5 ab 15.Rc5 a6 16.Ne5 Be6= Estremera Panos - Boix, Barcelona 2002

e-mail:katobeat@hotmail.com
  
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Big Swede
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #16 - 01/20/04 at 11:22:30
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If I was to return to 1.d4 I think I'd be tempted to play something like 7.Bb5+

i.e:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 7.Bb5+!?

The games in my database look rather congenial for white, in my opinion.

Or have the recent books on the GI come up with something good for black?
  
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #15 - 01/20/04 at 08:42:08
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... but continue: 2...Nf6 3.c4 g6!!  Wink
  
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #14 - 10/11/03 at 04:19:51
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1.Nf3 d5! 2.d4!!--a dirty trick
  

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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #13 - 03/11/03 at 04:42:11
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It's an excellent question, that has obviously provoked some discussion.
There have been times when a certain line has been causing Black a hard time in the Grünfeld, but not in the last couple of years.
The 4 Bf4 lines and g3 lines by White are not that dangerous for Black if he learns some theory and I can't agree that Bf4, Rc1 and e3 offers only chances for White.
The Berliner stuff is in fact far from clear, so Polugaevsky's line is not by any means "simply better for White".
I suppose any tense variation where one knows the theory better than the opponent will create problems!

The main problem with the pure-Grünfeld is that after 1 Nf3 and 1 c4 White can manipulate his move order to avoid the opening altogether.
As correctly pointed out in the Forum, the line in the English with the early Qa4+ is annoying for Black.
So rather than play an inferior Grünfeld-English hybrid Black should be prepared to play a pure English or Reti as early as move one!
1 Nf3 d5! or 1 c4 e5! but now you need to switch to Tony Kosten's area of expertise!

I have to admit I don't have any great secrets up my sleeve against the Grünfeld either!
  
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #12 - 02/23/03 at 10:26:40
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  If you know your opponent plays the Grunfeld, I agree with the delay of d4.  Combined with g3 it is very hard to get the typical Grunfeld counterplay.  I have a devil of a time vs the English type positions when I play the Grunfeld.

  In the book "Opening for White according to Kramnik Vol 1" the line 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Qa4 is given as one of the options.  I think that Kramink's entire opening repertoire with 1.Nf3 is rather good.  He limits what Black can play and avoids some "Daring Defences".
  
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #11 - 02/23/03 at 06:40:37
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If you play against somebody who only plays the grunfeld one can try: 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 and now d5 is forced if black wants to play a grunfeld. then you play 4.cxd5 Nxd5 and now both 5.Qa4+ and 5.g3 promise white a slight edge. Since you dont play d4, black has trouble finding a target for his pieces.  8)
  
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Le Clown
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #10 - 02/23/03 at 03:56:11
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I've been a grunfeld player for almost 3 years but recently I've stop playing it because some lines didn't apeal to me.
More exactly, there is some lines in which black have significant difficulties for playing for a win.
If you want a relatively safe line in which black has few chances to win, i recommend 1.d4 Cf6 2.c4 g6 3.Cc3 d5 4.Cf3 Fg7 5.Ff4 0-0 6.Tc1 dxc4 ( there is other option but i don't believe in it) 7.e3! (7.e4 Fg4 or 7...b5!? gives black plenty of play) 7...Fe6 (maybe 7...c5!? is the way where black should look at) 8.Cg5! Fd5 9.e4 h6 10.exd5 hxg5 11.Fxg5 Cxd5 12.Fxc4 Cb6 13.Fb3 Cc6 14.Ce2 and, in my opinion, only white could manage to win such a position.
  
