Dear friends,
   It is pleasure for me to send this reaction to Teyko´s suggestion of 6.Bd3 in 5.Nxf3 c6 Ziegler Variation. I hope it will give some fresh new insights in the line and that we can together reach a conlusion whether this line is playable or not. It seems to me for now that it is almost playable. Of course, I´m speaking from a viewpoint of high-level correspondence play (and in view of 7..Bxf3!? continuation below), for over the board chess, this variation is sufficient enough as it gives good practical chances and is easy to learn.

With best wishes
Patrik Schoupal a.k.a. Sevenviolets

BDG Ziegler defence [D00] 5..c6 6.Bd3!?
26.02.2005
[Patrik Schoupal]

1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6

[3...c6 4.f3! (4.Nxe4 This is a normal Caro Kann.) 4...exf3 (4...Nf6!?) 5.Nxf3 Transposes into the main line.]

4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6

This line is called Ziegler defence. It is considered to be one of the most solid systems against BDG (in addition to e.g. Euwe def., Lemberger Countergambit and Vienna def.). It resembles Caro Kann defence. First, let me think about this move for a while. What does it do? What ideas lie behind it? Black´s plan is (based on experience) Bf5, e6, Be7, 0–0. But why is he playing c6, when  he can simply play Bf5, e6, Be7 immediately? Is he simply waiting to learn more about how white is going to develop his pieces?  It resembles not only Caro-Kann but also some kind of Slav def. (if e6 would be played) or some position from Qa5 Scandinavian as black has this possibility now. Let see what white can play now.

6.Bd3 This move prevents black to play Bf5.  6...Bg4 The most logical move though there are not much alternatives.

[a) 6...e6?! Now, Bc8 bishop is "bad". White has compensation for a pawn. There is plenty of possibilities e.g. 7.Bg5 or 7.0–0. 7.Bg5 Qb6 8.Qd2 Offering yet another pawn for deadly development advantage. 8...Qxb2?! (8...Nbd7 9.0–0–0© with compensation.) 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.Rb3 Qa5 11.0–0 Nbd7 12.Qf4 White has all pieces ready to attack. Black´s king  is stuck in the middle. Just  little example: 12...h6 13.Bxf6 Nxf6 14.Ne5 Be7 15.g4!? 0–0 (15...Qd8 16.h4 Rf8 17.g5 hxg5 18.hxg5 Nh5 19.Qg4 Bxg5 20.Nxf7 Nf6 21.Qxg5 Qxd4+ 22.Kg2 Kxf7 23.Bg6+ Ke7 (23...Kg8 24.Ne4+-) 24.Bh5+-) 16.g5 hxg5 17.Qxg5 c5 18.Rf3 Qd8 (18...cxd4 19.Rg3+-) 19.Ne2 Ne4 20.Qh5 Ng5 21.Rg3+-;

b) 6...g6?! Can black play such slow-paced chess without being punished with quick crush? No. 
7.Be3 Of course there are other possibilities including 0–0. 7...Bg7 (7...Ng4 8.Bf4 Bg7 9.h3 Nf6 is no problem.) 8.Qd2 0–0 9.0–0–0 Nd5 10.Nxd5 cxd5 11.h4! followed by h5.]

7.0–0

[7.h3 Bh5 (7...Bxf3 8.Qxf3 and white has good compensation. Compare with 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 where white is usually playing 7.Be3 classical main line or 7.g4 Hara-Kiri variation. Here, 7.Bd3!? is rarely played, transposing to this line. 8...Qxd4 9.Be3© with compensation.) 8.0–0 a) 8.g4?! Bg6 Now, black seems to be OK, although the position remains unclear. 9.0–0 Nbd7!? (9...e6?! transposes to 8.0–0; 9...Bxd3 10.Qxd3) ; b) 8.Be3 e6 9.0–0 Bd6 10.g4 Bg6; 8...e6 (8...Bxf3? 9.Qxf3 Qxd4+ 10.Be3© with compensation.) 9.g4 Bg6 10.g5 Nfd7 (10...Nd5 11.Bxg6 hxg6 12.Ne5 f5 13.Nxd5 Qxd5 14.c4±) 11.Bf4 Na6 (11...Qb6 12.a3 Be7 13.Qd2 Bxd3 14.Qxd3©) 12.a3 Be7 13.Ne4 c5 unclear.; 7.Be3 e6! (7...Qb6 8.Qd2 Bxf3 9.gxf3 Nbd7 10.0–0–0 e6 11.Rhg1 Nd5 12.Nxd5 cxd5 unclear.) ]

7...e6

[7...Bxf3!N Teyko, what´s your continuation here? 8.Qxf3 Qxd4+ 9.Be3 Qg4 10.Qf2 with some compensation but probably not enough.]

