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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57-C59: The Fried Liver Attack (Read 43411 times)
Master Om
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #42 - 04/20/11 at 15:12:05
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SWJediknight wrote on 07/07/10 at 22:55:29:
Remis_Aman wrote on 06/22/05 at 22:04:57:
Dear chessfriends,

I'm planning to do a detailed notes on the Fried Liver Attack {ECO C57}. Do you have any further moves suggestion (or from references like ECO Volume C, 4th edition esp.) to make one of this lines below esp. clear?

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Nf6
4. Ng5 d5
5. exd5 Nxd5?! 
6. Nxf7!? Kxf7
7. Qf3+ Ke6
8. Nc3 Ncb4!
9. Qe4 c6: 
10. a3 Na6 11. d4 Nac7 12. Bf4 (12.O-O Kf7 13.dxe5 Be6 unclear; 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14. O-O+ Ke8 unclear e.g. 15.Qf3 Qh4; 12.Qxe5+?! Kf7 13.O-O Be6 14.Ne4 Qd7) 12. Kf7 13. Bxe5 (13.dxe5 Be6 14.O-O-O Qe7 =; 13.O-O-O!?) 13. Be6 14. O-O (14.O-O-O?! Qg5+ 15.f4 Nxc3 16.Qf3 Qg6 17.Qxc3 Nd5 18.Qb3 Nb6 19.Bxe6+ Qxe6 =+) 14. Bd6 unclear;

Any help on this is greatly appreciated. thanks.



There's some info in this thread here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1269280756/30

Master_Om controversially claimed that Black was better or winning in all lines based on hard computer analysis, but most of the rest of us (myself included) reached similar conclusions to those in the quote above.  

A short summary of the improvements for both sides: after 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+, if 14...Ke8 then I prefer White, but after Master_Om's suggestion 14...Kg8 I can't offer any advance on "unclear".  In the line 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6, 14.0-0 Nf6! leaves Black with an edge, but White can deviate with 14.Qf3+ with similar lines to those following 12.f4.

Interesting that Conquistador suggests 9.Bb3 as this is Fritz's first choice and an option that none of us considered in the other thread.  I'll have to take a closer look at it when I have more time.

Re. 5...Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3, my impression is that it's probably just += with best play but that Black has to walk a tightrope to reach it.  Again I've seen this discussed elsewhere on the forum.



Controversial ????
Then Its time to post my analysis I have been running. lets see if this is controversial again.
  
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Schroeder
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #41 - 04/20/11 at 11:18:49
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Quote:
My first impression, without using any engine, is that White should investigate positional solutions such as 11 cxd4 exd3 12 0-0 ...


This has been played in two corr games recently. To me it looks as if 11 cxd4 exd3 12 0-0 Qf6 (as played in Pott - Tsirakovsky) gives Black a good game.





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« Last Edit: 04/20/11 at 13:39:02 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Phil Adams
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #40 - 04/05/11 at 17:49:08
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Lwolf123 wrote on 04/05/11 at 00:20:32:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3 b5 8.Bd3 h6 

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9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.Bxe4 Qe7 12.Nd2 Nc2+ 13.Kd1 Bf5 14.Bxc2 Bg4+ 15.Nf3 Nxc3+ 16.bxc3 O-O-O+ 17.Bd2 Bxf3+ 18.gxf3 Qd7 19.Ke2 Qxd2+ 20.Kf1 Bc5 

I've been looking at these lines recently and playing them on ICC for fun as Black. I've yet to find a line that gives White a clear advantage. On the other hand, I've found several lines where Black has to play a series of not so obvious only moves. Not sure I'd play this OTB yet, but it's still fun. I think a lot of White opponents lose respect for me as soon as I play 5..Nxd5. They're checking history etc to see if I just started or something.

No doubt though, Phil's 8..Be7 is a bit of a lemon. I assumed he was using a computer to check the lines, not sure how that move got through.


Thanks for this. I analysed 8...Be7 because it seemed a logical developing move. I now accept that 8...h6 is much better and leads to fascinating complications. I had dismissed it because of 9 Qh5 but your line 9...hxg5! 10.Qxh8 e4! certainly calls that into question. 

