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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should I play the Philidor? (Read 22574 times)
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #32 - 04/05/06 at 00:01:19
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Hi all,

I go back to Topic about Philidor.
The Line 1.e4-e5 2.Nf3-d6 3.d4-Bg4(?!) 4.dxe5-Nd7
5.exd6-Bxd6 6.Nc3-Ngf6 7. Bw2-Qe7 8.Nd4(Nd2!?)-Bxe2 9.Qxe2-Bb4 10.00-Bxc3 11.xc3 - 00 12.f3-Qc5 13.Bd2 with clear advantage for White. The Pawns are doubled , but still an extra Pawn. His further Play should be connected with using his pawn majority on the Kingside. ( Opening according to Anand Vol.1)

Questions?
  
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JEH
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #31 - 11/30/05 at 05:05:54
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I suspect JEH was thinking of 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. f3, when that 3...d5 stuff is more reasonable.


Yes, you're right. I will go and stand in the corner. Tongue
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #30 - 11/29/05 at 12:12:48
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But 3...d5 4. e5 Nfd7 runs into 5. e6 (large White advantage), and surely 4...Ng8 is comfortably better for White as well.  One critical line is 3...e5 4. c3 d5 5. de Nxe4; maybe some Petroff or Open Ruy experience would be helpful there for Black ...

I suspect JEH was thinking of 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. f3, when that 3...d5 stuff is more reasonable.
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #29 - 11/29/05 at 11:42:52
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White can choose another interesting transposition:
1.e4,d6 2.d4,Nf6 3.Bd3 with the intention f3-c4 transposing into a kings-Indian set-up (or perhaps 3...e5 4.c3 a modern defense: black is practically forced to fianchetto his f8-bishop)


Or Black can play 3. ...d5 with 4. e5 Nd7 heading for a Frenchoid or 4. ... Ng8 heading for a Leprechaun defence.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #28 - 11/29/05 at 11:17:50
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White can choose another interesting transposition:
1.e4,d6 2.d4,Nf6 3.Bd3 with the intention f3-c4 transposing into a kings-Indian set-up (or perhaps 3...e5 4.c3 a modern defense: black is practically forced to fianchetto his f8-bishop)
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #27 - 11/29/05 at 00:44:13
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Personally I normally only play 1...d6 against 1.d4 and use other opening against 1.e4.  Unfortunately 2.e4 is a perfectly valid response after 1d4 d6 and what I would (and do) play if I were white.  The good news in that case is you don't have to worry about 1e4 and 2.f4.  The bad news is you still have to decide if you want to play a Pirc or a Philidor.  At my level, I doubt that many d4 players are also comfortable playing e4 so it is rarely a problem for me.  When I have faced it I head towards the Philidor.

Regarding 1.e4 d6  2.f4..., I have played against it a number of times in casual games but never had it played against me in a rated game.  It usually leads to an interesting position but I am not sure if it is any better or worse than the more usual white responses to the Pirc.  I would say the same thing about 2...d5!?/?!.  Whether Black's lose of tempo makes up for the odd looking f4 in a Center Counter like position is something that I haven't really decided on.  In a rated game I would probably play it just to see what happens and because I personally play better in unusual positions.
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #26 - 11/28/05 at 17:28:56
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Tater, I'm not saying that 2.f4 is dismal for black by any means, but the point is that most people play 1...d6 with a view to the Philidor, certainly at club level, to avoid the Vienna/KG and various other white deviations to 2.Nf3. Further, not everyone plays the GPA/Austrian/KG complex, so 2.f4 is not to everyone's taste. Even further, at IM/GM level (where you no doubt get your statistics from your database that 2.d4 is far more popular), players of the white pieces would be more than happy to face the philidor and I doubt that many, if any, titled players would play 1...d6 because they were afraid of (or didn't have the time to learn anything against) the King's Gambit. 

However, at club level the likelyhood is that the majority of people are playing 1...d6 hoping for a philidor where white's deviations have been cut out. Still, many people might choose to tread the path of the philidor (like myself) with 2.d4, but the point is that very few of the people at my level who play 1...d6 are prepared for even one of the GPA/KGD/Pirc, let alone the scandinavian minus a tempo. Add to the fact that all of these lines (especially the Pirc Austrian) are sharp and complex, and at club level you'll find 2.f4 is a great weapon. 

