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Normal Topic Quaade/Piercegambit (Read 6050 times)
MNb
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Re: Quaade/Piercegambit
Reply #6 - 09/22/04 at 20:44:12
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To be honest, no, I have not looked at 8.h3 h5 9.Be3 Bf6 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 but d5 12.Qd2
seems still messy to me:
A) 12...h4 (Fritz' idea) 13.Bf4 hxg3 14.Bxg3 Bg5 15.Bf4.
B) 12...Ne7 (human move) 13.hxg4 hxg4 14.Rxh8+ Bxh8 15.Qh2.
Another amazing Fritz' idea is 11...Nc6 12.Nd5 Kd7!?

But maybe White must postpone h2-h3 one move:
8.Be3 Ne7 (Nc6 is Kennaugh-Bellin,1998 again) 9.h3 f5 (h5 transposes and Bf6 is answered by 10.hxg4 += at least) 10.exf5 (10.Bd3 fxe4 11.Nxe4 h5 and I do not see, how White can take benefit of his development advantage) Bxf5 (Nxf5 11.Nxf5 Bxf5 12.hxg4 looks OK)
11.Bg5 (I am not sure about 11.hxg4 Bxg4 12.Qd3) Qd7 (Fritz suggests o-o, but 12.Bc4+ must be very good for White) 12.hxg4 (12.Nxf5 Nxf5 13.Qd3 Qe6+ 14.Kd2 Bh6! and the White king experiences more danger than the Black one) Bxg4 (f2+ 13.Kxf2 Bg4 14.Be2 Rf8+
15.Kg2 is about equal) 13.Nxf3 (not better 13.Qd3 Nbc6 14.o-o-o f2 or 13...f2) Nbc6 14.Be2 o-o-o and I think Black is better, as pawn d4 is weak.

So for the time being, Emms' idea 10.Nf5 in Furhoff-Petran,1994, is critical. The question, when to play h2-h3 remains intriguing.
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Quaade/Piercegambit
Reply #5 - 09/22/04 at 18:39:33
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Quote:
In the KG/Modern Variation thread Dragonslayer has posted some analysis of the Pierce Gambit. I have a question for him and others.

After 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Pf3 g5 4.Pc3 Pc6 5.d4 g4 6.Lc4 gxf3 7.0-0 Pxd4 8.Lxf4 Lc5 9.Le3 Pe2+ 10.Kh1 Lxe3 11.Lxf7+ Kxf7 12.Dxe2 Lg5 13.Dxf3+ Kg7 14.Df7+ Kh6 15.g4 Pf6 16.Tf3 Pxg4 17.Th3+ Lh4
what about 18.Tf1 Dg5 19.Tf5 Pe5 20.Txg5 Pxf7 21.Tgg3 Pg5 22.Txh4+ Kg6 23.Tf4 ?
I do not know how to judge this position. White will remain some material down (probably a pawn) but Black's pieces are not the most active of the board.


This is ok for White, I had analyzed this some more moves: 21.Rgg3 (21.Rg2 should also be considered since it defends c2, which is important in some variations where the knight captures on c7)  Ng5 22.Rxh4+ Kg6 23.Rf4 d6 24.h4 h6 White should draw, but has negligible winning chances. 25.Nd5 is met by 25...c6. When White captures on g5 Black will probably rely h6-h5 when pawn-g5 leaves the King a nice blockade square on g6.
There are lots of variations where White can win back the pawn but the result is often a complicated rook endgame, quite a detour for the KG player!

