Latest Updates:
Normal Topic C59: Mainline Two Knights Question 13. Nd2 (Read 1929 times)
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Mainline Two Knights Question 13. Nd2
Reply #3 - 09/08/10 at 16:04:25
Post Tools
@Trw
Thx for posting your take on this variation.
Hardings input stems from his commentary on the
K.Junge game in his correspondence base.
I am not sure, but I thought that I had seen this before in his correspondence mail magazine.

14.b4,Nd5 15.Bb2,Nd5 16.Ne4 is interesting.
I agree with your conclusion that both
16...Re8 and 16...Nxd3 are perfectly playable,
though I would opt for 16...Nxd3 myself
16....Nxd3 17.cxd3,Bxb4+ 18.Bc3,Bxc3 19.Nxc3,Bf5
is quite similar to the Ninov-Klima game I cited and in my view approx equal.

14.b4,Nd5 15.Bb2,Nb7 is another story
I can see the value of 16.a3,Re8! and agree
with your evaluation and improvement over the game.

But frankly I am bothered by 16.Nc4! (iso 16.a3).
Now it seems that after taking on b4 Black no longer equalizes:
a) 16...Nxb4 17.Nxd6,Qxd6 (forced) 18.0-0,Nxd3 19.Bxd3! and black will experience some difficulties to sort out his b7-knight: Nc5?? Bh7 wins the queen.
b) 16..Bxb4 17.Nxb4,Nxb4 18.Qd2,Nd5 19.Be5 and again white is for choice
Finally after 16.Nc4,Re8 17.Nxd6 and white can simply castle on the next move.

So all considered, I still think Black should stick to
14.b4,Nd5 15.Bb2..Nb4(iso 15...Nb7)

After 15....Nxb4 16.Nxb4,Bxb4 17.0-0
your 4th option 17...Bd6 is certainly sufficient for an equal game as well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
YaBB Moderator
*****
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1350
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
Re: Mainline Two Knights Question 13. Nd2
Reply #2 - 09/07/10 at 23:09:51
Post Tools
Very good analysis Micawber thank you.

My own conclusion was that after
13. Nd2 (the corr game I found went 13... Be6 14. b4 Nc4 15. h3 Nxd2 16. Bxd2 Bf5 17. 0-0 0-0 18. Re1 Rad8 19. Bf3 and white went on to win rather easily though i'm not sure black's position is so bad i'm not convinced this is the best way to play).  0-0 14. b4 Nd5! (ironically the game that brought this 13. Nd2 to my attention was a game this weekend between a local A player and a local FM that continued with 14... Nb7 15. Bb2 Bxh2 16. Nc4 Be6 and the A player eventually went on to win with the idea of g3 taking black's bishop.) 15. Bb2

Now A) Nxb4 and B) Nb7

15... Nxb4 already the main discussion
And now A1) 16. Nxb4 and A2) 16. Ne4

A1) 16. Nxb4 16. Bxb4 17. 0-0 (the key position you mention, and I agree).

I agree with the critical moves you mentioned for black to choose from but would like to add one more. This was my first idea upon reaching this position (and I can't find a game with it played). What do you think of 17... Bd6
A11) 18. Nf3 then Rd8.
A12) 18. g3 Bh3 19. Re1 Rab8

A2) Okay there is a game here 1-0 Crepan Marjan (SLO) (2340)-Truta Srecko (SLO) (2222)/Ptuj (Slovenia) 1990
which continued with 16... Be7?! in which case white might be += or just = but perhaps black can still fight for advantage with 16... Nxd3+!? I am not sure. Still the game in question that was played is very interesting and if black's best truly is Be7 then 16. Ne4 must be considered superior imo to 16. Nxb4 as its just a free tempo. The game continued: 17. 0-0 Nc4 18. Bxg7! Kxg7 19. Nxb4 Rd8 20. Nd3 Bf5 21. Ng6 and white was already better.

B) I found a game with 15... Nb7 between 1-0 Rajlich Vasik G (USA) (2209) -Woolridge L/Budapest (Hungary) 2000
it continued 16. a3 Bxh2
My suggestion (as near as I can tell its unplayed) is to go with 16.... Re8 with equal chances but lots of life in the position. This move seems hard to meet especially otb to the unprepared player I think.

B1 17. Nc4
B2 17. 0-0
B3 17. c4
B4 17. Nf3

B1. This shows the main idea of my move that 17... Bg4! 18. f3 Bh5 19. Nxd6 Nxd6 20. 0-0 Ne3 21. Qc1 Nxf1 22. Bxf1 should be a slight plus for black I think.

B2. giving the material back looks best to me. 17. 0-0 Bxh2+ 18. Kh1 Bd6 19. Re1 Bf5 20. Bf3 looks =

B3. 17. c4 Bg4 18. Nf3 Nf4 19. Nxf4 Bxf4 I think is a slight pull for black.

B4. 17. Nf3 c5 (17... Bg4!?) 18. 0-0 c4 (18... Rb8!?) 19. Nde5 c3 20. Bc1 Bxe5 (20... Nb6 21. Nd3 a5 22. Rb1 =) 21. Qxd5 Bxh2+ 22. Nxh2 Rxe2 23. Qd3 = taking the material back.