If I find anything convincing for White I shall get back to you. My first impression, without using any engine, is that White should investigate positional solutions such as 11 cxd4 exd3 12 0-0, and 9 Ne4 Nc6 10 Bxb5.
  
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Lwolf123
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #39 - 04/05/11 at 00:20:32
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3 b5 8.Bd3 h6 

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9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.Bxe4 Qe7 12.Nd2 Nc2+ 13.Kd1 Bf5 14.Bxc2 Bg4+ 15.Nf3 Nxc3+ 16.bxc3 O-O-O+ 17.Bd2 Bxf3+ 18.gxf3 Qd7 19.Ke2 Qxd2+ 20.Kf1 Bc5 

I've been looking at these lines recently and playing them on ICC for fun as Black. I've yet to find a line that gives White a clear advantage. On the other hand, I've found several lines where Black has to play a series of not so obvious only moves. Not sure I'd play this OTB yet, but it's still fun. I think a lot of White opponents lose respect for me as soon as I play 5..Nxd5. They're checking history etc to see if I just started or something.

No doubt though, Phil's 8..Be7 is a bit of a lemon. I assumed he was using a computer to check the lines, not sure how that move got through.
  
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #38 - 04/04/11 at 10:58:58
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With best play it probably transposes to the critical 11.d4 line: 11.0-0 Nac7 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5+ Kg8 14.d4 Be6 (the same position as after 11.d4 Nac7 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+ Kg8).  Fritz 10's openings book only gives 12.Re1, which is worse after 12...Kf7: 13.d4 (13.Qxe5 Bd6 =+) 13...exd4 14.Qf4+ Kg8 15.Qxd4 Qf6 =+ (although White still retains some attacking chances).
  
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #37 - 04/04/11 at 09:52:15
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In the Fried Liver Attack, after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ Ke6 8. Nc3 Ncb4 9. Qe4 c6 10. a3 Na6 most (if not all) sources I've seen continue with 11.d4 without considering any alternatives. 

To me, however 11.0-0!? might look like a possible improvement to this currently hard pressed line of the Fried Liver. 

If any one out there have any experience with this or know about previous analysis on it, I'd be grateful to learn about it!
  
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #36 - 07/30/10 at 10:34:41
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sloughter wrote on 07/30/10 at 01:34:18:
nexirae wrote on 12/24/03 at 11:19:30:
I'll tell ya right now why the Fried Liver is almost never seen anymore...

Nxd5 lines have become so rare, not because of the Fried Liver but because of Morphy and Fischer's favorite, the Lolli attack.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4!  

This move saves Nxf7 for later, say after exd4 O-O Be7 Nxf7! wins.  There is no need to sac the knight right away...black can hold his own in the Fried Liver.  In the Lolli though...not really.  Masters don't play Nxd5 anymore because of the Lolli, so why not invest some research into it?

Also, one more subtlety I thought I'd bring up...if you dread the Na5 lines like I do, save Ng5 for another move.  I prefer 4.d4! and will play a Perreux variation if it doesn't go back into a Lolli.  This move order effectively eliminates the Na5 line.  E.g., 4.d4 exd4 5.Ng5!

Someone on here posted this site already, but:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/perreux/index.html



NeX iRae

P.S. Get off Yahoo!  That site's worthless...check out USCL, FICS, ICC just to name a few.  Yahoo is just filled with cheaters and people who don't know how to play...ugh...


Dan Heisman, in a the July 2010 isse of Chess Life that even though White wins a piece after 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4!! & even though White wins a piece, Black is fine. He gives the following analysis: 7.c3 b5 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.cxd4 Qxg2 10.Rf1 Bb4ch 11.Nc3 f6 12.Qf3 Qxf3 13.Nxf3 Bg4 with excellent compensation.


We've been here before (sigh).

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1155593698

After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 Nxd5 6 d4! Nxd4 7.c3 b5!? is a good try, but according to the analysis I published here in November 2008 8. Bd3! keeps White on top.

Does Heisman mention this?
  