Black also has 19...Qc1+ then 20.Rf1 Qg5 is a repetition, but White has the interesting 20.Nd1!? (luring the queen away from g5) Qxd1+ 21.Rf1 Qxf1+ (forced) 22.Qxf1 d6 23.Qf7 Kg5 leaves Black with a bunch of pieces for the queen. White can draw with 24.Qg7+ or play for the win with 24.Qe7+. The queen can win some pawns but I don't see how White can prevent Black from setting up a fortress, since the e-pawn will never advance past e6. But is it definitely playable and easier to be White.
Another problem variation I had was 22...Nf2+ 23.Qxf2 Bxh3 24.Qxh4+ Kg6 25.Qxh3 White can draw, but hardly play for the win.
Bu now I see that White can also play 22.Qf4+! Kg6 23.Rxh4 h5 24.h3 Ne5 25.Qg3+ and the rook reenters play.

So the position after 23.Rf4 is critical.

In the g2-g3 lines I had an idea recently: 3...g5 4.Nc3 Nc6 and now 5.g3!? aiming at the typical position but this poses all new questions like 5...g4 6.Nh4 Nd4!?

In the other lines I agree with MNb, White should probably insert the 'pair' h3/h5 since it weakens the important f5 square.
I like the idea 8.h3 h5 9.Be3 but did you consider 9...Bf6 ? Then 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 is similar to the line given by Burgess in 101 Opening surprises (8.Be3 Bf6 9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5) The point being here that White cannot play as in Furhoff-Eriksson, Helsingborg 1991 (9.Qd2 Bxh4 10.gxh4 Qxh4+ 11.Bf2 will (with h3/h5 included) be met by g4-g3.)
I thought the last piece of analysis (Emms' 10.Nf5 etc.) was by Ben Hague.
  
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MNb
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Re: Quaade/Piercegambit
Reply #4 - 09/21/04 at 18:56:05
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First I want to draw attention to some transpositions.
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3
A) 3... g5 4.d4 Bg7 5.Nc3 d6 6.g3 if White plays the Rosentreter Gambit.
B) 3... g5 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.d4 d6 6.g3 if White plays the Quaade Gambit.
C) 3... d6 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.g3 if Black plays the Fischer Defense .
In all cases, Black can transpose to the Becker Defense with 5/6...h6.
So in Nightingale-Ruggeri Laderchi, 2001, 8.Ng1 has been played.

After 6.g3 the sequence Nc6 7.Bb5 has been mentioned in another thread, Jensen-Edoo, 2004.

6.g3 g4 7.Nh4 f3
7...Nc6 8.Bb5 f3 9.d5 a6 10.Ba4 b5 (10.. Bxc3+ 11bxc3 b5 12Bb3 Ne5 13a4 and White breaks the blockade) 11Nxb5 axb5 12Bxb5 Nge7 13dxc6 o-o 14o-o Be6 Furhoff-Sandor,1994, 15a4 Db8 16h3!? with interesting play.

8.Be3
My idea is immediately 8.h3 and only after h5 9.Be3, as Ne7 10.Qd2 Ng6 11.Nxg6 is an improved version of Furhoff-Petran,1994. Again 11.Nf5 is possible.

8...Ne7
An improvement might be 8...Nc6 9Qd2 Nce7 10h3 h5 11o-o-o c6 Kennaugh-Bellin,1998 and now I think 12.Bf4 idea 13.e5 is best.
In Furhoff-Aleksandrov,1995, I think 12...Bd7 13.Nf5 Nxf5 14.exf5 o-o-o slightly better for Black; of course 13...Bxf5 14.exf5 o-o-o is possible too.

9.Qd2 Ng6 10.Nf5!
Emms' idea.

10...Bxf5 11.exf5 Ne7 12.Bg5! f6 13.Bf4 Nxf5 14.o-o-o
with decent compensation. If I remember well, this is Glenn Snow's analysis.
It seems that Kennaugh-Bellin,1998, is critical.
Inserting 8.h3 h5 usually leads to transpositions to the games mentioned by TalJechin. But I think this way White restricts Black's possibilities.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TalJechin
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Re: Quaade/Piercegambit
Reply #3 - 09/20/04 at 02:46:03
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Interesting, though I'm not convinced white is happy yet...