8.Be3

[8.h3!? Teyko´s suggestion. Introductory move to the Curry Attack. 8...Bh5 (8...Bxf3 9.Qxf3 Qxd4+ (9...Be7 10.Be3 0–0 11.g4 with attack.) 10.Be3 well, seems like having compensation.) 9.g4 Bg6 10.g5 Nfd7 11.Nh4! Well, the "Curry Attack" variation, proposed by Teyko. Let´s see how black can face it. 11...Bxd3 Why not? 12.Qxd3 Now, there are some threats on kingside.  12...Be7!? Perhaps this is the only playable move for black. I let Teyko pleasure to refute it himself. I´m looking forward to his response.

a) 12...Bd6?! 13.Ne4 Bc7 and black position seems weird. I wonder if there is anybody who will prefer playing black now. 14.g6!! f6 (14...Qxh4 15.Bg5+-) 15.gxh7 (15.Qb3!? is also winning.) 15...Nf8 16.Ng6!! Nxg6 17.Nxf6+ gxf6 18.Qxg6+ Kd7 19.Rxf6 Kc8 20.Rxe6 with attack.;

b) 12...Na6?! with a plan to castle queenside. 13.Qf3 Qe7 14.Ne4 0–0–0 15.Qxf7 Qxf7 16.Rxf7 e5 17.Nf5 white seems to be better.; ]

8...Nbd7

[8...Bd6 9.Qe1 Bxf3 10.Rxf3 Nbd7 11.Qh4 transposing into the main line!]

9.Qe1 in fashion of Bogoljubow Studier attack. 9...Bxf3 10.Rxf3 Bd6 11.Qh4 Nd5 12.Qg4 N7f6

[12...Nxe3!? 13.Qxg7 Rf8 14.Ne4 (14.Rxe3 Qb6 15.Rae1 0–0–0 16.Bxh7÷ unclear.) 14...Nf5 (14...Bxh2+ 15.Kxh2 Qc7+ 16.Kg1 (16.g3 Nf5 17.Rxf5 exf5 18.Nf6+ Nxf6 19.Qxf6 Rg8 20.Re1+ Kf8) 16...Nf5 17.Nf6+ Nxf6 18.Qxf6 Qe7 19.Qxe7+ Nxe7 20.Bxh7=) 15.Rxf5 Bxh2+ 16.Kxh2 Qh4+ 17.Kg1 exf5 18.Nd6+ Kd8 19.Nxf5 Qf6 20.Qg3 h5 21.c3÷ unclear.]

13.Qxg7 Rg8 14.Nxd5 Rxg7 15.Nxf6+ Ke7 16.Bh6 Qh8 17.Raf1 Rg6 18.Bxg6 hxg6 19.Bg5 Bxh2+ 20.Kf2 Bc7 21.Ke2+- Line


P.S.
1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bd3 Bg4 7.0-0 Bxf3! 8.Qxf3 Qxd4+ 9.Be3 Qg4 10.Qf2 and now 10..e6 11.h3 Qh5 12.Ne4 Nbd7! 13.Rad1 Be7! and despite the fact that white´s pieces are developed and well and actively placed, black position seems to be secure enough. Worse is 12..Nxe4?! 13.Bxe4 Nbd7 14.Rad1 Bc5? which offers some tactical fireworks for white after 15.Rxd7! Bxe3 16.Qxe3 Kxd7 17.g4 Qb5 18.c4! and white is winning here, believe or not. Still, 14..0-0-0!? seems to be o.k. here. I hope I reproduced these lines correctly because I´m putting them down by hearth.

Interesting analysis from Rajmund. Though I am not convinced of White's advantage after 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 (Von Hennig-Milner Barry Gambit) exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.o-o e6 8.Ng5 Bxc2 9.Nf7 Bxd1 10.Nxd8 Kxd8 11.Rxd1 Nd5 12.Re1 Kd7 13.Rf1 Ke8 14.Bd2 Be7 15.Rae1 Nc7 16.Bxe6 Nxe6 17.Rxe6 Kd7.
But maybe White can improve with 14.Bg5
A1) 14...h6 15.Bd2! (the pawn on h6 benefits White) Be7 16.Rae1 Nc7 17.Bf4 Nba6 18.Bxa6 Nxa6 19.Rxe6 Kd7 20.Rg6! (that is why).
A2) 14...Be7 15.Bxe7 Kxe7 16.Rae1 Nc7 17.Ne4 seems to favour White as well.