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Andy
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #9 - 02/21/03 at 08:45:55
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As a relatively new Grunfeld player, but someone who's had a little read of both Rowson's book and the more recent book by Nigel Davies on the defence, I've found the Fianchetto variations from White to be the most annoying to play against.  Once that g3 is played, it seems like lots of the fun in Black's game evaporates - personally I can't get along with Rowson's suggested alternatives to Black's 'turgid' response of ...c6 and ...d5, which is often what I end up adopting ....
In answer to an earlier post here about the 4.Bg5!? line, it should be noted that an immediate response of 4...Bg7 is quite effective at nullifying the threat. Perhaps because of this recent discovery, White ought to move order a bit more carefully and delay the Bg5 move until after Nf3.
That's my tuppence worth. I love the Grunfeld, but not sure if I'd want to play it a a higher level (should I ever achieve that!) - at my lowly level, (1600-ish, Blitz games online only at present) it seems to come as a surprise to most of my opponents. For example, I have yet to see the 'mainline', 8.Rb1, against the Exchange, in about a year of Grunfelds.  I rarely even get to play the Exchange. It's all Bf4s and Bg5s, or the fianchetto, or something cobbled together...... when I take a good look at the 8.Rb1 lines I wonder how well I'd actually cope with them, as after 12...Bg4 it looks like a tough position for Black to actually enjoy playing.  Maybe 9...b6 is a better response after 8.Rb1 0-0 9. Be2.
  
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #8 - 02/19/03 at 04:45:30
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I can heartily recommend the line with 4.Bf4, 5.e3 and 6.Rc1 (keeping the king's knight at home for the time being).  The princiapl point is that if Black plays 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.e3 0-0 6.Rc1 c5!? 7.dxc5, many Grunfeld players will semi-automatically play 7...Qa5, which is a normal tactic in this type of position.  However, in this specific position, because the Rc1 bolsters c3 and the Ng1 can still come to e2 to provide further support, White can play 8.cxd5! with (in my view) a clear advantage - Black has real trouble regaining the pawn or generating sufficient pressure to compensate.
Of course, Black does not have to play this: 7...Be6! is a good try, although most sources seem to think White can emerge with a slight plus, and it is certainly not necessarily the sort of position a Grunfeld player will relish playing.
Even better probably is to avoid 6...c5 and play 6...dxc4 whn 7.e4 b5! is very sharp and interesting - so maybe not what you are looking for - but then as others have said there is no way to avoid complications entirely if you are going to try for a significant advantage (not just in the Grunfeld, either, but in any opening).
  

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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #7 - 02/17/03 at 13:31:50
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Ah right!  Could you tell me which NICs please, so I can get hold of it for my own reference?

Thanks in advance

Regards

Hoppers
  

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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #6 - 02/16/03 at 16:02:01
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Hans Berliner did propose the improvement 13. Rc3 Qd6 14. h4 h5 (practically forced) 15. f3 and tried to prove that White was much better, however the analysis has now essentially been shown to lead to no advantage for White in a couple of NIC columns in the forum section. One move that is not mentioned in any sources I have seen that seems to present problems though is 15. ... e6 blockading the kingisde whilst providing the straightforward threat of Rd8 when Whites d-pawn will drop, in the long term White's position just looks ropey with no real co-ordination.
  
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #5 - 02/15/03 at 10:06:43
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With regards to safe (and quite possibly dangerous) line against the Grunfeld I feel the need to make an important point with regards to the line 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d5 4 cxd5 Nxd5 5 e4 Nxc3 6 bxc3 Bg7 7 Bc4 c5 8 Ne2 Nc6 9 Be3 0-0 10 Rc1 cxd4 11 cxd4 Qa5+ 12 Kf1 Qa3

Most sources just quote the game Kamsky-Anand here from their Las Palmas Candidates Match 0f 1994.

However very few sources that I know of devote any attention to 13. Rc3!?  Most texts either ignore it or quote such lines as 13...Qd6 14 f4 e5! or 14 14 h4 h5!

Hans Berliner, the ex correspondence World Champ once proclaimed Polugaevsky's line as winning, but he never looked at 12...Qa3  However it has been brought to my attention that he has published further detailed analysis on 13 Rc3!? which would be worth getting hold of as it must be a more critical move then 13 Qb3 (!)

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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #4 - 02/08/03 at 01:44:45
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  As a life long Grunfeld player, I will share some of my pet peeves.  I play the Grunfeld to get unbalanced positions.  If you don't like them, why play the Grunfeld?