But I spent about an hour on making a brief outline of what's going on here. Would you agree with the following conclusions?

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 Bg7 5.Nc3 d6 6.g3 g4 

[ 6...h6 7.gxf4 g4 8.Rg1! Bf8 9.Be3 gxf3 10.Qxf3 Ne7 11.0-0-0 with compensation Nightingale,D-Ruggeri Laderchi,G/friendly email tourney 2001.] 

7.Nh4 f3 

[ 7...Nc6 8.Bb5 f3 9.d5 

( 9.Be3 a6 10.Ba4 b5 11.Bb3 Nf6 12.Qd3 Bd7 13.0-0-0 unclear Notkin,M-Kazhgaleyev,M/playchess.com INT 2004.) 

9...a6 10.Ba4 b5 ( 10...Bxc3+?! 11.bxc3 b5 12.dxc6 bxa4) 11.Nxb5 axb5 12.Bxb5 Nge7 13.dxc6 0-0 14.0-0 Be6 15.c4 Qb8 with at least compensation Furhoff,J-Sandor,C/Budapest 1994.] 

8.Be3 Nc6 

[ 8...Ne7 9.Qd2 

a) 9...Ng6 10.Nxg6 ( 10.Nf5!?) 10...hxg6 11.0-0-0 Nc6 12.Nd5 Be6 13.Bb5 a6 =+ Furhoff,J-Petran,P/Budapest 1994.; 

b) 9...c6 10.0-0-0 Qa5 11.Bh6 Bf6 12.Kb1 Ng6 Sokolov,A-Mikhailov,S/Nizhnij Novgorod 1999. 13.Nf5!? Bxf5 14.exf5 Qxf5 15.Ne4 with attack.; 

c) 9...Nd7?! 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Bd3 Be6 12.h3 h5 13.Rde1 += Shulman,Y-Kamberi,S/20th NAO, Stillwater USA 2001.] 

9.Qd2 Nce7 10.0-0-0 

[ 10.h3!? h5 11.0-0-0 c6 12.Bd3 Qa5 13.hxg4 hxg4 14.Bc4?! b5 15.Bb3 b4 16.Na4 Nf6 17.e5 Ne4 18.Qe1 d5 -/+ Kennaugh,C-Bellin,R/England 1999. ] 

10...c6 11.Bd3 Qa5 12.Rhe1 b5 13.Nf5 Bxf5 14.exf5 0-0-0 15.Bg5 b4 16.Ne4 Furhoff-Aleksandrov Stockholm 1995. 16...f6 17.Bf4 Nxf5 unclear
  
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MNb
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Re: Quaade/Piercegambit
Reply #2 - 09/19/04 at 18:51:50
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By not playing Bc4, eg 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.d4 d6 6.g3!?
  
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Re: Quaade/Piercegambit
Reply #1 - 09/19/04 at 01:37:34
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How does white avoid a transposition to the Hanstein/Philidor complex after e.g. 4...Bg7 - ?  Undecided
  
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MNb
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Quaade/Piercegambit
09/18/04 at 17:29:54
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In the KG/Modern Variation thread Dragonslayer has posted some analysis of the Pierce Gambit. I have a question for him and others.

After 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Pf3 g5 4.Pc3 Pc6 5.d4 g4 6.Lc4 gxf3 7.0-0 Pxd4 8.Lxf4 Lc5 9.Le3 Pe2+ 10.Kh1 Lxe3 11.Lxf7+ Kxf7 12.Dxe2 Lg5 13.Dxf3+ Kg7 14.Df7+ Kh6 15.g4 Pf6 16.Tf3 Pxg4 17.Th3+ Lh4
what about 18.Tf1 Dg5 19.Tf5 Pe5 20.Txg5 Pxf7 21.Tgg3 Pg5 22.Txh4+ Kg6 23.Tf4 ?
I do not know how to judge this position. White will remain some material down (probably a pawn) but Black's pieces are not the most active of the board.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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