Full of possibilities and unexplored terrain imo.

What book did Tim Harding make that analysis in? I found nothing in his Evans Gambit and 2N book.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Mainline Two Knights Question 13. Nd2
Reply #1 - 09/06/10 at 09:21:07
Post Tools
Hi,
Yes, I am guilty of this omission.
My opinion is that Black has equal chances.
No, Emms does not mention 13.Nd2..
Am interested in the recent corr.game where black lost.
can you post part of it
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

As in the games you cite:
13..0-0
A) 14.b3
B) 14.b4
C) 14.h3

A) 14.b3
14.b3, Re8!
15.Bb2,           (15.0-0?, Bxh2+ -/+)
15.......,Bg4
16.f3   , Nd5!
17.Ne4    
      (Harding gives 17.fxg,Bg3+! 18.hxg,Qxg3=)
17........, Ne3
18.Qd2, Nxg2+
19.Kd1, Bf4=

20.Qc3!?(Erle - K.Junge, corr., 1942)

Now the game itself took an interesting turn
20...f6 21.Nxf6! gxf 22.Qxf6 (threatening mate),Kh7
23.fxg,Ne3+ 24.Ke1,Bg5 25.Qf3,Nac4 +=
And White eventually erred (the actual error escaped Hardings attention) and lost.
Two comments:
a)Black can avoid all the excitement with 20...f5 when he has a good game.
b)24...Nxc2+ 25.Kd1 (25.Kf1/f2?, Rf8-+),Ne3+
26.Ke1 (25.Kc1??,Nd5+ -+), Bg5! =+ (perhaps -/+)
The same position as in the game, apart from the absence of whites pawn on c2. This difference is important in many lines.




------------------------------------------------
line B. 14.b4
14.b4                (Not the best according to Harding)
14......,Nd5
15.Bb2,Nxb4
16.Nxb4,Bxb4
17.0-0
  And we reach another key position.
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Black has equal chances here:
B1.17....Rb8
B2.17....Rd8
B3.17....Bf5

line B1. Ragozin - Botwinnik
17....Rb8 18.Nb3,Rd8 19.Be5,Rd1?!
(Botwinnik falls for a remarkable combination; Better 19....Bd6=)
20.Bxc7!,Rxa1 21.Rxa1,Nxb3 22.Rd1!!, Ra8 23.Rd8+,Bf8
And now Ragozin could have obtained a marked advantage by 24.cxb3 pointed out by Tal (instead he played axb3)
This combination was commented upon by Tal in Attack with Mikhael Tal

line B2 Spielman- Cohn
17...Rd8= 18.Bd3,Qf4 19.Nf3 (19.Ne4,Nc4=),Nc4 20.Bc1,Qf6 21.Qe2,Nd6 22.Be3,Rd8 23.Ba3,Re8
24.Qd1 And now 24...Ne4= (or the gamecont. 24...Nb5=)

line B3 (Ninov [2522] - Klima [2448],2005
17...Bf5 18.Bd3,Bxd3 19.cxd3,Rab8 20.Nf3=

-----------------------------------------------------
Line C 14.h3
This brings us back to known territory:
14....Bf5 (14...Re8 is possible as well)15.0-0 (15.b4?,Nd5! -/+)
C1. 15...Rfe8 16.b3,Rad8 with compensation(Majevski - Sokolik, 1989)
C2.  15...Rad8 16.Re1,Nd5 with compensation (Cholmov-Geller, Elista, 1995)



« Last Edit: 09/06/10 at 10:44:21 by micawber »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
trw
YaBB Moderator
*****
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1350
Joined: 05/06/08
Gender: Male
C59: Mainline Two Knights Question 13. Nd2
09/06/10 at 04:13:13
Post Tools
Dear my two knight practitioners...

In the line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Be2 h6 9. Nf3 e4 10. Ne5 Bd6 11. d4 exd3 12. Nxd3 Qc7 13. Nd2?!

I have never encountered this move before. There seems to be very few games with it. Whats more of the 15 2N books I own, its a footnote in all them except for Pinski that cites one game (it uses Belov-Nezhmetdinopv Omsk 1961 as the stem game). The rest just remark about the Ragozin-Botvinnik 1945 game and Spielmann Rudolf- Cohn Erich Sweden 1909 (first game I can find with this 13 Nd2 move) and some mention Beikert Guenther- Loeffler Stefan Germany 1986. It looks like Mikhalchishin had a prearranged draw with Geller in this line in 1991.

Anyways, my question is what others opinions are on this move? Are there some hidden Corr or OTB games with this? Or other mentions of it in books, other resources etc. I found a very bad recent corr game with it where black got shocked and lost fast. Doesn't seem too popular a move. Micawber's chesspub guide doesn't even mention it (not surprised with no modern level top games).

I don't have Emms beating the open games if someone could check that for me please too to see if mentions this line.
« Last Edit: 07/24/11 at 20:55:54 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo