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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Scotch gambit (Read 15934 times)
Markovich
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #18 - 08/08/06 at 00:15:14
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Strategy_Rules wrote on 08/07/06 at 20:20:09:
Isnt the main problem of the scotch gambit, that black can just play 4...Bc5 ? 

After 5.c3 Nf6 ! we reached a well known and completely equal variation of the italian game (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4) and 5.0-0 is dubious because of 5....d6! 6.c3 Lg4!.


There are two "main problems."  The line you point out, which is perfectly good for Black, and 4...Nf6, which is perfectly good for Black.  That's why the Scotch Gambit isn't seen in top-level chess.  However, at the club level and especially for young and improving players, I think it's a fine way to play the White pieces.  You should learn to play this way before you undertake the long lines of the Spanish, etc., etc.
  
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #17 - 08/07/06 at 20:20:09
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Isnt the main problem of the scotch gambit, that black can just play 4...Bc5 ? 

After 5.c3 Nf6 ! we reached a well known and completely equal variation of the italian game (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4) and 5.0-0 is dubious because of 5....d6! 6.c3 Lg4!.
  
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #16 - 08/07/06 at 11:05:36
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MNb wrote on 09/18/04 at 20:31:54:
I find Pinski's idea 8.Nxc6? Bxf2+ 9.Ke2 hard to believe. Compared with 9.Kf1 Qh4 the line 9.Ke2 Bg4+ 10.Kf1 gives Black an extra attacking piece. After Qh4! 11.Qxd5 Bb6 12.Nd4+ c6 13.Bxc6+ bxc6 14.Qxc6+ Bd7 15.Qxa8+ Ke7 Black wins.
The same position arises after 9.Kf1 Qh4 when the Black bishop goes from c8 to d7.


very interesting. I missed that (sort of) transposition.

Markovich's 13.Qxe4 Bxd4  14.Qxd4 Be2+ 15.Bxe2 Qxd4  16.Nd2 Qxe5  17.Nf3 Qc5 doesn't look so bad for White though.

some more material...

J.Arnott-M.Hebden, British rapid, Halifax 2003
9....Bg4+ 10.Kf1 Qh4 11.Qxd5 Ng3+? 12.hxg3 Qxh1+ 13.Kxf2 0–0 14.Ne7+ Kh8 15.Bg5 Rad8 16.Qe4 Rd1 17.Qxg4 and White won (eventually)

J.Arnott-J.Tait, Sheffield League 2003 (the following week)
9...bxc6 10.Bxc6+ Kf8 11.Qxd5 Bg4+ 12.Kf1 Qxd5?? (12...Bb6 - dunno what I was thinking) 13.Bxd5 Rd8 14.Bxe4 Rd1+ 15.Kxf2 Rxh1 16.Nd2 Ke7 17.Nf1 1–0

J.Arnott-J.Tait, Sheffield League 2004
9...Bg4+ 10.Kf1 Qd7 11.e6 Bxe6 12.Nd4 c6 13.Nxe6 Qxe6 14.Bd3 Bb6 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.Qe2 0–0 17.Nc3 e3 18.a4 Rfe8 19.g3 Qh3+ 20.Ke1 Rad8 21.Qf3 Qe6 22.a5 Bd4 23.Ne2 Bc5 24.Ra4 b5 25.axb6 Bxb6 26.h3 Qd6 27.Kf1 Qd1+ 28.Kg2 Qxc2 29.Rg4 Rd2 30.Re1 Red8 (both players in time trouble) 31.b4 f5 32.Rh4 g6 33.g4 Rf8? (33...Rd1 34.Rxd1 Rxd1 35.gxf5 Re1-+) 34.g5 Re8 35.Kf1 Rd1 36.Qf4 Rd4? (36...Bd4) 37.Nxd4 Bxd4 38.Bxe3 Bxe3 39.Qc4+ Qxc4+ 40.Rxc4 and White won.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #15 - 05/07/05 at 08:51:23
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Very convincing post Crusader_Bishop. Grin

If anyone wants to find out more about this Two Knights Defence line check out Pete Tamburro's site from Chess FM radio. Also GM Roman Dzinzihascvilli has a DVD series one of which is devoted to this line of the Two Knights Defence, and I am told this DVD is quite good.

So there you have it, all you have to do know is pull out your wallet or Credit Card.

Regards

Top Grin
  
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #14 - 05/07/05 at 00:03:57
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I prefer the white pieces.
  
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MNb
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #13 - 09/21/04 at 18:59:56
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As stated before, in the Scottish Gambit/Two Knights Defense 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Nf6! 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 (7.o-o Bg4) Bc5! 8.Be3 is critical. According to theory, Black cannot play gambit any longer. But is this true? 8...o-o 9.Nxc6 bxc6 10.Bxc5 Nxc5
11.Bxc6 Rb8! (Ba6? 12.Nc3)
A) 12.Nc3 d4 draw in 26, Dencsi-Timmermans, Budapest 2002.
B) 12.Qd4 Qg5 draw in 31, Jarecki-Burke, New York 1984.
C) 12.Qxd5 Qe7 13.o-o Rxb2 14.Nc3 Rd8 draw in 29, Neubauer-Van Riemsdijk, Sao Paulo 2002.
D1) 12.o-o Rxb2 13.Bxd5 Ba6 14.c4 (14.Re1 Nd3!) c6 15.Qd4 Nd3 equal.
D2) 12.o-o Ba6 13.Re1 Rxb2 draw in 17, Sjaposjnikov-Varavin, St Petersburg 2000.
It seems that White can not prove anything.
  
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #12 - 09/20/04 at 15:45:39
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Pinski does not mention the line brought up by MNb, but it looks strong indeed. I don't know if Pinski looked at this line, but I have got no good advice for White. Even 13.Qxe4 looks more promising for Black.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #11 - 09/20/04 at 14:42:10
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Perhaps Pinski's idea in the variation quoted by MNb was, instead of 10. Bxc6+, 10. Qxe4, but after 10...Bxd4  11. Qxd4 (terrible for White is 11. Bxc6+ bxc6  12. Qe1 Qxe1+ 13. Kxe1 O-O-O) 11...Be2+  12. Bxe2 Qxd4  13. Nd2 Qxe5  14. Nf3 Qc5 Blacks queen and pawn seem better than White's three minor pieces.
  
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MNb
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #10 - 09/18/04 at 20:31:54
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I find Pinski's idea 8.Nxc6? Bxf2+ 9.Ke2 hard to believe. Compared with 9.Kf1 Qh4 the line 9.Ke2 Bg4+ 10.Kf1 gives Black an extra attacking piece. After Qh4! 11.Qxd5 Bb6 12.Nd4+ c6 13.Bxc6+ bxc6 14.Qxc6+ Bd7 15.Qxa8+ Ke7 Black wins.
The same position arises after 9.Kf1 Qh4 when the Black bishop goes from c8 to d7.
  
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feb
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #9 - 09/18/04 at 11:29:32
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Thanks for the replies. I think you are right MNb. I tried to approach the choice between 7...Bc5 and 7...Bd7  from a practical point of view (for OTB games at my modest level) and wanted to avoid the complexities (and possible drawing lines) of 7...Bc5 8.Nxc6 (perhaps I am getting lazy). Markovich, I knew your site already through a chesscafe article. Great site. 

I took a closer look at this strange-looking 9.Ke2!? some time ago. I don't remember all the details, but instead of Pinski's recommendation 9...Bg4+ 10.Kf1 Qd7 11.e6 Bxe6 12.Nd4 c6, I think Black could try 9...Qd7!? (threatening with Qg4+! and bxc6 simultaneously). If my notes are correct, then 10.e6 fxe6 11.Bd3 is White's best, as the alternatives 11.Nd4 c6 12.Ba4 Bxd4 13.Qxd4 b5 14.Bb3 c5 and 11.Nxa7 c6 12.Nxc8 cxb5 13.Nd2 Ra4! favor Black.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #8 - 09/18/04 at 08:23:41
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Feb,

9. Ke2!? is interesting; I had never considered it.  I agree that 9...Qd7 seems best.  Then 10. e6 Bxe6  11. Nd4 c6  would appear to be forced.

I then looked at 12. Nxe6 Qxe6  13. Bd3 Bb6  14. Bxe5 exd5.

What a position!  In spite of the reduced material and that the Black rooks are not yet active, I think that White is in so much trouble with his king that Black may actually have more than enough compensation.  That e-pawn is going to look a lot like a piece when it gets to e3.

But these are only preliminary impressions.  Thanks for the info!
  
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MNb
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #7 - 09/17/04 at 15:38:22
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7...Bc5! is more precise because of:
A) 8.Be3 Bd7 (maybe even o-o is possible) 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.o-o?! (better 10.Nd2) Qe7! 11.f3 Nd6! which is only possible due to Be3.
B) 8.o-o o-o 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Be3 Qe8! and Black is even slightly better.
After 7...Bd7 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.o-o Bc5 White has 10.f3 Ng5 11.f4 or 11.Be3 o-o 12.f4 with an initiative.
Moreover, it is fun to play a countergambit against the Scottish Gambit.
So 7...Bc5! 8.Be3 Bd7 (o-o!?) 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.Nd2 is best for White, but it is an open question if he has something after both Nxd2 and Qh4.
  
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #6 - 09/17/04 at 10:54:43
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7...Bd7 often transposes to the 7...Bc5 lines. Is there a particular independent line with 7...Bd7 or a move-order problem which makes you prefer 7...Bc5? 

Btw. After 7...Bc5 8.Nxc6 Bxf2+, Pinski mentions an interesting idea 9.Ke2!? in his book: 9...Bg4+ [9...Qh4?! 10.Qxd5] 10.Kf1! Qd7 [10...Bxd1? 11.Nxd8+ Kxd8 12.Nc3 Nxc3 13.Bg5+ is good for White] 11.e6 Bxe6 12.Nd4 c6. I think 9...Qd7 deserves attention.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #5 - 09/17/04 at 08:24:03
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I have played the Black side of this in many games as far as move 7, where I agree with "MNb" that 7...Bc5 is the best move.  If I recall my preparation correctly  Roll Eyes, 8. 0-0 is then strongly met by 8...0-0.  Also 8. Nxc6 is rather weak.  So White does best to play 8. Be3 and now 8...Bd7  9. Bxc6 bxc6 brings about a well-known, dynamically unequal position where Black's chances are no worse  Grin.
  
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Re: Scotch gambit
Reply #4 - 08/17/04 at 09:02:30
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Quote:
In fact, your line transposes into a line in the two knights defence [1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4]. As far as I know, 11...Ne4 is usually the recommended move in the line you gave [with 10.f3 Ng5 I assume], which looks more active than 11...Ne6. That is at least what I play with the Black pieces.

Yes Ne4 is the recomended move but i think after Be3 then either Nc3 or d2 depending on weather black castles or plays Bb6 and then Nb3 white will just have an advantage.
  
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