"The curry attack", hot and spicy

Quote:


Good grief!!!  Must we go around and around and around and around this same, tiresome mulberry bush?  Below is a verbatim quote of the analysis Bonsai posted in the thread (now fairly old) on the so-called "Gunderam Defense," and to which I pointed in my earlier post on this thread.

I would have thought that you'd have dealt with this before claiming how hunky dory 10. Bd3 is.

Quotation of Bonsai begins.

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6 9. g5 Nh5 10. Bd3 Qxd4 11. Bxg6 Qxe5+ 12. Be4 Why on earth would black let white get the kind of attacking chances he gets in the main game? It seems more sensible to keep white from getting too much play with 12...Bb4, doesn't it? 

A. 13. Bd2 Bxc3 14. Bxc3 Qxg5 doesn't look great for white.

B. 13. O-O f5 14. Qxh5+ g6 15. Qf3 Bxc3 16. bxc3 Qxe4 17. Qxe4 fxe4 18. Rf6 Nd7 19. Rxe6+ Kf7 20. Rxe4 Rhe8 This endgame is clearly better for black, but maybe white can draw it.

Quotation of Bonsai ends.

As for 7...Ne4, why would Black want to seek complications when he's a pawn up in a position with no weaknesses?

Quote:



I love you too MNB. Perhaps I should have been more clear in my first post. I should have said that the three most problematic variations in which compensation for the pawn is most unclear is the Bogo, the Ziegler and the Variation of the Hubsch advocated by GM Prie.

Secondly, I believe the Zilbermints gambit in the Nc6 lines actually hold up. After some extensive analysis it seems to pan out.

Thirdly, in the variation you were speaking of in the piece sac line, white is winning if you are talking about the main line where 12. a3!! was discovered, but if you are talking about the line you sent me months prior I believe that white was slightly better if black does not take the draw by repetition. I believe you argued that your queen side pawns would win it, but I believed that the open lines and the two bishops gave me plenty of chances for an attack.

Fourthly, zeigler variation is well met by 6. Bd3!. This is Stummer's move, and can be worked out in whites favor, if you ignore his games.

Okay, I am going to post some of my personal analysis here, against my better judgement, GM Prie if you are watching I totally want credit for this novelty. Maybe call it Teyko's Tempo or the curry attack.

[White "Stummer Attack"]
[Black "Junior 9"]
[Result "1-0"]


1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. e4 dxe4 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 c6 6. Bd3 Bg4 7. O-O e6 8. h3 Bh5 9. g4 Bg6 10. g5!? Nfd7 11. Nh4!

I will extend the analysis as the board replies.

Quote:



I believe so. I mean white is actually only down a pawn, and I think in the variation

[White "J., Tommy"]
[Black "Junior 9"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bf5 6. Ne5 e6 7. g4 Bg6 8. Qf3 c6 9. g5 Nh5 10. Bd3 Qxd4 11. Bxg6 Qxe5+ 12. Be4 g6 13. Rf1!? white is doing well.



13...Bb4 14.Be3!

13...f5 14.gxf6 Kf7 15.Bd2 with the idea of castling. White has to be better in this position.

I only know of two variations that seem to test the Blacmar Diemar Gambit. I have spent hours analyzing this thing, and to be very honest. White is just equal in the best lines. In the Bogolijubov defense white gets his pawn back and the lines are just equal. In grand master Prie's lines of the Hubsch white is just equal, with equal material, and in the zeigler white has the initiative, but is just equal.

I have recently taken up the scotch and found that there are positions that I would be down a pawn with the attack than equal and defending black's initiative. I suppose it is a matter of taste, but the Blackmar Diemar Gambit is not dead, or in trouble. It just bothers people that you can give up a pawn from move two and attack the hell out of them. But as I have said in the 3 previous lines, a draw is a probable outcome, but how is that not true in most analyzed openings.

If you guys want some analysis or to chat hit me at Teyko@mchsi.com, or ICC under teyko.

Peace.

Quote:


In the above line I believe that white could play 10.Bd3 immediately. White can't take the bishop because of the mate on f7, and 10...Qxd4 is easily met with 11.Bxg6 Qxe5+ 12. Be4 and now where can black's knight go?

1. d4 d5  2. e4 dxe4  3. Nc3 Nf6  4. f3 exf3  5. Nxf3 Bf5  (of course technically this shouldn't be in the Ziegler thread) 6. Ne5 e6  7. g4 Bg6 8. Qf3 c6  9. g5 Nh5 10.Be3 Nd7 12.Nxg6 hxg6

Here I would have thought that White had full compensation for his pawn.  I think White should start with 13.Bd3 to discourage ...f6 breaks then castle kingside.  He can pressure f7 and may follow with Rf2/Raf1 and/or advance his queenside pawns if Black were to castle ...0-0-0.