  If it matches your style, one of the less exciting variations such as Bf4 or a g3 variation are annoying to a Grunfeld player.  If you want a full-blooded fight then the Exchange is the way to go.  I reccomend reading through Rowson's book on understanding the Grunfeld and choosing a line you like.

  My experience is that I am about the only Grunfeld player when I was in Texas and the same in New Jersey.  You could spend a lot of time on something with little payout.  This is one of the reasons I play it as so few others do.

Smiley
  
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #3 - 02/06/03 at 13:13:34
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Ive been playing the Grunfeld for the past two years, and mostly agree with what has been said so far, there really isn't a line that is safe that isn't completely boring and insipid. The only line that I can think of that I imagine could cause Black problems is Pelletier's choice,  a rare line which was written off in some books as harmless so most players probably wont be prepared for it,  but it actually contains a lot of venom. I don't much of the theory but if you look at some of his games I'm sure you'll be able to pick it up quite quickly:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Qb3!? and now the most common choice is Nb6 when Pelletier's 7. Bg5! is best. If Black does not respond very actively then you can play e4,  if he is accurate then you can just play e3 with a solid position with chances for an edge. According to Rowson black should play 6. ... Nxc3 but this is also fairly solid for White after 7. bxc3 followed by Nf3 e3 and Ba3.

Of course if you really want to bore your opponent to death then there's always the reverse tarrasch with 5. e3
  
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Flanker
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #2 - 02/04/03 at 17:19:47
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There really is no "safe" line in the Grunfeld that will give White an advantage.

I am a "Former" 1.d4 player, and against the Grunfeld, I've always found the following line to work best, but if Black knows the line, he can get equality out of it (though White's king is "FAIRLY" safe).

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.e4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bg7 (Or Black can play 6...c5.  In this line, basically Black's moves 6-9 involve ...c5, ...Nc6, ...Bg7, and ...0-0, though order really isn't important here) 7.Bc4 c5 8.Ne2 Nc6 9.Be3 0-0 10.Rc1 cxd4 11.cxd4 Qa5+ 12.Kf1 and now 12...Qa3! Gives Black full equality as White can't play f3 due to the loose bishop on e3 then.  Therefore ...Bg4 is a threat.  In response, White should play 13.Qb3, when Black has the choice between the rare 13...Qd6, or the most common, 13...Qxb3.  Play is equal, but the Queens are gone, and the attack is therefore reduced.

Now many players aren't familiar with the line, and don't play 12...Qa3.  Against moves like say, 12...Bd7, White starts using the h-file for an attack.  13.h4! intending h5 and hxg6.  This is not a very good plan if the Queens are gone, but otherwise, this attack can often be lethal for Black.  I actually just started taking up the Grunfeld again as Black, and I can tell you that against me, you'd get 12...Qa3, since I obviously know the correct line of play for Black.

But as your other responder said, the Grunfeld is dynamic.  You can't play a "Safe" line against the Grunfeld and expect any advantage.
  
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Re: Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
Reply #1 - 02/04/03 at 05:22:59
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Hi Cap,

this is not an easy question as the Gruenfeld is a very dynamic opening in which black always has counter chances (so if black has counter chances then white has chances !).

I would advise you to have a look at this (almost) forced line :

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bg5!? Ne4 5.cxd5!? Nxg5 6.h4 Ne4 7.Nxe4 Qxd5 8.Nc3 Qa5 9.Nf3 Bg7 10.Qa4! Qxa4 11.Nxa4 0-0 12.e3 and I think white enjoys a small advantage as long as black is not able to open the position with e5. White will now play Rc1 and Nc5 preventing the black knight to come to d7 in order to help the e5 freeing move.
  
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cap
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Grunfeld - Does anyone have a good line ?
02/03/03 at 19:14:16
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I am seeking everyone's advice here.  Does anyone have a good, solid, safe line FOR WHITE against the Grunfeld ?   I mean a line that gives a slight to medium plus without much risk and where white does not have to sacrifice a pawn.  For example, what would you play as White if Kasparov played the Grunfeld Defense against you ?

Perhaps, a person who plays the GRunfeld regularly might have some interesting ideas here ?

Help....
  
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