Also, to my knowledge 4.Bg5 is the most critical line of the Pirc at the moment, and while the Austrian is also critical, as far as I'm aware black's resources are enough. However, there's a huge amount of theory which needs to be memorised on the Austrian, and it's unlikely that anyone other than a Pirc player would be sufficiently prepared against someone who plays the Austrian regularly. And if black wants to take on the GPA unprepared, then good luck to them - from what I remember GMs tried to do this in the 80s, and the GPA scored a huge plus for white.

As for the BH against fritz 9, I would imagine I could get Fritz and family to play most things against me and I wouldn't have an advantage 99% of the time by move 20. That's more due to the 500+ point rating difference between me than the value of any opening, however. If you're going to play opposition which you outgrade by 500 points, feel free to play this opening. If you're playing an equal-strength player with this opening, most times you will lose. Badly.

Regards, 
Craig


hrm. well, i still don't see why learning the pirc would be more work than learning the vienna, bishop's, and KG, or why you would have to know anything about the GP to defend against the austrian attack, but whatever. both routes seem like about equal prospects and equal work to me, which makes me wonder why you'd prefer one move order so heavily over the other.

i don't use databases for much of anything other than looking for new ideas or just enjoying games. its just based on my own personal experiences that i say 1...d6 draws out d4 much more often than e5 followed by d6. if someone has actually gone to the trouble of preparing the BH, they'd like to avoid that boring Bc4 line, which really isn't bad at all for white despite of its lame scholasticness.

as far as the fritz comment goes, 500 ratings points shouldn't make much difference. your claim is that the BH is +/-. if that's true, any Aclass/expert on up should be able to make it to move 20 with an edge nomatter who they are playing. however, the fact of the matter is that fritz scores pretty well with the black side of that gambit when playing against itself, and i'm pretty sure that fritz isn't rated 500 points higher than fritz.

i understand your assessment of the BH perfectly, because mine used to be the same. yeah, black is up a little bit of time, but it looks as if there's just not much life to the position at all, and its a simple matter of trading down and cashing in for white. from what i have seen recently, that turns out to be an inaccurate assessment though.

the BH is somewhat unique, because its really more apositional than just about any other opening. by apositional i don't mean tactical, i simply mean that the game is decided almost purely by piece play, and that pawn structure isn't much of a factor. 3/4 the central pawns go in the first few moves, and its just a black hole in the center of the board for the rest of the game.

i have found, that in positions like these, often times newer engines can find improvements to old analysis, because the positions are so geared towards how these programs work. sometimes the new findings are good, and sometimes they are bad. just look at what happened to the leonhardt variation of the latvian gambit, which is very similar in that piece play dominates. it went from being not so highly regarded or common to being an outright refutation to the latvian. 

there are a lot of old lines that have been gathering dust for a long time that are deserving of a second look now that means of analysis have been refined so much. don't be like the guy that was getting under your skin not so long ago by dismissing things you haven't taken a look at in a long time.
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #25 - 11/28/05 at 08:45:12
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CraigEvans wrote : 4...Qd6 would imply a fianchetto line, where f4 would no doubt be useful

Have to contradict you in this: the fianchetto becomes viable there is a pawn on f4. Do you remember the Bronstein variation of the Scandinavian (Qd8 & g6, Bg7) ? It was put out of use by Fisher with the moves d4 & Bf4, intending Be5... Well, 'thanks' to that pawn on f4 this manoeuvre is unavailable... and that is the basis for the d6-d5-idea in the 'accelerated' Gurgenidze and related lines.
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #24 - 11/28/05 at 08:13:25
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Michael, I would imagine anyone playing 2.f4 would be more than happy with an austrian attack, and I personally think that 2.f4 d5!? 3.Nf3 leads to an improved version of the tennison/bryntse gambits discussed elsewhere, while I don't see that f4 is really such a bad move anyway - the key is to use it in conjunction with your set-up. In this case, the obvious set-up is to put the bishop on c4 and look to play f5, prising open the a2-g8 diagonal. It's a very similar plan to one used in another gambit I play: 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.Nf3 de 4.Ng5 Nf6 5.Bc4 e6 and white will look to castle k-side then open the f-file and the same diagonal with a quick f4-f5. While most people will view f4 as a weakening move, there's no reason why this is the case, and as long as it's used in conjunction with a plan, it should offer white an advantage.

