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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tarrasch books??? (Read 16035 times)
MNb
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #15 - 02/10/05 at 21:18:01
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Well, the IZ is not everybody's cup of tea. It would be boring, if everybody played the same, wouldn't it? I will post in the Leningrad vs IZ thread another idea in my pet opening - just to show what complications Black might cause. These complications degrade the Tarrasch to a quiet, solid opening.
"My problem is to beat weaker opponents". I do not think, that the Stonewall is the right choice then. This reminds me of a lovely comment from David Bronstein, too long to quote here totally: "It is hard to believe, that the Stonewall is to prefer to the less committing move d7-d6, only because White easily can play e2-e4."
If readers are interested, I will translate it completely.

Until now there is no conflict between my girlfriend and Iljin-Zjenevsky - matter of time management. But if I ever have to choose, then I really don't know.

Alumbrado is correct: the IZ is a subsystem of the Classical Dutch. Black plays f5, Nf6, e6, d6, Be7, o-o.
The Classical Dutch also contains lines with Bb4 and/or the queen's fianchetto. Many authors also include the Stonewall and the Alekhine Variation.

Indeed, it is my ultimate dream to scare all White players the pants off with my pet system. Until this dream has come true, I will experiment with 1.d4 myself.

BTW, the Tarrasch is considered inferior since the first match Karpov-Kasparov,1984. In fact, I think that the IZ provides Black more winning chances than the Tarrasch, but I do not mind if Jonorigolo disagrees. As Rolf Schwarz already wrote: Jeder soll nach seiner Facon selig werden und sich Chancen suchen, wie und wo er es für richtig hält. Maybe Tracke or somebody else can translate this in proper English?
  

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alumbrado
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #14 - 02/10/05 at 07:43:21
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Quote:
Classical Dutch...Uhm... 
I don't really like it. 
I need something to get complicated play, not inferior. 
I  have always found it  really unsound. 


I await with interest MNb's response ...
  

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Jonorigolo
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #13 - 02/10/05 at 06:44:23
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Ok...
Classical Dutch...Uhm...
I don't really like it.
I need something to get complicated play, not inferior.
I  have always found it  really unsound.

Nah...I think i'm gonna stick to my Tarrasch defence idea.

So i'm gonna order Meeting 1d4.

I should have done so some weeks earlier, so as to be able to play it in the tournament in which i take part next week.

I'll have to stick to QGD or Stonewall...Sad
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #12 - 02/10/05 at 05:54:32
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Hehe, you haven't checked out many of the posts on this site Smiley

The Ilyin-Zhenevsky is often called the Classical Dutch - (although I seem to remember reading somewhere - possibly on the forum somewhere - that there is a subtle distinction between the two or that the I-Z is a variation of the Classical or something).

It has replaced women as the principal love of MNb's life ... to the enormous advantage of anybody using this site to learn about the Dutch!

It sometimes seems as if he will not rest until everyone has given up every other move except 1.e4 for fear of meeting this set-up ...
  

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Jonorigolo
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #11 - 02/10/05 at 02:56:44
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@ Mnb: Iljin Zjenevsky??? What's that?
I never heard about it.

I plan to enter the Tarrasch by playing 1.d4-e6, so that I may transpose to the French or play a Stonewall/QGD.
  
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MNb
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #10 - 02/09/05 at 21:17:00
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I can hear Alumbrado grumble already, but when it comes to beat weaker opponents, the Iljin Zjenevsky might be an idea? If you already play the French, 1.d4 e6 is a good option.
Concerning the French Exchange, opposite castling provides dynamical play. Then you only must find something against 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4.
  

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Jonorigolo
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #9 - 02/09/05 at 07:14:05
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Ok Alumbrado...

Thank you for the advice...

{Off-topic mode ON}
The french defense would just be a perfect weapon against weaker players if only there wasn't so many French Exchange players.

I find it really  hard to beat white in this variation.
So i play the Najdorf and am thinking about going into Kalashnikov-mode
{Off-topic mode OFF}
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #8 - 02/09/05 at 05:18:13
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Quote:
My problem is to beat weaker opponents: French Defense and QGD are very solid and i'm looking for more complicated openings. 


I think the Tarrasch is an excellent choice for taking on weaker opponents.  BTW, I think the French is good for those purposes too, but if you want something sharper, you might want to think about the Alekhine?

Quote:
I read somewhere that the authors of Meeting 1.d4 have a poor English...Is it bad enough for me not understand what they mean?


No, the English in Meeting 1.d4 is just fine.  I think Aagaard is completely fluent in English and in any case it has a British publisher and editors.  Really, I can't think of a single instance in the book where there is a problem.


  

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Jonorigolo
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #7 - 02/09/05 at 03:02:00
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I think that's why grischuk went on to try 9...c4, as shown by a survey on this variation in a recent NIC Yearbook.

I need a book in order to acquire some general knowledge about the Tarrasch and some theory: i will use the book to learn the offbeat or little-played lines.

Then i'll use my database to study main lines.

Theory doesn't play too big a role at my level and when i meet stronger player, i have already a good repertoire.

My problem is to beat weaker opponents: French Defense and QGD are very solid and i'm looking for more complicated openings.

And i never play 1...Nf6 against 1.d4 because i am myself a Tromp Player, and am convinced that the Tromp wins for White.

So the Tarrasch came to my mind quite naturally, by a process of elimination.

