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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should I play the Philidor? (Read 22577 times)
basqueknight
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #17 - 11/26/05 at 01:46:59
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Afraid not. Even as a gambiteer who plays some ridiculous junk, I had a brief look at this, laughed and threw it away. Black seems to get one tempo for his central pawn, which is even worse than the Morra since he doesn't have the advantage of the move. If he wastes time getting the pawn back then white will have an edge; if he doesn't he'll be a pawn down. White is already castled, his kingside is secure, I see no compensation.

If I think it's junk, then it really must be bad...



even with white casteled i would say that he is far from the better position with all those pieces sitting on thier original squares! 

at the higest level i will admit that this doesnt take a lot of points but we are not at the highest level are we?

For the lower folk i would say its all about getting a position you understand more than your opponent. 

Thats what i go for and i am a smith morra player so maybe i am crazy but how many times has the average sicilian player seen the S-M otb in tournements in their life time? Probley not many same thing with the blackburne gambit. As a matter of fact i doubt many players have anything meaning full prepared for the main line philidor at the UIM crowd anyway.

So i would give any variation of it a shot.
  
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gurb5000
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #16 - 11/25/05 at 14:13:10
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One benefit of playing 1...d6 to get to the Philidor is that you don't need to learn something against the Kings Gambit, Vienna, Bishop's Opening and all the 2.d4 gambits.   

As some one who played the Philidor on and off for years I would say that my primary complaint with it was that it tended to be drawish.   I found very few people who enjoyed playing against it and even fewer who played the theoretically important lines, but I found it difficult to get an advantage against weaker players who just played cautiously against it.  I probably did best against equal or slightly higher rated players (my rating usually sat in the high 1700's or low 1800's) who tried to punish it. 

Over time I gravitated into the Center Counter because it offered many of the same benefits (slightly unusual, fairly easy to learn, and not something white players tend to study) but also offered a more unbalanced position and more winning chances against lower rated players.

These days there is a lot more theory readily available  for white players against both defenses so I can't recommend either as much as I once did - although that hasn't stopped me from playing either one.   
  
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JEH
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #15 - 11/25/05 at 11:10:31
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check out Romanishin's dvd no. 6
DVD 6: Rapid and Complete Opening Repertoire for the Tournament Player for Black. For lines against 1.e4 Roman recommends d6, Nf6 and e5. There is very little theory to remember.  Solid and active positions.  Recommended lines are safe active lines to get you into a comfortable middlegame.



Is that the 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 line? After 4. de, Black might be solid, but it doesn't seem active or comfortable to me.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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belaji
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #14 - 11/25/05 at 09:22:58
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Craig,

I don't play this either. The way I count tempi is something like this: after Black has moved, how many moves does it take White to connect his rooks and the same for Black. Subtract the numbers an viola! In this case it’s three for White and one for Black. I’d say Black has two tempi for the pawn here. I may even count the fact that Black’s rook is already on an open file (but Black may need to move Kb8 at some point as is the general case in castling queenside).

Thoughts?

Béla
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #13 - 11/25/05 at 07:27:46
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Afraid not. Even as a gambiteer who plays some ridiculous junk, I had a brief look at this, laughed and threw it away. Black seems to get one tempo for his central pawn, which is even worse than the Morra since he doesn't have the advantage of the move. If he wastes time getting the pawn back then white will have an edge; if he doesn't he'll be a pawn down. White is already castled, his kingside is secure, I see no compensation.

If I think it's junk, then it really must be bad...
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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basqueknight
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #12 - 11/24/05 at 22:51:38
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Thanks for your reply. The line looks interesting, but a bit dodgy. What compensation will Black get after White does Be2 and 0-0? I was looking for something a bit more solid! (I'm quite a stodgy player - my handle used to be caro fanatic before I changed it!)



Funny you should ask and I have a form of an answer from the same article from chess cafe. 

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 d6
3.d4 Bg4
4.dxe5 Nd7
5.exd6 Bxd6
6.Be2 Qe7
7. 0-0 0-0-0

This looks realatively decent the lead in dvelopment is no laughing matter and i would take black here. I am reasonably sure that intitiative lovers will agree.
  