A sample line: 1.e4 d6 2.f4 d5 3.ed Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qa5 [4...Qd6 would imply a fianchetto line, where f4 would no doubt be useful. 4...Qd8 just looks bad.] 5.Bc4 Nf6 6.Nf3 e6 7.Qe2 [threatening f5 straight away] and white should be good. Note that this is off the top of my head and in no way represents best play, but just a sample idea.

Tater, I'm not saying that 2.f4 is dismal for black by any means, but the point is that most people play 1...d6 with a view to the Philidor, certainly at club level, to avoid the Vienna/KG and various other white deviations to 2.Nf3. Further, not everyone plays the GPA/Austrian/KG complex, so 2.f4 is not to everyone's taste. Even further, at IM/GM level (where you no doubt get your statistics from your database that 2.d4 is far more popular), players of the white pieces would be more than happy to face the philidor and I doubt that many, if any, titled players would play 1...d6 because they were afraid of (or didn't have the time to learn anything against) the King's Gambit. 

However, at club level the likelyhood is that the majority of people are playing 1...d6 hoping for a philidor where white's deviations have been cut out. Still, many people might choose to tread the path of the philidor (like myself) with 2.d4, but the point is that very few of the people at my level who play 1...d6 are prepared for even one of the GPA/KGD/Pirc, let alone the scandinavian minus a tempo. Add to the fact that all of these lines (especially the Pirc Austrian) are sharp and complex, and at club level you'll find 2.f4 is a great weapon. 

Also, to my knowledge 4.Bg5 is the most critical line of the Pirc at the moment, and while the Austrian is also critical, as far as I'm aware black's resources are enough. However, there's a huge amount of theory which needs to be memorised on the Austrian, and it's unlikely that anyone other than a Pirc player would be sufficiently prepared against someone who plays the Austrian regularly. And if black wants to take on the GPA unprepared, then good luck to them - from what I remember GMs tried to do this in the 80s, and the GPA scored a huge plus for white.

As for the BH against fritz 9, I would imagine I could get Fritz and family to play most things against me and I wouldn't have an advantage 99% of the time by move 20. That's more due to the 500+ point rating difference between me than the value of any opening, however. If you're going to play opposition which you outgrade by 500 points, feel free to play this opening. If you're playing an equal-strength player with this opening, most times you will lose. Badly.

Regards, 
Craig
  

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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #23 - 11/28/05 at 06:41:29
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[rant mode]
Following this thread has brought back some fond memories, both of the utter tripe I used to play (and still do in 1 minute games), and also of the folly of some of these move-order transpositions.

The point is that, if you play the Austrian attack/GPA (which many, many people do at club level), then 1...d6 does not prevent a KG by any means, at least not favourably. 1.e4 d6 2.f4 seems the logical way of playing the position, since after ...d6 black either has to accept a transposition into a KGD, an Austrian Pirc, or else a GPA sicilian where black has committed to ...d6 and will therefore have to spend an extra tempo on the ...d5 thrust which has proven so effective to meet the GPA. Further, if play runs along the lines of 1.e4 d6 2.f4 c5, white can also consider 3.Nf3 intending 4.d4 with a transposition to the open sicilian, albeit where he has committed to f4 a little early. However, since f4 is playable in pretty much every open sicilian, I can't imagine this would be too much of a hindrance, whereas black, trying to avoid this KG, has now got to learn heavy theoretical lines to (at least) three other openings. Congratulations there, you've just bluffed your way into a nightmare.

With all the analysis we've done on the forum, it makes me wonder why so many people are still so desperate to avoid the KG at all costs, especially to play something like the Philidor which is considered inferior for black anyway. And a player who plays the KG probably plays an early f4 in most other openings, so 1...d6 is no more than a transpositional device after 2.f4, and black has to learn one hell of a lot more to play it than white (since white will be playing it with a transposition to a line he already knows in mind, whereas black will have had his bluff called).

So please, I beg all you philidor players, keep on trying the 1...d6 move order! 

