(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. e4 e5 - Non-Spanish › 2 Knights › C57-C59: The Fried Liver Attack
(Moderators: Smyslov_Fan, Jupp53, trw)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57-C59: The Fried Liver Attack (Read 43467 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #12 - 12/15/04 at 18:15:36
Post Tools
A line for Black, in which R.J.Fischer was beaten severely should be taken seriously, don't you think? (Fischer-Burger, San Francisco sim 1964).
The Fritz-Ulvestad Variation has been thoroughly tested in corr. games - especially in theme tournaments - with satisfactory results for Black. At the other hand, OTB-players usually prefer 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5. I do not want to challenge the excellent reputation of this move, but still feel the centralization of the knight more natural. Moreover the thematic move b7-b5 opens a very strong diagonal for the queen's bishop.
According to all sources I know, 5...b5 (I think this more precise than 5...Nd4 6.c3 b5, but it is not so clear) 6.Bf1 (6.Bxb5 Qxd5 with Bb7 to follow) Nd4 (I do not trust h6 and Nxd5) 7.c3 Nxd5 8.Ne4 (8.cxd4 Qxg5; 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.cxd4 exd4 or Nf4; 8.h4?! h6) Ne6! (the piece sac Qh4 is insufficient) 9.Bxb5+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ (10.Qa4 Ndf4) Qxd7 11.o-o Be7 12.d4 exd4 13.cxd4 o-o 14.Nbc3 and all sources I know, give White some advantage here. I am so arrogant to disagree: Rad8! (the other rook must support the march of the f-pawn)
a) 15.Nxd5 Qxd5 16.Nc3 Qxd4 17.Be3 Qe5 18.Qa4 Bd6
    19.g3 Nc5 and Black's activity compensates for the weak queen's pawns.
b) 15.Be3 Nxc3 16.bxc3 (16.Nxc3 Nxd4 =) f5 17.Nc5
     Bxc5 18.dxc5 Qc6 and Black has a good position; his
     main idea is f5-f4-f3.
This line is a good illustration of the dynamic point of view, that one must strive for active play to compensate a weakness, rather than passively defend it.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #11 - 12/15/04 at 05:41:44
Post Tools
I would very much like to see that analysis!  I was under the impression that White was considered better in the Ulvestad/Fritz variations.  When I last looked at the Ulvestad, I also thought White had some intersting options other than transposing to the Fritz.  But it was a while back ...
  
If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #10 - 12/15/04 at 05:26:46
Post Tools
4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 is equal. If you like, I will provide you with some analysis.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #9 - 12/14/04 at 12:03:37
Post Tools
Quote:

But even if Black has not very much, this still confirms my opinion that 4.d3! is the only way to play for an advantage.

It is consistent with your view but it does not confirm it, since the big question is whether 4. Ng5 offers White good winning chances.  If I myself wanted the full point (why would I have opened this way Tongue ? but leaving that aside) I would play 4. Ng5 and make Black prove that he has full comp for the pawn.   

I don't think 4. d3 is a move that produces good winning chances, except in the sense that it produces a maneuvering game that either player could win.  It is sometimes played at high levels, but I don't know that anyone is claiming a theoretical edge for White.  Don't forget that Black not only has 4...Bc5 (= sez I) but also 4...Be7 (=).  Unfortunately 4...d5 is not quite sound.  I would be most interested to learn if there are any lines that offer much to White.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #8 - 12/13/04 at 18:53:52
Post Tools
I would rather have Black after 8.Be3
A) 8...Bd7 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.o-o Qe7! (White can probably maintain equality with 10.Nd2 Qh4!?
B) 8...o-o!? 9.Nxc6 bxc6 10.Bxc5 Nxc5 11.Bxc6 Rb8 12.o-o Rxb2 13.Bxd5 Ba6.
But even if Black has not very much, this still confirms my opinion that 4.d3! is the only way to play for an advantage.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #7 - 12/13/04 at 16:36:51
Post Tools
Quote:
The counter gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5! 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5! is strong; White is struggling for equality.


Really?  I thought that White was perfectly O.K. after 8. Be3. Some (Harding anyway) have claimed even a little better.  I have played the Black side of this several times in serious games without thinking that either side had very much.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #6 - 12/09/04 at 23:59:11
Post Tools
The counter gambit 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5! 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5! is strong; White is struggling for equality. There is another thread on this line.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEGutman
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Psychological draw offers
are the key to success.