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lost highway
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #11 - 11/24/05 at 08:53:03
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I was under the impression that 3...Nd7 was verging on unsound after 4.Bc4? I could be wrong here though, it's several years since I read Kosten's book on the opening and, in all honesty, I haven't really looked at it from either side (even though I can reach it as white and have played it via 1...d6 as black). My choice would be (and, on the one occasion, was) 3...Nf6.

I certainly do not advocate the Philidor.  It is very close to being a junk opening.   I only play against it, and I really don’t mind seeing it.  I don’t have any books about it.  Why bother?  However, white needs to be a little bit careful in the 3…Nd7 4.Bc4 variation because black can sometimes whip up an attack on the queenside.  For example:  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nd7 4. Bc4 Nb6 5. Bb3 a5 6. a3 exd4 7. Qxd4 a4 8. Ba2 Nf6 9. Nc3 Be7 10. Be3 O-O 11. Qd3 Nbd7 12. O-O-O c6 13. h4 b5 14. h5 h6 15. Bf4 Ng4 16. Qd2 Qb6 

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JEH
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #10 - 11/24/05 at 07:33:56
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I am looking for a line requiring minimal effort to learn but is quite good for Black against 1. e4.

Ah, the Holy Grail. I'd recommend sticking with the main line stuff. It'll be far better for you in the long run as you won't end up having to discard it! 

But if that doesn't appeal, I think 1. ...d5 is the best way to minimise theory, but that's a different forum. 

 



  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Reykjavik
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #9 - 11/24/05 at 07:30:54
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check out Romanishin's dvd no. 6
DVD 6: Rapid and Complete Opening Repertoire for the Tournament Player for Black. Based on his own games Roman recommends solid active lines to meet 1.e4, 1.d4, 1.c4 and 1.Nf3.  Your study time will be cut dramatically as Roman gives you the best and most solid responses for Black.  This DVD was designed for the player who does not want to spend a lot of time studying and still achieve good results.
For lines against 1.e4 Roman recommends d6, Nf6 and e5. There is very little theory to remember.  Solid and active positions.  Recommended lines are safe active lines to get you into a comfortable middlegame.

  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #8 - 11/24/05 at 04:27:30
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I was under the impression that 3...Nd7 was verging on unsound after 4.Bc4? I could be wrong here though, it's several years since I read Kosten's book on the opening and, in all honesty, I haven't really looked at it from either side (even though I can reach it as white and have played it via 1...d6 as black). My choice would be (and, on the one occasion, was) 3...Nf6.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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lost highway
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #7 - 11/23/05 at 18:41:59
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I am looking for a line requiring minimal effort to learn but is quite good for Black against 1. e4.

Minimal effort to learn, yes, but your second stipulation rules out the Philidor.  However, is you insist, then 3...Nd7.

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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #6 - 12/01/03 at 15:47:30
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If you ever see him playing online, FM Mark Noble employs the Philidor on a common basis...and a reversed form from the white side of the board.  (His handle on USCL is MNoble...don't know about other places.)  Perhaps you can watch or review some of his games to learn a thing or two about this opening.     Grin

NeX iRae
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #5 - 11/20/03 at 22:18:33
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After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 I think 4. Qxd4! is much better for White ie 4...Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. Bxc6 Bxc6 7. Nc3 Nf6 8. Bg5 Be7 9. O-O-O +/=
  
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Mike Thomas
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #4 - 07/24/03 at 23:54:04
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The problem with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 is that White gets an advantage with 4.dxe5 Nxe4 5.Qd5. If you want to play a solid Hanham set up try the move order 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5. White doesn't really profit by exchanging queens (there are games on ChessPublishing's site that show this), so after 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.a4 c6 you've got your Hanham set up  Wink
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #3 - 07/24/03 at 12:05:09
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Erm, if that's the case the Deferred Hanham is probably the best bet. Still, I think the philidor is dodgy and you'd be best off sticking with the Caro.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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