As for the blackburne-hartlaub gambit, how the heck can you say black is equal, or close to equal?? Even if black has some semblance of compensation for the pawn (and, in all honesty, I doubt he does), he is a central pawn down for very little, and this equals +- in my opinion. The compensation seems to be getting his bishop to d6 a tempo, and since white can look to play Nc3-b5 or Nc3-e4 to hit this thing anyway, it's hardly a worry. Or white can adopt a Be2, Nf3, Nbd2, O-O position where there are no threats with Bxh2, then Re1, Nf1-e3 etc. Yes, just moves with no variations including black's moves, but the fact is that black has nothing particularly forcing which can force white's hand, and any wild kingside lunge can easily be answered since there is not one weakness in white's position, and not even a real lead in development for black.

The reason the morra is effective and, imho, playable - white already starts a tempo up. Add to this that 1...c5 doesn't in any way aid black's development, after 2.d4 cd 3.c3 dc 4.Nc3 white has gained extra tempi, and his pieces are now all free to develop. However, black needs at least two more pawn moves to allow his bishops to move, thus acquiring more tempi. The morra aims to directly show that 1...c5 is a wasted move.
In the BH, however, 1.d4 e5 2.de d6 3.ed Bxd6 (if I'm thinking of the right opening) and white is only one tempo down, since he can already develop his knights and the c1 bishop. Further he only needs one pawn move to develop the f1 bishop (my preference would be g3 and Bg2, since now that Bd6 is biting on granite), and black seems to only have hopes and dreams for the pawn. He doesn't even have any tactical shots based on the open f-file, which is why I'd prefer the Soller Gambit, or even the Englund gambit proper, over this stuff anyday. 

If I ever thought my opponents would play such utter garbage, in blitz, OTB or in correspondence, even at my meagre levels, I would play 1.d4 in a heartbeat. Even as a card-carrying member of the gambit club, I can not condone this stuff and, unless you're looking to play 1 minute games (which, you should bear in mind, is what Mr McGrew usually uses them for), I would not expect this opening to bring you a particularly good score. At any level. Ever.

Seriously folks, go back to an early Qh5 a la Nakamura. It's much better. Grin

[/rant mode]


i can't speak for anyone else, but i have never played 1...d6 to avoid the KG. as i said above, one reason i might play that move is simply because you get d4 out of white a lot more, as opposed to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 which is not much fun at all. 

if 1.e4 d6 2.f4 is so dismal for black, then why is it that 2.d4 has always been so much more popular than 2.f4? i mean, to hear you tell it, black can do no better than defending against the austrian attack, so why wouldn't white allow him to make that choice since the austrian is his strongest plan after 1.d4 anyway? i'm pretty sure black isn't in trouble after one move  Roll Eyes

as for the B-H, i don't like it, and i don't play it. all i'm saying is that its better than it looks. i used to feel the same way as you do about it until i saw how much the newer engines could squeeze out of the extra time. try setting up the position against fritz 9 and see how many times you can make it to move 15 or 20 and still hold an advantage. i guarantee you that its harder to do than you think.
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #22 - 11/28/05 at 05:50:32
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Yrjola and Tella's famous repertoire book offers (pp. 235--6) some more ways for Black to meet 1 e4 d6 2 f4. They suggest either 2 ...Nf6 3 d3 (3 Nc3 g6 aiming for a Pirc) e5 (or 3 ...g6 4 Nf3 Bg7 5 g3 c5 with a Closed Sicilian), or else 2 ...d5!? 3 e5 (3 ed?! Nf6 or 3 ...Qd5) c5, the loss of tempo being offset by the f4 weakness.
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #21 - 11/28/05 at 05:11:08
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[rant mode]
Following this thread has brought back some fond memories, both of the utter tripe I used to play (and still do in 1 minute games), and also of the folly of some of these move-order transpositions.

The point is that, if you play the Austrian attack/GPA (which many, many people do at club level), then 1...d6 does not prevent a KG by any means, at least not favourably. 1.e4 d6 2.f4 seems the logical way of playing the position, since after ...d6 black either has to accept a transposition into a KGD, an Austrian Pirc, or else a GPA sicilian where black has committed to ...d6 and will therefore have to spend an extra tempo on the ...d5 thrust which has proven so effective to meet the GPA. Further, if play runs along the lines of 1.e4 d6 2.f4 c5, white can also consider 3.Nf3 intending 4.d4 with a transposition to the open sicilian, albeit where he has committed to f4 a little early. However, since f4 is playable in pretty much every open sicilian, I can't imagine this would be too much of a hindrance, whereas black, trying to avoid this KG, has now got to learn heavy theoretical lines to (at least) three other openings. Congratulations there, you've just bluffed your way into a nightmare.

With all the analysis we've done on the forum, it makes me wonder why so many people are still so desperate to avoid the KG at all costs, especially to play something like the Philidor which is considered inferior for black anyway. And a player who plays the KG probably plays an early f4 in most other openings, so 1...d6 is no more than a transpositional device after 2.f4, and black has to learn one hell of a lot more to play it than white (since white will be playing it with a transposition to a line he already knows in mind, whereas black will have had his bluff called).

So please, I beg all you philidor players, keep on trying the 1...d6 move order! 

As for the blackburne-hartlaub gambit, how the heck can you say black is equal, or close to equal?? Even if black has some semblance of compensation for the pawn (and, in all honesty, I doubt he does), he is a central pawn down for very little, and this equals +- in my opinion. The compensation seems to be getting his bishop to d6 a tempo, and since white can look to play Nc3-b5 or Nc3-e4 to hit this thing anyway, it's hardly a worry. Or white can adopt a Be2, Nf3, Nbd2, O-O position where there are no threats with Bxh2, then Re1, Nf1-e3 etc. Yes, just moves with no variations including black's moves, but the fact is that black has nothing particularly forcing which can force white's hand, and any wild kingside lunge can easily be answered since there is not one weakness in white's position, and not even a real lead in development for black.

The reason the morra is effective and, imho, playable - white already starts a tempo up. Add to this that 1...c5 doesn't in any way aid black's development, after 2.d4 cd 3.c3 dc 4.Nc3 white has gained extra tempi, and his pieces are now all free to develop. However, black needs at least two more pawn moves to allow his bishops to move, thus acquiring more tempi. The morra aims to directly show that 1...c5 is a wasted move.
In the BH, however, 1.d4 e5 2.de d6 3.ed Bxd6 (if I'm thinking of the right opening) and white is only one tempo down, since he can already develop his knights and the c1 bishop. Further he only needs one pawn move to develop the f1 bishop (my preference would be g3 and Bg2, since now that Bd6 is biting on granite), and black seems to only have hopes and dreams for the pawn. He doesn't even have any tactical shots based on the open f-file, which is why I'd prefer the Soller Gambit, or even the Englund gambit proper, over this stuff anyday. 

If I ever thought my opponents would play such utter garbage, in blitz, OTB or in correspondence, even at my meagre levels, I would play 1.d4 in a heartbeat. Even as a card-carrying member of the gambit club, I can not condone this stuff and, unless you're looking to play 1 minute games (which, you should bear in mind, is what Mr McGrew usually uses them for), I would not expect this opening to bring you a particularly good score. At any level. Ever.

Seriously folks, go back to an early Qh5 a la Nakamura. It's much better. Grin

[/rant mode]
  

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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #20 - 11/27/05 at 23:34:56
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bk, if you like playing this gambit, i would definately recommend 1...d6 move order for the simple fact that you'll get white to play d4 in a much higher percentage of games. also, if you see something you like, you can always play c5 or the pirc instead of e5. 

one nice thing about that gambit is that not only can you play it against e4, but you can also play it against d4 with either e5/d6 or d6/e5. of course, going the second route can lead to a lot of other possibilities if white so chooses.
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #19 - 11/27/05 at 23:09:53
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Tim Mcgrew Did anther gambit article on that line as well. Its called going fishing. Dig it up and ya might find somthing to keep the boredom from setting in!
  
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Re: Should I play the Philidor?
Reply #18 - 11/26/05 at 03:38:01
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the blackburne-hartlaub gambit is really hard to play, but my opinion of it has gone up a lot since watching fritz 9 play out the position. in my games, fritz actually has a better score with the black pieces than the white. that makes sense though, as it is a line that sort of matches the play style of machines.

i have tried this opening a few times in the past, but it just seems to me like if you're good enough to play it, you're good enough that you should be playing something else. there's some comp there, but no concrete path or theme or means of forcing white's hand, so the onus of accuracy is much heavier on black. i believe that in theory it is an equal, or close to equal position, but that white's practical chances are much better than black's.

as far as the phildor's in general, i agree with the guy above. its not bad, but its kind of disappointing to play, because most of your opponents won't really put it to the test. after facing 3.Bc4 enough times, you tire of it pretty quickly.
  
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