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sloughter
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #35 - 07/30/10 at 01:39:45
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SWJediknight wrote on 07/07/10 at 22:55:29:
Remis_Aman wrote on 06/22/05 at 22:04:57:
Dear chessfriends,

I'm planning to do a detailed notes on the Fried Liver Attack {ECO C57}. Do you have any further moves suggestion (or from references like ECO Volume C, 4th edition esp.) to make one of this lines below esp. clear?

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Nf6
4. Ng5 d5
5. exd5 Nxd5?! 
6. Nxf7!? Kxf7
7. Qf3+ Ke6
8. Nc3 Ncb4!
9. Qe4 c6: 
10. a3 Na6 11. d4 Nac7 12. Bf4 (12.O-O Kf7 13.dxe5 Be6 unclear; 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14. O-O+ Ke8 unclear e.g. 15.Qf3 Qh4; 12.Qxe5+?! Kf7 13.O-O Be6 14.Ne4 Qd7) 12. Kf7 13. Bxe5 (13.dxe5 Be6 14.O-O-O Qe7 =; 13.O-O-O!?) 13. Be6 14. O-O (14.O-O-O?! Qg5+ 15.f4 Nxc3 16.Qf3 Qg6 17.Qxc3 Nd5 18.Qb3 Nb6 19.Bxe6+ Qxe6 =+) 14. Bd6 unclear;

Any help on this is greatly appreciated. thanks.



There's some info in this thread here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1269280756/30

Master_Om controversially claimed that Black was better or winning in all lines based on hard computer analysis, but most of the rest of us (myself included) reached similar conclusions to those in the quote above.  

A short summary of the improvements for both sides: after 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+, if 14...Ke8 then I prefer White, but after Master_Om's suggestion 14...Kg8 I can't offer any advance on "unclear".  In the line 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6, 14.0-0 Nf6! leaves Black with an edge, but White can deviate with 14.Qf3+ with similar lines to those following 12.f4.

Interesting that Conquistador suggests 9.Bb3 as this is Fritz's first choice and an option that none of us considered in the other thread.  I'll have to take a closer look at it when I have more time.

Re. 5...Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3, my impression is that it's probably just += with best play but that Black has to walk a tightrope to reach it.  Again I've seen this discussed elsewhere on the forum.


I gave 9.Bb3 in the Chess.com forum as well. Here is the possible continuation: 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3ch Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.Bb3 c6 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Be7 13.O-O Rf8 14.Qe4 +/=
  
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sloughter
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #34 - 07/30/10 at 01:34:18
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nexirae wrote on 12/24/03 at 11:19:30:
I'll tell ya right now why the Fried Liver is almost never seen anymore...

Nxd5 lines have become so rare, not because of the Fried Liver but because of Morphy and Fischer's favorite, the Lolli attack.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4!  

This move saves Nxf7 for later, say after exd4 O-O Be7 Nxf7! wins.  There is no need to sac the knight right away...black can hold his own in the Fried Liver.  In the Lolli though...not really.  Masters don't play Nxd5 anymore because of the Lolli, so why not invest some research into it?

Also, one more subtlety I thought I'd bring up...if you dread the Na5 lines like I do, save Ng5 for another move.  I prefer 4.d4! and will play a Perreux variation if it doesn't go back into a Lolli.  This move order effectively eliminates the Na5 line.  E.g., 4.d4 exd4 5.Ng5!

Someone on here posted this site already, but:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/perreux/index.html



NeX iRae

P.S. Get off Yahoo!  That site's worthless...check out USCL, FICS, ICC just to name a few.  Yahoo is just filled with cheaters and people who don't know how to play...ugh...


Dan Heisman, in a the July 2010 isse of Chess Life that even though White wins a piece after 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4!! & even though White wins a piece, Black is fine. He gives the following analysis: 7.c3 b5 8.Bxd5 Qxd5 9.cxd4 Qxg2 10.Rf1 Bb4ch 11.Nc3 f6 12.Qf3 Qxf3 13.Nxf3 Bg4 with excellent compensation.
  
