Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/24/07 at 12:45:33:


On a forum such as this how many anecdotes must one give to illustrate a point?

Very well I will give another instructive fragment to illustrate why I prefer an early c6 rather than e6:

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 Nbd7 4. Qd3 h6 5. Bh4 c6 6. e4?? [Eminently playable after 5...e6 as shown in the Conquest game given earlier, but here it just loses] dxe4 7. Nxe4 Nxe4 8. Qxe4 Qa5+! [The key tactic] 9. c3 g5 10. Bg3 f5 And Black wins a piece.

I hope the above example shows how devious and effective an early c6 can be against the Veresov.

Toppy

realpolitik wrote on 08/21/07 at 18:45:41:


Is it really such a bad French for White. Witness the following instructive: 

[Event "XLVIII TCh-POR"]
[Site "Evora POR"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Conquest,S"]
[Black "Sokolov,And1"]
[Round "3"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2534"]
[BlackElo "2589"]
[ECO "A45"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 Nbd7 4. Qd3 h6 5. Bh4 e6 6. e4 dxe4 7. Nxe4 Be7 8. Nxf6+ Bxf6 9. Bxf6
Qxf6 10. Nf3 O-O 11. Qe3 c5 12. O-O-O b6 13. Bb5 cxd4 14. Rxd4 Qe7 15. g4 Nf6 16. g5 hxg5 17. Qxg5 Bb7 18. Rg1 g6 19. Rd7 Qxd7 20. Bxd7 Nxd7 21. Nh4 Be4 22. Rg4 Bf5 23. Nxf5 exf5 24. Qxf5 Rad8 25. Qg5 Nc5 26. Rh4 Rfe8 27. b3 Kg7 28. Qh6+ Kf6 29. Rf4+ Ke6 30. Qg7 Rf8 31. Rf6+ Ke7 32. Rxg6 Ne6 33. Qf6+ Ke8 34. Rg4 Rd5 35. h4 1-0

See what I mean.

Much more effective in my opinion is 5...c6 [instead of 5...e6] intending moves like b5 and Qa5 in anticipation of White's intended 0-0-0.

Toppy  

BlkSabb:

Good catch!  I was so wrapped up in the Veresov theme that I didn't even look at realpolitik's second move.  I just presumed he was still talking about the Veresov.  Of course, it's rather difficult to play 2.Nf3, 3.Bg5 and 4.f3.

It seems that 3...Nbd7 has always (well, for the last quarter-century or so at least) been considered the main line, but not clearly better than some other moves.

I know of a GM and an IM (Jonny Hector and Jakob Vang Glud) who sometimes play (3...Nbd7) 4. Qd3.  Rizzitano gives a few bits on it (he likes 4...h6 5. Bh4 e6).  It seems a bit surprising that ECO (from 2004) doesn't mention it (NCO, which came out 5 years earlier, does; its main line is 4...c5!?).

I have an old book on the Veresov by Chess Digest (1984) which calls 3.Nbd7 the main line.  (Pls bear with me, I have to translate it from descriptive notation.)  One old game, Smyslov-Geller (USSR 1977) continued:

1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Nbd7 4.Qd3!? (my mark) e6 5.e4 de4 (Suetin recommends Bb4!?) 6.Nxe4 Be7 7.Nf6 Bf6 (Nf6 is probably slightly better) 8.Bf6 Nf6 9.Nf3 0-0 10.Be2 b6 11.0-0 (Chess Digest suggests 11.0-0-0!) Bb7 12.Rfd1 Be4 13.Qb3 with an edge to White.


Realpolitik's second line (4.f3 with 6...e5) had already been played by several strong players.  In 1984, the state of the art line was:

7.de5 Qa5 8.Bf6 gf6 9.e6 fe6 10.Bc4 Bb4 11.Nge2 Ne5 12.Bb3 and then Black has a choice between 12...Rg8 and Bd7.  Both moves give Black reasonable play according to Chess Digest (1984).  Some of the analysis is from Gufeld who drew as Black against Rosetto in Camaguey, 1974.

There's no verbal description of the moves and I distrust dusty lines like these.  However, White would have to work hard to find serious improvements.  I'll check my database later if anyone is still interested.


Personally, I like the dangerous Qd3 maneuver for White in a practical game.  I've seen a local master rack up win after win against experts by playing this way.  He supposedly trained with Spassky and Krogius before being sent off for being criminally insane.  (He is a Doctor of Psychology.)

My biggest problem with 3...c6 is not that it's bad, but it seems to play into White's plan.  Maybe Black can play 3...Bf5 and only then c6.  The idea behind this move order is that it stops both e4 (after ...e6) and Qd3 (immediately).  I used to have success with it, but I currently just go into French lines and do well enough. (1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4 Be7 is a Classical French.)

Yeah right. They must be joking, if they don't seem to agree with mine opinion, mustn't they.
On the other hand, there are quite some examples around of players choosing some non-standard opening line and getting away with it. But perhaps we can also attribute this to the superior sense of humor of their adversaries, not resenting to lose a game in the least if there's such a good laugh in it.

Well, I just saw this game Morozevitch-Kasparov : 1. Nc3, ... to which Kasparov replied ... c5. 
The commentator writes : As pointed out by Kasparov after the game, "It's a clever choice as I cannot play 1 ..d5 as Alexander can play 2 d4 with a reversed Chigorin his favourite - and extra move!" 
Not exactly a condemnation of the Veresov/reversed Chigorin, quite on the contrary, and coming from someone who knows something about these things.