I read somewhere that the authors of Meeting 1.d4 have a poor English...Is it bad enough for me not understand what they mean? I'm french and as you can read my English is quite bad too, so i wouldn't want to be mislead because of some odd sentences i couldn't understand.

Thank you all for your help and advice.

Jono
  
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #6 - 02/08/05 at 20:41:51
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I already own "Meeting 1.d4" and it's an interesting read.  I was thinking in taking the Tarrasch as my second defence but I gave up. The problem of the Tarrasch is that if white knows the theory, he can play lines where black have no chance of winning. The drawback for white it's that his chances in these lines are, in general, quite microscopical. I'll give an example:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.g3 Nf6 7.Bg2 Be7 8.O-O O-O 9.Bg5 cxd4 (I don't believe in the 9... c4 lines) 10.Nxd4 h6 11.Be3 Re8  (This is THE main line of Tarrasch) 12.Qa4 Bd7

One problematic line for black is 13.Rfd1 (Aagaard gives a ! to this move) and now there is only two realistic answers:

a) 13... Na5 (Aagaard not even mention this line) 14.Qc2 Nc4 15.Nxd5! as in Lautier-Grischuk, Eighien les Bain, 2001. If a highly talented 2700+ player like Grischuk had trouble in the resulting ending, it's best for us mortals to stay away from this line;

b) 13... Nb4 is probably black's best bet (recommended by Aagaard) and it's pretty uninspiring. After the rather forced sequence 14.Qb3 a5 15.Nxd5 (!, according to Aagaard) Nfxd5 16.Bxd5 Nxd5 17.Qxd5 Ba4 18.Qxd8 Raxd8 19.b3 Bd7, we have a ending where black have no chance of winning. This line already ocurred in a few games and black active pieces gave the draw. In general white played 20.Rd3 (a computer suggestion) and after 20... Bf6 white pieces were tied in a very tight knot. But I think that 20.Nf3!? (never played before and as far as I know never recommended before) is a interesting try: there is the threat 21.Bb6 and the a1 rook is not pinned along the a1-h8 diagonal. After any move from the black's light squared bishop, he can swap a pair of rooks and play his B at b6, e. g. 20... Bb5 21.Rxd8 Rxd8 22.Bb6.

In this 20.Nf3 line, there is much less pressure on white and it seems that black active pieces it's not sufficient for the pawn. But I didn't analysed it in detail and I don't think that white plus, if she have any at all, is that great. But one thing is clear: black will NEVER win in this line and he's fighting for the draw. Look the comment by Aargaard about line b): "... it is normally more comfortable to have the extra pawn in these kind of positions, as opposed to having to prove the compensation". I quite agree!


Regards,
ranjk
  
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Markovich
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #5 - 02/08/05 at 11:25:31
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Quote:
The book is good, and the Tarrasch is quite a good choice for club players imho - a lot of White players are prepared to 'wing it' a bit against the Tarrasch for some reason and don't really know the subtleties of move order and piece placement.  Black can get surprisingly active if White either plays too passively or overestimates his position.  It really requires a good 'feel'.


I agree completely.  I ask my students to play the Tarrasch because Black gets a more or less open position (eventually even in the symmetrical variation) with decent activity for his pieces.   This does imply that they have to handle the "white" side of IQP and hanging c and d-pawns, but I don't think that doing that requires a terribly high level of sophistication.  There are a few simple ideas that go a long way, such as, be reluctant to simplify, watch for opportunities to push the d-pawn, station a minor piece on a square protected by the d-pawn.

A big bonus to having this defense in ones repertoire is that it's good against so many closed systems.
  

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alumbrado
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #4 - 02/08/05 at 10:09:28
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The book is good, and the Tarrasch is quite a good choice for club players imho - a lot of White players are prepared to 'wing it' a bit against the Tarrasch for some reason and don't really know the subtleties of move order and piece placement.  Black can get surprisingly active if White either plays too passively or overestimates his position.  It really requires a good 'feel'.
  

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Jonorigolo
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #3 - 02/08/05 at 10:03:44
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Thank you all!

I think i'm gonna order Meeting 1.e4 on Amazon, because I think Schiller's book may be too basic for me (2090 National French Rating) and I have forgotten most of my German...

Does AAgaard provide lots of original ideas and explains plans and ideas or is this book more of a "database dump"? I read good reviews of Meeting 1d4 but sometimes reviewers may not be really objective...

I already own 'Winning pawn structures' and find it quite interesting so it may help me grasp the Tarrasch defense subtleties.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #2 - 02/07/05 at 08:19:50
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There is a book in German by Kielhack, but it is several years old.  Also the writing is not your standard chess German, but rather quite idomatic and difficult (for me at least) to read.  It is not really essential to have.

But Aagard's book is rather up-to-date, and I think that beyond that, all one needs is an up-to-date data base (Grischuk upholds this defense) and a good understanding of how to play IQP positions.  I would highly recommend Baburin's "Winning Pawn Structures," which treats IQP exclusively.

I do also second Ed Gaillard's view that Schiller's book on this subject is one of the few Schiller books actually worth looking at.
  

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Ed Gaillard
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Re: Tarrasch books???
Reply #1 - 02/04/05 at 10:39:02
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Eric Schiller's _Complete Defence to Queen Pawn Openings_ is a very good introductory book about the Tarrasch.  Schiller gets a lot of criticism for writing terrible books, and it's mostly justified, but this one is actually good.  He's played the Tarrasch all his life, he loves it and understands it well.  This is the best book for players under 1800 Elo; above that, _Meeting d4_  is as good or better.
  
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