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #33 - 07/08/10 at 19:43:20
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I don't see Black's advantage after 14.Qe4 Qd6 15.Qxh7 Bf6 16.Re1 Kd7 17.dxe5.
But I prefer 14.Qg3 exd4 15.Qxg7 Bf6 16.Qxh7 Kd6 17.Bf4+ Kc6 18.c4 (when attacking, open lines and diagonals against the enemy king) dxc3 19.Rad1 Be6 20.bxc3 Nc5 21.Rfe1 Re8 22.c4 (same principle; 22.Rxe6 is worth looking at as well) d4 23.Qh5 and Black has a hard time.
  
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #32 - 07/08/10 at 17:26:47
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Silicon says that black is still holding after 9.Bb3.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.Bb3 c6 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Be7 13.0-0 Rf8 14.Qg3 and now:

Instead of 14...Kf7 as I said, silicon thinks that black can get away with grabbing the pawn.  It looks risky, but black seems to have a solid advantage here.

14...exd4 15.Qxg7 Bf6 16.Qxh7 Kd6

A possible improvement could be 14.Qe4, although after 14...Qd6, black has the advantage once more.

14.Qe4 Qd6 15.Qxh7 Bf6
  
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #31 - 07/08/10 at 08:22:49
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Another source is an e-book of computer-aided analysis from (now-FM) Dan Heisman. I don't have it, so I am not sure how it addresses the line in question. Here's the link:

http://www.chesscentral.com/Fried_Liver_and_Lolli_p/426535.htm
  
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #30 - 07/07/10 at 22:55:29
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Remis_Aman wrote on 06/22/05 at 22:04:57:
Dear chessfriends,

I'm planning to do a detailed notes on the Fried Liver Attack {ECO C57}. Do you have any further moves suggestion (or from references like ECO Volume C, 4th edition esp.) to make one of this lines below esp. clear?

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Nf6
4. Ng5 d5
5. exd5 Nxd5?! 
6. Nxf7!? Kxf7
7. Qf3+ Ke6
8. Nc3 Ncb4!
9. Qe4 c6: 
10. a3 Na6 11. d4 Nac7 12. Bf4 (12.O-O Kf7 13.dxe5 Be6 unclear; 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14. O-O+ Ke8 unclear e.g. 15.Qf3 Qh4; 12.Qxe5+?! Kf7 13.O-O Be6 14.Ne4 Qd7) 12. Kf7 13. Bxe5 (13.dxe5 Be6 14.O-O-O Qe7 =; 13.O-O-O!?) 13. Be6 14. O-O (14.O-O-O?! Qg5+ 15.f4 Nxc3 16.Qf3 Qg6 17.Qxc3 Nd5 18.Qb3 Nb6 19.Bxe6+ Qxe6 =+) 14. Bd6 unclear;

Any help on this is greatly appreciated. thanks.



There's some info in this thread here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1269280756/30

Master_Om controversially claimed that Black was better or winning in all lines based on hard computer analysis, but most of the rest of us (myself included) reached similar conclusions to those in the quote above.  

A short summary of the improvements for both sides: after 12.f4 Kf7 13.fxe5 Be6 14.0-0+, if 14...Ke8 then I prefer White, but after Master_Om's suggestion 14...Kg8 I can't offer any advance on "unclear".  In the line 12.Bf4 Kf7 13.Bxe5 Be6, 14.0-0 Nf6! leaves Black with an edge, but White can deviate with 14.Qf3+ with similar lines to those following 12.f4.

Interesting that Conquistador suggests 9.Bb3 as this is Fritz's first choice and an option that none of us considered in the other thread.  I'll have to take a closer look at it when I have more time.

Re. 5...Nxd5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.c3, my impression is that it's probably just += with best play but that Black has to walk a tightrope to reach it.  Again I've seen this discussed elsewhere on the forum.
  
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #29 - 07/07/10 at 20:45:45
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Ncb4 9.Bb3 seems to be considered a  problem line for black.
9...c6 10.a3 Na6 11.Nxd5 cxd5 12.d4 Be7 13.0-0 Rf8 14.Qg3 Kf7 15.Qxe5 Kg8 16.Bxd5+ Kh8 17.Be4 Qe8 18.c3 and I think white has the advantage here with three pawns for the piece.
  
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Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #28 - 08/01/06 at 17:23:50
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After 5...Nxd5 6. d4 is Heisman's 6....Nxd4 7. c3  b5 (or f6) viable?
  
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