Posts: 41
Location: Pasadena
Joined: 12/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #5 - 12/09/04 at 18:23:10
Post Tools
I would like to agree, but I think white gets some initiative after d4 also after ed followed by e5, a lot of strong young attacking players enjoy this line the only line that theory claims is still equal here (Theory also claims 3. Bc4 is just equal and it's probably right) black has to play ng4 white castles and white will already enjoy a significant lead in development.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10775
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #4 - 12/09/04 at 16:00:45
Post Tools
I think 4.d3 is the only way to play for an opening advantage. After all others Black can try to take over the initiative.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEGutman
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Psychological draw offers
are the key to success.

Posts: 41
Location: Pasadena
Joined: 12/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #3 - 12/09/04 at 09:47:30
Post Tools
Worth mentioning that NM Dan Heisman did some very extensive computer analysis of the fried liver and lolli also there is a book called like 100 busts or something like that by watson I believe where he shows that the fried liver is a forced draw for black and I believe he also thinks the same of the lolli, the line in the fried liver is far more convincing, but both are worth looking into if you plan on playing/offering it.  Curiously I stopped playing Ng5 altogether just because I don't like to deal with black's initiative in the main line after d5 ed na5 Bb5 c6 dc bc be2 since the pawn sacrifice seems to be quite sound for black, personally i've found that 4. d3 while very quiet looking is an attempt to play the two knights kind of like a ruy lopez, it avoids lots of theory, gives white a good chance for a long term advantage and can be quite tricky (I'm also an Evan's Gambit player: talk about contrasting openings)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
God Member
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #2 - 12/25/03 at 09:57:31
Post Tools
But at the amateur level, Nxd5 is seen all too often - a guy at my club plays the fried liver and gets to play it 4 times a season at the 1500 level I'd reckon, and has never failed to win with it.

I dont play either line, a friend and decent chessplayer on Yahoo's message boards asked me to do some analysis on it for him. 2.f4!! cuts out all the hassle, except for when I throw in the occasional Belgrade gambit. 

I only go on yahoo as I have many strong friends who hang out there, I rarely play a serious game online anymore due to my poor excuse for an ISP. I do occasionally go on playchess, but rarely these days. Admittedly Yahoo as a playing environment is pretty poor, but it's still the best place to go to just chat while paying chess.
  
"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
FacebookTwitterYouTube  
IP Logged
 
nexirae
Full Member
***
Offline


SMURF!  Soviet Men Under
Red Father!

Posts: 238
Location: Cornell Univ., Ithaca
Joined: 11/03/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Fried Liver Attack
Reply #1 - 12/24/03 at 11:19:30
Post Tools
I'll tell ya right now why the Fried Liver is almost never seen anymore...

Nxd5 lines have become so rare, not because of the Fried Liver but because of Morphy and Fischer's favorite, the Lolli attack.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4!  

This move saves Nxf7 for later, say after exd4 O-O Be7 Nxf7! wins.  There is no need to sac the knight right away...black can hold his own in the Fried Liver.  In the Lolli though...not really.  Masters don't play Nxd5 anymore because of the Lolli, so why not invest some research into it?

Also, one more subtlety I thought I'd bring up...if you dread the Na5 lines like I do, save Ng5 for another move.  I prefer 4.d4! and will play a Perreux variation if it doesn't go back into a Lolli.  This move order effectively eliminates the Na5 line.  E.g., 4.d4 exd4 5.Ng5!

Someone on here posted this site already, but:
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/perreux/index.html



NeX iRae

P.S. Get off Yahoo!  That site's worthless...check out USCL, FICS, ICC just to name a few.  Yahoo is just filled with cheaters and people who don't know how to play...ugh...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
God Member
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
C57-C59: The Fried Liver Attack
12/24/03 at 06:45:11
Post Tools
Forgive me if I've missed the thread already existing, but I couldn't find one on this. So, here it is.
I've just finished posting on the Yahoo! chess message boards about a question on this opening. I've always been a KG player so I've never really looked into the theory of it, but it was extremely interesting looking at some lines, especially without a computer or any knowledge of the theory. I dont know what theory's conclusion of the 8...Ncb4 lines are, but I found white to be winning in almost every line after 9.a3, and found that 9.d4 and 9.Qe4 were viable, and indeed felt 9.Qe4! seemed as strong as 9.a3, if not more so. 

If people want I can copy the analysis from my file on here, otherwise I can direct you over to Yahoo's "Chess Openings" thread (I'm sure everyone here will be able to find it), but I felt it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether black really has a hope of holding his position if he plays 5...Nxd5. And also to see people tear my analysis limb from limb  Wink

Regards, 
Craig  Grin
« Last Edit: 07/17/11 at 19:07:09 by Smyslov_Fan »  
"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
FacebookTwitterYouTube  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2025. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge